Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

The problem with the Russian engine theory is the complete lack of news coming from the Russian side.

We had credible reports regarding the original AL-31FN deal TWO YEARS prior to the J-10 entering service. Both the engine variant and number of engines purchased were known by 2001.

http://forum.keypublishing.com/archive/index.php/t-4563.html
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We had announcements from both Salut (the manufacturer) and Rosoboronexport concerning the AL-31FN Series 3 deal in 2011.

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/676406.shtml

"The contract will involve 140 to 150 engines, but it has not been confirmed by authorities in Beijing," Alexander A. Drozhzhin, the head of press for SALUT, told the Global Times at the Aviation Expo in Beijing on Wednesday.

The Russian state arms exporter, Rosoboronexport (ROE), announced in July a sale of 123 SALUT-made AL-31FN turbofan engines to China for $500 million, the Washington Times reported late August.


There have been NO REPORTS concerning the Al-31FM2 since the bench tests in 2012.

http://aviationweek.com/awin/some-tests-complete-sukhoi-engine-upgrade

Even the recent Su-35 deal was widely reported by the media. So why the sudden silence regarding the J-20 engine? The J-20 made its maiden flight in 2011 and has now entered service in 2017. Where was the engine announcement from Russia throughout this span of six years? Even a license produced engine should be announced. India produces plenty of things under license from Russia. It is all announced.

Yes, J-20 first publicly flown on 2011, perhaps, even earlier than that. And AL-31FN M2 was announced on 2012. Just announced, not developed, not tested, not produced, not delivered, and not installed on J-20.

The so call theory(actually, wild speculation) that J-20 is running on a specialized version of AL-31FN, M2, co-developed with China is, irresponsible and ridiculous, to the extreme.

It is completely evidence-free, fact-free, and filled with hot-air, only.

 

[Deino]

The problem with the Russian engine theory is the complete lack of news coming from the Russian side.

We had credible reports regarding the original AL-31FN deal TWO YEARS prior to the J-10 entering service. Both the engine variant and number of engines purchased were known by 2001.
....

Not necessarily ! How long did it take until the first official statements concerning the first AL-31FN for the J-10s were leaked and reported ? We long knew the J-10 quite well, everyone with the slightest sense of logic knew it was an AL-31-variant even if not the exact one. As such I think it is not that far fetched that there is a secret clause of the contract to keep calm on this specialised engine.

Yes, J-20 first publicly flown on 2011, perhaps, even earlier than that. And AL-31FN M2 was announced on 2012. Just announced, not developed, not tested, not produced, not delivered, and not installed on J-20.

The so call theory(actually, wild speculation) that J-20 is running on a specialized version of AL-31FN, M2, co-developed with China is, irresponsible and ridiculous, to the extreme.

It is completely evidence-free, fact-free, and filled with hot-air, only.

Exactly .. and therefore that AL-31FNM2 based design entered testing on the J-20 only with the true prototypes '2011' and later ones.

 

[Asoka]

"Exactly .. and therefore that AL-31FNM2 based design entered testing on the J-20 only with the true prototypes '2011' and later ones."

AL-31FNM2 was simply an announcement by the Manufacture that it intend this develop this variant of the engine. It was not an announcement, that it was finished and ready for delivery.

How the hell, does the Russian managed, to announce the intended development of a new variant, of the AL-31FNM2 engine, on 2012, and able to, immediately, deliver to China to install on J-20.

Actually, to be installed on J-20, in 2010, even before its intended development was announced, on 2012.

Can this Russian Engine really do Time Travelling?

Excuse me, where are the official/semi official announcements or news to support your utterly rubbish claims?

And does it means, this mystical AL-31FNM2, has the Dry thrust (TWR > 1, that is greater than the flying weight of j-20) to allow J-20, to do Sustain Vertical Climbing, without turning on the Afterburner, as witnessed by thousands of speculators, and watched by millions of youtube viewers?

And if you say AL-31FN-M2, is powerful enough, to have Dry Thrust, TWR > 1, where is your support/link/source for this claim?

 

[Deino]

Once again ... no fighter needs a thrust of +210kN for a climb and there was NOT that astonishing sustained vertical climbing. It was a brief climb after a high-speed pass and then banking out ... but I know I'm still sticking in the sand !

 

[Asoka]

Many fighters can do a Vertical Climb with their AB turned on, but name a few, that can, without the use of AB, to sustain your silly claim that is "not all that impressive".

"no fighter needs a thrust of +210kN for a climb"

It must have Dry Thrust > 210kN, if it's empty weight + 3-4 tons of fuel is > 24 tons, to do a sustain vertical climb, without the use of Afterburner.

May be this fact, is too difficult, for you to digest.

How could the Chinese, began to design, produced, and fly the J-20, years before even, the Russian had announced the development of AL-31FN-M2?

OMG! I can't even, wrap my head, on this simply ridiculous claim! My head just want to explode, to think about, how could someone seriously entertain, this Russian Engine Theory for J-20.

 

[Deino]

...
OMG! I can't even, wrap my head, on this simply ridiculous claim! My head just want to explode, to think about, how could someone seriously entertain, this Russian Engine Theory for J-20.

Like I said before ... if You only take the sources You like and ignore the facts You probably end up with that feeling; I'm really sorry for You.

But again: Life is sometimes funny and ironic.

 

[Asoka]

"But again: Life is sometimes funny and ironic. "

my head exploded, by the irony, folks.

 

[nang2]

my head exploded, folks.

Did you take a selfie?

 

[j20blackdragon]

Let's continue looking at the facts. We've had two statements concerning the J-20 engines within the past few months. It's important to look at the direct quotes from the professionals. Other comments citing unnamed sources are a waste of time.

Statement 1:

http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/1015727.shtml

"The J-20 is a locally made fifth-generation stealth fighter jet which uses a Chinese engine," military expert Yin Zhuo confirmed in a telephone conversation with CCTV on Nov 1.

"The WS-15 turbofan engine is now under development, which will improve the performance of the J-20 after becoming operational," Yin said.

Statement 2:

http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2017-03/13/content_28526581.htm

"It will not take a long time for our fifth-generation combat plane to have China-made engines," said Chen Xiangbao, vice-president of the AECC Beijing Institute of Aeronautical Materials. Chen, also a member of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, was referring to the J-20 stealth fighter.

"The engine's development is proceeding well. We also have begun to design a next-generation aviation engine with a thrust-to-weight ratio that is much higher than that of current types," he said.

Yin Zhuo is a Rear Admiral.

Chen Xiangbao is a scientist in materials science working at BIAM.

Both sets of statements are open to interpretation. Both men seem to agree that the WS-15 is under development. However, the statements concerning the J-20's CURRENT ENGINES appear to be contradictory.

 

[Asoka]

Did you take a selfie?

Yes, that was me. My brain is dead now.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Exactly .. and therefore that AL-31FNM2 based design entered testing on the J-20 only with the true prototypes '2011' and later ones.

All reports regarding the AL-31FM2 are from 2012.

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1459

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1615

The engine was bench tested in 2012. There are no further reports of flight tests or state certification by Russia. There are no reports of this engine being inducted by the Russian Air Force, or sold to China.

What evidence do we have that this phantom engine is currently powering the J-20? It's important for both sides of the debate to provide supporting evidence to back up claims.

 

[Asoka]

All reports regarding the AL-31FM2 are from 2012.

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1459

http://www.salut.ru/ViewTopic.php?Id=1615

The engine was bench tested in 2012. There are no further reports of flight tests or state certification by Russia. There are no reports of this engine being inducted by the Russian Air Force, or sold to China.

What evidence do we have that this phantom engine is currently powering the J-20? It's important for both sides of the debate to provide supporting evidence to back up claims.

Absolutely agreed.

If ordinary PDF members are not allowed to make evidence-free, fact-free, logic-free claims or speculations, neither should the thread Moderator, allow himself to do that, nor should he allow any other members to make such claims, simply because they support the Moderator's position.

 

[Ultima Thule]

Forget about the 4S requirements, J-20 can just have Stealth and Superior Sensor fusion like F-35, and fly just like that flying pig (can't climb, can't turn, can't run, and can't fight). And call it a Fifth generation Fighter like F-22 and T-50.

Bro F-35 is massively overweight and also its can't supercrusie because of its engine which is high bypass engine, whereas F-22 and T50 uses low bypass engine which is supercrusie capable here it is the difference between low bypass and high bypass engines
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0033.shtml

Once again ... no fighter needs a thrust of +210kN for a climb and there was NOT that astonishing sustained vertical climbing. It was a brief climb after a high-speed pass and then banking out ... but I know I'm still sticking in the sand !

You are speechless and answer less @Asok is right Asok brother please carry on

It must have Dry Thrust > 210kN

But this is absolutely wrong bro at that point, do you know what is dry thrust? even world most powerful military can't reach goal 210KN dry thrust here it is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-32
And here is a definition of dry thrust
"Dry thrust usually means the non-augumented thrust i.e. thrust without the use of afterburners or liquid injection. The maximum thrust produced by jet engines w/o afterburner is sometimes called military thrust."

 

[ChineseToTheBone]

So just what is the possibility that it has been flying with the Shenyang WS-10G turbofan engine? I read that in particular is a TVC variant for the J-20.

 

[Asoka]

Bro F-35 is massively overweight and also its can't supercrusie because of its engine which is high bypass engine, whereas F-22 and T50 uses low bypass engine which is supercrusie capable here it is the difference between low bypass and high bypass engines
http://www.aerospaceweb.org/question/propulsion/q0033.shtml


You are speechless and answer less @Asok is right Asok brother please carry on

But this is absolutely wrong bro at that point, do you know what is dry thrust? even world most powerful military can't reach goal 210KN dry thrust here it is
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kuznetsov_NK-32
And here is a definition of dry thrust
"Dry thrust usually means the non-augumented thrust i.e. thrust without the use of afterburners or liquid injection. The maximum thrust produced by jet engines w/o afterburner is sometimes called military thrust."

"Bro F-35 is massively overweight and also its can't supercrusie because of its engine which is high bypass engine, whereas F-22 and T50 uses low bypass engine which is supercrusie capable here it is the difference between low bypass and high bypass engines"

I was being sarcastic, when I said Supersonic Cruise is not important. Please Read between my lines.

Ops, That was a typo, , I mean total thrust or wet thrust of +210kN. Thanks for catching it.

"@Asok is right Asok brother please carry on"

Thanks Bro. I really appreciate your moral support.