Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Asoka]

I don't know about that claim. It has a larger air frame than the F-22 while having much less powerful engines. In addition, the USAF has operated stealth jets for at least 3 decades (4 if you count the SR-71). Even as far back as Vietnam War, the American pilots were aware of the need to present minimal radar return to the enemies when flying strike missions. J-20 represents a major leap forward for China, but certainly calling it an unrivaled air dominance machine is far fetched.

"It has a larger air frame than the F-22"
This is intentional. J-20 will have a much greater range, able to supercruise much longer.

"while having much less powerful engines."
This is temporary. By 2020, J-20 will be equipped with the WS-15 engine which can produce 18 Ton of power, whereas, F-22's engine can produce 16 ton each.

"the USAF has operated stealth jets for at least 3 decades"
That is true. US is the pioneer in stealth technology. But don't forget there is 4S in 5th generation fighters. Stealth is probably the least important factors, if both dueling planes are also stealth.

"but certainly calling it an unrivaled air dominance machine is far fetched."
J-20 is unrivaled because it combined F-22's amazing 4S capability with F-35's advanced and highly integrated avionics, and super long range.

Remember, F-22's central computer is based on PC 486, early 1990's era technology. It has 660MB of memory. My cheap $300 laptop in 2005 has a Pentium 4 processor and 1GB of memory. And F-22 is no longer in production, and no longer being developed further.

And F-35 is grossly overweight, It “Can't Turn, Can't Climb, Can't Run”. It will be clubbed like baby seals in combat.

 

[Deino]

...

https://twitter.com/x/status/801682041074958337

 

[j20blackdragon]

Remember, F-22's central computer is based on PC 486, early 1990's era technology. It has 660MB of memory. My cheap $300 laptop in 2005 has a Pentium 4 processor and 1GB of memory. And F-22 is no longer in production, and no longer being developed further.

Though initially conceived as state-of-the-art technology in the early 1990s, some of the Raptor’s antiquated processors run at 25Mhz. That’s about 56 times slower than the multi-core chips in the iPhone 6.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...advanced-stealth-jet-flies-on-1990s-tech.html

It took the Air Force more than a decade to equip the Raptor with the AIM-9X because of the F-22’s obtuse avionics architecture—which is exceptionally difficult to upgrade. Even this recent addition of the AIM-9X is a jury-rigged interim measure called Update 5, which also includes an automatic ground collision avoidance system.

While the new software upgrade allows Raptor pilots to take advantage of the performance of the new missile, the jet’s targeting display will not show the correct symbology for the AIM-9X. Instead, the weapon will have the same displays as the current AIM-9M and pilots will have to compensate for the difference.

The situation will not be rectified until a new enhanced stores management system (ESMS) is added to the frontline Block 30 and Block 35 Raptors in 2018 with the Increment 3.2B hardware upgrade. With Inc. 3.2B, the F-22 will display the proper symbology for the AIM-9X. But even then, the F-22 will not have a helmet-mounted cueing system—which was deleted during the jet’s problematic development program in the late 1990s.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...e-f-22-stealth-fighter-more-lethal-ever-15434

 

[Asoka]

Though initially conceived as state-of-the-art technology in the early 1990s, some of the Raptor’s antiquated processors run at 25Mhz. That’s about 56 times slower than the multi-core chips in the iPhone 6.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...advanced-stealth-jet-flies-on-1990s-tech.html

It took the Air Force more than a decade to equip the Raptor with the AIM-9X because of the F-22’s obtuse avionics architecture—which is exceptionally difficult to upgrade. Even this recent addition of the AIM-9X is a jury-rigged interim measure called Update 5, which also includes an automatic ground collision avoidance system.

While the new software upgrade allows Raptor pilots to take advantage of the performance of the new missile, the jet’s targeting display will not show the correct symbology for the AIM-9X. Instead, the weapon will have the same displays as the current AIM-9M and pilots will have to compensate for the difference.

The situation will not be rectified until a new enhanced stores management system (ESMS) is added to the frontline Block 30 and Block 35 Raptors in 2018 with the Increment 3.2B hardware upgrade. With Inc. 3.2B, the F-22 will display the proper symbology for the AIM-9X. But even then, the F-22 will not have a helmet-mounted cueing system—which was deleted during the jet’s problematic development program in the late 1990s.

http://nationalinterest.org/blog/th...e-f-22-stealth-fighter-more-lethal-ever-15434

"the F-22 will not have a helmet-mounted cueing system—which was deleted during the jet’s problematic development program in the late 1990s."

This is a significant deficiency for the F-22. All major new fighters since 2000's have helmet-mounted cueing system - F-35, J-10, J-20, Su-27, Su-30, Su-35, Typhoon, Rafael, etc . . .

Helmet-mounted cueing system allow the aiming of the missile much easier, simply look at the target to acquire. It allows the missile to shoot forward and turn around and fly over the pilot's shoulder. A truly effective combat technique. Many pilots were "shoot down" during exercises while completely unaware they were locked on. This is were the F-35's designer's confidence of "let the missile do the turning" came from.

If the F-22 were allowed to continue develop, it's electronic capability would have look like F-35 and have the long range of J-20.

 

[Asoka]

China successfully fires radical 300+ mile range hypersonic missile that would put key parts of US air operations at risk

http://www.nextbigfuture.com/2016/11/china-successfully-fires-radical-300.html

VLRAAM Putting US refueling and electronic warfare planes at risks messes with ALL US Air operation strategies

The gains in range and speed of the VLRAAM pose another significant risk to the concepts of the U.S. military's "Third Offset." U.S. operations are highly dependent on assets like aerial tankers, dedicated electronic warfare aircraft, and AEW&C. For example, without aerial tankers, the relatively short range of the F-35s would become even more of a liability in long range operations in the South China Seas and Taiwan Straits. Similarly, without AEW&C aircraft, F-22s would have to use onboard radars more, raising their risk of detection. Even for stealthy tanker platforms like the planned MQ-25 Stingray drone and proposed KC-Z tanker will be vulnerable to VLRAAMs if detected by emerging dedicated anti-stealth systems such as the Divine Eagle drone and Yuanmeng airship

 

[Asoka]

J-20 has been using WS-15 all along, in my opinion.

Folks, I know this sounds crazy and against the majority opinion here at PDF, but I dare to say J-20 has been using WS-15 all along since version 2001. I have been suspected that this is true since J-20 was first tested back in 2011. I don't have definite proof as I don't have an affirmative or confirmed picture of the complete WS-15.

The major reason against J-20 is using WS-15 right now is ASSUMED that WS-15 is not sufficiently mature yet, and so it is very risky to test it on a new aircraft. This seems to be a valid and sound assumption. But we don't know the status of WS-15. This was never officially revealed. And it can not be assumed that WS-15 has not been tested extensively on other aircraft and found satisfactory. So to assume that it is risky for J-20 to use WS-15 or WS-15 immature is just an assumption.

It could be already extensively tested on other aircrafts and found satisfactory, and then, in late 2010, it was installed on the J-20 version 2001 for the first flight.

No evidence or reports says WS-15 immature. I don't have direct evidence that WS-15 is mature or acceptable either, other than the time line of its development.

1.) 1990, WS-15 program initiated.
2.) 2005, the engine core tested.
3.) 2006, WS-15 design approved.
4.) 2009, Ground testing began.

By 2010 when it was being installed on J-20, 20 years have passed. This timeline is similar to the amount of time taken by US to develop F119 for F-22, and F-22 did not start testing with a substitute engine to be on the safe side, neither is T-50.

The major reason people think J-20 is using the AL-31 is because the nozzle petals look similar, but there is no reason that WS-15 nozzle petals can not look similar to AL-31's or any other engine of similar class. The core engine is what is important.

 

[Deino]

J-10 has been using WS-15 all along.

Folks, I know this sounds crazy and against the majority opinion here at PDF, but I dare to say J-10 has been using WS-15 all along since version 2001. I have been suspected that this is true since J-20 was first tested back in 2011. I don't have definite proof as I don't have an affirmative or confirmed picture of the complete WS-15.

The major reason against J-20 is using WS-15 right now is assumed that WS-15 is not sufficient mature yet, and so it is very risky to test it on a new aircraft. This seems to be a valid and sound assumption. But we don't know the status of WS-15. This was never officially revealed. And it can not be assumed that WS-15 has not been tested extensively on other aircraft and found satisfactory. So to assume that it is risky for J-20 to use WS-15 or WS-15 immature is just an assumption.

It could be already extensively tested on other aircrafts and found satisfactory, and then, in late 2010, it was installed on the J-20 version 2001 for the first flight.

No evidence or reports says WS-15 immature. I don't have direct evidence that WS-15 is mature or acceptable either, other than the time line of its development.

The major reason people think J-20 is using the AL-31 is because the nozzle petals look similar, but there is no reason that WS-15 nozzle petals can not look similar to AL-31's.

@Asok, do us a favour !

If You postulate such claims, You need at least some logic behind. I really know and fully understand Your dare, maybe crusade to persuade us here that each and every Chinese military aircraft is using the most modern hyper secret jet engine that are plain and simple faked to look like a WS-15.

Come on ....

We all know from the latest reports given my some big shrimps that the WS-15 was bench-tested in August last years (quite successfully) and following these reports these test would be transferred to the flying lab (soon) ... even more we know the numbers of AL-31FN S. 3 purchased in Russia and they fit more than nicely to the numbers of J-10B & C spotted so far.

There's absolutely no, really not a single logic reason to think the J-10C is using the WS-15.
And Your argument "No evidence or reports says WS-15 immature. I don't have direct evidence that WS-15 is mature or acceptable either, other than the time line of its development." is simply wrong. There is indeed NO reports that says it is immature, but that does not mean in return it is mature already.

Please, do not derail this forum to some sort of fan-boys-kindergarden as the Key-Forum already became ... and if You post such claims, then post them as Your opinion like "I think" ... but not as a fact like "J-10 has been using WS-15 all along".

Deino

 

[Asoka]

@Asok, do us a favour !

If You postulate such claims, You need at least some logic behind. I really know and fully understand Your dare, maybe crusade to persuade us here that each and every Chinese military aircraft is using the most modern hyper secret jet engine that are plain and simple faked to look like a WS-15.

Come on ....

We all know from the latest reports given my some big shrimps that the WS-15 was bench-tested in August last years (quite successfully) and following these reports these test would be transferred to the flying lab (soon) ... even more we know the numbers of AL-31FN S. 3 purchased in Russia and they fit more than nicely to the numbers of J-10B & C spotted so far.

There's absolutely no, really not a single logic reason to think the J-10C is using the WS-15.
And Your argument "No evidence or reports says WS-15 immature. I don't have direct evidence that WS-15 is mature or acceptable either, other than the time line of its development." is simply wrong. There is indeed NO reports that says it is immature, but that does not mean in return it is mature already.

Please, do not derail this forum to some sort of fan-boys-kindergarden as the Key-Forum already became ... and if You post such claims, then post them as Your opinion like "I think" ... but not as a fact like "J-10 has been using WS-15 all along".

Deino

More evidences will be coming. Time to sleep now. It is in Chinese if you or anyone can read it. I will attempt to summarize it in English, tomorrow.

https://kknews.cc/society/oqk3zm.html
https://kknews.cc/military/v43z3l.html
https://kknews.cc/entertainment/nopmq8.html
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5f54ff2b0102vw3z.html

 

[Deino]

Then good night and thanks for Your efforts !

 

[grey boy 2]

Awesome HD pictures of J-20 (credits to cnpl2014)

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[Asoka]

QUOTE="Asok, post: 8955061, member: 34841"]More evidences will be coming. Time to sleep now. It is in Chinese if you or anyone can read it. I will attempt to summarize it in English, tomorrow.

https://kknews.cc/society/oqk3zm.html
https://kknews.cc/military/v43z3l.html
https://kknews.cc/entertainment/nopmq8.html
http://blog.sina.com.cn/s/blog_5f54ff2b0102vw3z.html[/QUOTE]

As I promised last night, more evidences are coming that shows WS-15 was testing on J-20 since the beginning of the testing program.

In this page, https://kknews.cc/society/oqk3zm.html, an amazing photo was shown.

Some one was standing beside what looks like J-20's engine. The picture was taken on an entrance of a Highway, the article said. Very odd. Let's assume this is not some homemade full size model of J-20, on the way to a park for display.

On the lower bottom right picture, it shows the inside of the engine. It has 10 flaming links, while the AL-FN has 11. The three rinks of the AL-FN are equidistant to each other, while on this engine, the middle rink appears much closer to the inner rink than to the outer rink.

Both engines are remarkably similar. It can be easily see that WS-10 is very different to the other two.

There are reports indicating J-20 was flying with variant of AL-31FN-M2. This unknown engine is not the AL-31FN-M1 variant, which has also 11 flaming links. I can not find a picture of AL-31FN-M2. So I can not rule out the possibility that it is not the AL-31FN-M2. Below is the AL-31FN-M1.

There are some reports indicating WS-15 was based on YAK-141's Soyuz R-79V-300 engine, which China purchased it in the early 1990's.

http://baike.baidu.com/view/5056435.htm?fromtitle=WS15&fromid=2907215&type=syn

In this report, China purchased the 20 kilo newtons R79-300 design blueprints and was able to created the YWH一30—27 core, and based on this core, the CJ-2000 core was developed. WS-15 is the code name for this project.

It is well know that in the 1980's, China has developed a new Titanium alloy which could stand heat up 2000 degree celsius, good enough to develop an engine capable of 180 Kilo Newtons.

It is also known that the WS-15 core was tested on 2005, and it was able to develop 160 Kilo Newtons .

If WS-15 is based on Russian technology, it would explain the remarkable similarity that fooled many observers into thinking J-20 was flying with a variant of AL-31FN.

 

[Beast]

As I promised last night, more evidences are coming that shows WS-15 was testing on J-20 since the beginning of the testing program.

In this page, https://kknews.cc/society/oqk3zm.html, an amazing photo was shown.View attachment 356276

Some one was standing beside what looks like J-20's engine. The picture was taken on an entrance of a Highway, the article said. Very odd. Let's assume this is not some homemade full size model of J-20, on the way to a park for display.

On the lower bottom right picture, it shows the inside of the engine. It has 10 flaming links, while the AL-FN has 11. The three rinks of the AL-FN are equidistant to each other, while on this engine, the middle rink appears much closer to the inner rink than to the outer rink.

Both engines are remarkably similar.

There are reports indicate J-20 was flying with variant of AL-31FN-M2. This unknown engine is not the AL-31FN-M1 variant, which has also 11 flaming links. I can not find a picture of AL-31FN-M2. I can not rule out the possibility that it is the AL-31FN-M2.

Let's investigate other possibilities like it is WS-15 and it is based on AL-31. As far as I know, no one has suggested this possibility yet. There are some reports indicating WS-15 was based on YAK-141's Soyuz R-79V-300 engine, which China purchased it in the early 1990's. I have not seen any confirmation about it. But it is true F-35's STOVL technology was purchased from Russia. So the engine technology was for sale in those desperate times for Russia.

It is pretty certain that WS-15 was started in early 1990's. But what technology was its core engine based on?

I don't believe it is based on CFM-56II. The WS-10 may have been based on the core of the CFM-56II (itself based on the General Electric F101); China purchased two CFM-56IIs in the 1980s.

The WS-10 program was initiated in 1986. China spent two decades struggling to make it work.

China purchased the Su-27 fighters in the early1990's. It is possible that China immediately began copying its core with the thousands of experts it hired from the former Soviet Union. What is already known is that China has developed a new Titanium alloy which could stand heat up 2000 degree celsius, good enough to develop an engine capable of 180 Kilo Newtons

It is also known that the WS-15 core was tested on 2005, and it was able to develop 160 Kilo Newtons .

If WS-15 is based on the core of AL-31, it would explain the remarkable similarity that fooled many observers into thinking J-20 was flying with a variant of AL-31FN.

Lin Zuming(AVIC chairman) mention during an interview when he just takeover AVIC, Taihang has a very serious problem(not lifespan and quality), he hint more of a design problem. The team suggest to reverse engineer certain engine(possible AL-31F?) but he says China cannot keep reverse engine if China wants to keep in pace with the best. He explain very briefly how he led his team overcome the problem to keep Taihang engine alive and advance.

There must be some reason behind the scene for WS-10 fitted for Shenyang J-11 series plane while the mysterious engine keep for J-10 and J-20.

 

[Asoka]

Lin Zuming(AVIC chairman) mention during an interview when he just takeover AVIC, Taihang has a very serious problem(not lifespan and quality), he hint more of a design problem. The team suggest to reverse engineer certain engine(possible AL-31F?) but he says China cannot keep reverse engine if China wants to keep in pace with the best. He explain very briefly how he led his team overcome the problem to keep Taihang engine alive and advance.

There must be some reason behind the scene for WS-10 fitted for Shenyang J-11 series plane while the mysterious engine keep for J-10 and J-20.

Where is the report or interview, Beast?

I am leaning toward WS-15 is based on Russian technology of either AL-31F, or R79-v300.

I don't like the word copy when it comes to complex technology. It is no shame to start on some high ground and based on previous work someone has already done.

Godly, I just found an inside picture of R79-v300. It has 16 flaming links and two rinks. Not even close to AL-31 and WS-15. Not sure this is right. There is no article accompany the picture.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nozzle_of_R79V-300_engine.jpg

One possibility that seems no one has examined is that WS-15 could be based on the AL-31F of the SU-27SK fighters that China brought from Russia in the early 1990's. China could have immediately try to copy this engine and improve upon it with the help of thousands of experts it hired from the former Soviet Union.

This would have explained why WS-15 is so similar to AL-31FN, thus fooled many observers into thinking WS-15 was testing with a variant of AL-31FN until WS-15 is ready.

However, this would make the strange case that J-20 is testing with a variant of AL-31, but this variant is not developed in Russia, but developed in China and is called WS-15.

And both sides of the argument are right.

Strange isn't it?

 

[Beast]

Where is the report or interview, Beast?

I am leaning toward WS-15 is based on Russian technology of either AL-31F, or R79-v300.

I don't like the word copy when it comes to complex technology. It is no shame to start on some high ground and based on previous work someone has already done.

Godly, I just found an inside picture of R79-v300. It has 16 flaming links and two rinks. Not even close to AL-31 and WS-15. Not sure this is right. There is no article accompany the picture.
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Nozzle_of_R79V-300_engine.jpg

View attachment 356283

One possibility that seems no one has examined is that WS-15 could be based on the AL-31F of the SU-27SK fighters that China brought from Russia in the early 1990's. China could have immediately try to copy this engine and improve upon it with the help of thousands of experts it hired from the former Soviet Union.

This would have explained why WS-15 is so similar to AL-31FN, thus fooled many observers into thinking WS-15 was testing with a variant of AL-31FN until WS-15 is ready.

This would make the strange case that J-20 is testing with a variant of AL-31, but this variant is not developed in Russia, but developed in China and is called WS-15.

And both sides of the argument are right.

Strange isn't it?

30mins onward. Direct from horsemouth of AVIC chairman. I know some slayer who cant read Chinese will claim as not credible! @Deino