Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[Cookie Monster]

If we goes by your theory. SCS and diaoyutai would have long lost by now. Do you think by ignoring slander or grateful to slayer. They will be grateful to u and stop their act? It will only encourage them. Look at the smearing of China UN troops in South Sudan. If not Ministry of defence China to come out and rebuke it. More crap news will come out and sensation it.

You only be nice to people who are nice to you. Deng XP say bid your time but never say don't flex yr muscle if needed when the time is ripe.
Fortunately Xi Jiping do not think like you. It's time to exert ourselves if needed. People need to realize between defend itself and acting arrogant.

U misunderstood my point...anyways I don't wanna have lengthy off topic discussions and derail this thread. In short here is an example of what I meant.
Kim Jong Un issues threats to US on constant basis(cocky)
Xi Jinping lets China show its military muscle and economic prowess instead of issuing threatening statements to other countries(speaking softly and carrying a big stick)

Just like @Han Warrior described in the post above.

 

[WAJsal]

@Horus @WAJsal

Deino is a bully behind a keyboard, and should be banned for mis-use and abuse of Mod powers.

Also, why do all the sub-forums have a mod represented by their own nationality, but people here allow this German nut to run a Chinese sub-section? I think this is a racial discrimination against all the Chinese members here.

AT THE LEAST, MOVE THIS GERMAN TO THE EUROPEAN SECTION AND HAVE HIM MOD THERE. Mods SHOULD NOT allow racial discrimination to continue to take place on these forums.

I am acting as a occasional guest, and even I picked up on this behavior on this forum.

Don't insult mods by calling them 'nut jobs', it's a tough job. The reason why Chinese section is probably one of the best section(if not the best) is because of these guys, @Deino and company. I have deleted your posts as they are off-topic you can complain in GHQ section where your complains will be heard.
regards

@Deino

NOTE:
For some unknown reason, I can not PM you. Did you disable your PM function ?

===

With All Due Respect Mr. Deino,

Frankly, I do not intend to publicly embarrass you at all.
Please be fair and equal to both side.
Next time, before you are pulling your International Mod Trigger by banning me.
Please check all the true facts first. -- Before you do delete my posts and ban me,
just because you do not like it.

1*) You can not accuse me of trolling -- simply, because you are trying to defend F-22 and
For example:
you do not like my post on PRC * DSI Aerodynamic tech on J-20A that are potentially 3 generation ahead
when it is compared to american DSI tech on F-35.

2*) If you do not like my post, then you are free to attack my post with your basic Logic.

3*) Please be reasonable, ... ...

If any well known public personnels ( Air Force Chief or other pretentious experts ) openly and publicly and SLANDEROUSLY claimed that J-20A is a copy of F-22 or any other fighter, ... ...
when they OPENLY and PUBLICLY put out their claims, then ... ..
it becomes a fair game to attack their Basic Logic and downgrade their Intelligences of
these same public personnels ( Air Force Chief or other pretentious experts ).

For example: ( American usaf chief David Goldfein ,,
Indian Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief, Air Marshal SB Deo ,, Richard Aboulafia ,,


4*) About my location, ... ... Have you checked my Profile -- INFo Tab ?
I had repeatedly explain to so many Mod that ( I am crisscrossing and working in South East Asian nations ) -- Let's be reasonable -- Do you think it is making sense to change the nation flag, every time I change my location in SEA nation ??

===

Their public Slanders against PRC are listed below:



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Hence, please be fair and equal to both side.

These 4 persons put out their SLANDEROUSLY claimed that J-20A is a copy of F-22
on the PUBLIC domain.
It becomes a fair game for anyone to attack their Basic Logic and downgrade their Intelligences,
regardless if they are ( Air Force Chief or other pretentious experts ).

*** *** Where was my trollings on these 4 public personnels opinions ??

If you do not agree, then you are free to attack my Logic with your basic Logic.

==
Thanks for considering my opinion.
Zhu Rong Zheng Yang

@WebMaster ,, @Horus ,, @WAJsal

 

[grey boy 2]

Found a set of pictures of J-20 from the air show, don't think it has been posted before

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[Zhu Rong Zheng Yang]

J-20A -- INNER Engines Nozzles structures ??

NOTE:
As you all know, I am working outside PRC.
For some unknown reason, I can NEVER FULLY open any PRC websites.

@grey boy 2 ,, @yusheng ,, @cirr ,, @cnleio ,, @Asok ,, @Beast ,, and others please

Warmest Greeting to you All Brothers,

I am trying to sink those arguments coming from some quarters that insistently claimed that
J-20A are using modified AL-31F engines, and by extension PRC Turbofan engine tech
is still behind americese tech by 25 years.



We all can totally shut down those Nay Sayers arguments that J-20A engines are AL-31F
derivative, if we can show them that J-20A -- INNER Engines Nozzles structures are
distinctly different than AL-31F -- INNER Engines Nozzles structure.



When you have time, -- could you please find and upload those J-20A ( LRIP // s/n 2101 and beyond )
pictures that specifically show their INNER Engines Nozzles structures from
the REAR views and the CLOSE--Up views ??

Such as these old pictures belong to ( J-20 * s/n 2001 prototype ) below ... ...


Left side = REAR views and the CLOSE--Up views of J-20 s/n 2001 * prototype
INNER Engines Nozzles structures

I truly hope that with the appointment of Superstar Engineers and Scientist YANG Wei as
head of AVIC -- Central R&D department overseeing all R&D activities inside AVIC,
he will soon provide fruitful and quicker Breakthrough in term of Turbofan Engine Performances.

===
Thanks so much for your help beforehand.
ZRZY

 

[grey boy 2]

 

[AlyxMS]

J-20A -- INNER Engines Nozzles structures ??

I am trying to sink those arguments coming from some quarters that insistently claimed that
J-20A are using modified AL-31F engines, and by extension PRC Turbofan engine tech
is still behind americese tech by 25 years.

When you have time, -- could you please find and upload those J-20A ( LRIP // s/n 2101 and beyond )
pictures that specifically show their INNER Engines Nozzles structures from
the REAR views and the CLOSE--Up views ??

Left side = REAR views and the CLOSE--Up views of J-20 s/n 2001 * prototype
INNER Engines Nozzles structures
View attachment 353462
in term of Turbofan Engine Performances.

You only needed to go a few pages back.
This is from Page 444.

Now count the "links" between the inner ring and the circle that is mostly dark.
The image is blurred due to exhaust heat.
But it's either 10 or 11.

Now the image you posted shows the J-20 prototype with an image of AL-31 on the right.
You can count 11 "links" from that.

This is a WS-10.
It is clear that there are only 8 "links".

Now if you claim it is not AL-31, and clearly it isn't WS-10, what engine is it?

Also, and I quote:
J-20A are using modified AL-31F engines, and by extension PRC Turbofan engine tech
is still behind americese tech by 25 years.

Where did the "extension" part come from?
Many are here just to argue J-20 currently uses AL-31, thats it, end of the story. No one is trying to start a flame war by bringing "behind by XX years" arguement.

I don't know why you are presenting the "J-20 does not use AL-31" case as if it's a battle you have to win.
There is no battle.
No one is trying to defeat you.
It is just that all the evidences points to AL-31. Just accept it, it is as easy as that.
Using AL-31 has nothing to do with "naysaying" or China's engine technology.
It only means J-20 is currently using AL-31. That's it, full stop, no "extensions", nothing more.

 

[Zhu Rong Zheng Yang]

@AlyxMS

Thanks so much.
Your explanation on 11 Flaming links is Fantastic and very Logical.



I can see that WS-10B-2 display on ZhuHai 2016 -- only has 8 Flaming links.

*** In your opinion, the J-20 engine gearbox is at the Top or Bottom ??

 

[AlyxMS]

@AlyxMS

Thanks so much.
Your explanation on 11 Flaming links is Fantastic and very Logical.



I can see that WS-10B-2 display on ZhuHai 2016 -- only has 8 Flaming links.

*** In your opinion, the J-20 engine gearbox is at the Top or Bottom ??

I really don't know.
I have no idea about how to tell where it is from observation.
If I have to make a guess, I would say bottom since J-10 had bottom gearbox and they are both from CAC.

But I assume the engine only need a slight redesign to change the location of the gearbox?
AL-31FN was essentially a AL-31F with the gearbox at the bottom to fit on the J-10.
Also IIRC early WS-10's gearbox location was different compared to later WS-10.
I assume if an engine was required for a fighter, the location of gearbox was really an non-issue.

 

[Beast]

You only needed to go a few pages back.
This is from Page 444.

Now count the "links" between the inner ring and the circle that is mostly dark.
The image is blurred due to exhaust heat.
But it's either 10 or 11.

Now the image you posted shows the J-20 prototype with an image of AL-31 on the right.
You can count 11 "links" from that.

This is a WS-10.
It is clear that there are only 8 "links".

Now if you claim it is not AL-31, and clearly it isn't WS-10, what engine is it?

Also, and I quote:
J-20A are using modified AL-31F engines, and by extension PRC Turbofan engine tech
is still behind americese tech by 25 years.

Where did the "extension" part come from?
Many are here just to argue J-20 currently uses AL-31, thats it, end of the story. No one is trying to start a flame war by bringing "behind by XX years" arguement.

I don't know why you are presenting the "J-20 does not use AL-31" case as if it's a battle you have to win.
There is no battle.
No one is trying to defeat you.
It is just that all the evidences points to AL-31. Just accept it, it is as easy as that.
Using AL-31 has nothing to do with "naysaying" or China's engine technology.
It only means J-20 is currently using AL-31. That's it, full stop, no "extensions", nothing more.

External appearance can be deceiving. Unless you open up the whole engine to do a full inspection to verify as AL-31F or simply someone authority from PLAAF to confirm AL-31F engine is certainly use on current J-20.
I give an example of HQ-2L missile produced by China that equally looks like a 60s SA-75 missile externally but when you open up the HQ-2L missile. Inside is fully digital and no analog component. The rocket boaster is also replace with a more powerful domestic version. The missile immediately upgrade to a 2nd generation of SAM compare to SA-75.

The problem is we have seen the ability and turning of J-20 which is nothing we have seen with Su-27 or J-11b. Something more powerful is install compare AL-31F engine. As for the someone claimed of AL-31F upgrade export to China. If it is as powerful as 147kn thrust claimed, there is no reason of so much saga for Su-35 deal as China trying to get 117S.

During interview with deputy of PLAAF. He specifically claim the requirement of 5S must attain before J-20 can enter service and form capabilities. That include the crucial super cruise which can only attain by new type of engine better than just AL-31F.

 

[Deino]

You only needed to go a few pages back.
This is from Page 444.

Now count the "links" between the inner ring and the circle that is mostly dark.
The image is blurred due to exhaust heat.
But it's either 10 or 11.

Now the image you posted shows the J-20 prototype with an image of AL-31 on the right.
You can count 11 "links" from that.

This is a WS-10.
It is clear that there are only 8 "links".

Now if you claim it is not AL-31, and clearly it isn't WS-10, what engine is it?

Also, and I quote:
J-20A are using modified AL-31F engines, and by extension PRC Turbofan engine tech
is still behind americese tech by 25 years.

Where did the "extension" part come from?
Many are here just to argue J-20 currently uses AL-31, thats it, end of the story. No one is trying to start a flame war by bringing "behind by XX years" arguement.

I don't know why you are presenting the "J-20 does not use AL-31" case as if it's a battle you have to win.
There is no battle.
No one is trying to defeat you.
It is just that all the evidences points to AL-31. Just accept it, it is as easy as that.
Using AL-31 has nothing to do with "naysaying" or China's engine technology.
It only means J-20 is currently using AL-31. That's it, full stop, no "extensions", nothing more.

I can only say AMEN to this post ! I really don't understand why some here always take a simple "fact" as an insult or offence. Like I said since so many years: all evidence, all external and internal details hint an AL-31FN ... that's does not say China's engine technology is back or others in front. It's only the pointing out on a fact; a fact like water is wet, the sky is blue, I love my kids and my wife !

So nothing more, no need to get offensive ..

Thanks You so much for Your post.

Deino

By the way ... simply a beauty !

 

[Asoka]

External appearance can be deceiving. Unless you open up the whole engine to do a full inspection to verify as AL-31F or simply someone authority from PLAAF to confirm AL-31F engine is certainly use on current J-20.
I give an example of HQ-2L missile produced by China that equally looks like a 60s SA-75 missile externally but when you open up the HQ-2L missile. Inside is fully digital and no analog component. The rocket boaster is also replace with a more powerful domestic version. The missile immediately upgrade to a 2nd generation of SAM compare to SA-75.

The problem is we have seen the ability and turning of J-20 which is nothing we have seen with Su-27 or J-11b. Something more powerful is install compare AL-31F engine. As for the someone claimed of AL-31F upgrade export to China. If it is as powerful as 147kn thrust claimed, there is no reason of so much saga for Su-35 deal as China trying to get 117S.

During interview with deputy of PLAAF. He specifically claim the requirement of 5S must attain before J-20 can enter service and form capabilities. That include the crucial super cruise which can only attain by new type of engine better than just AL-31F.

The sound of J-20 is nothing like that of the Su-27, Su-30, J-11 family and J-10 which uses the AF-31 engine. That's why I am convinced J-20 is not using the AF-31. It's a very different engine. And I not sure China would use an improved version of WS-10 either on J-20. So its truly a mystery.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Consider the engine numbers. China purchased a total of 499 AL-31FN (all variants) from Russia. The final sale occurred in 2011 for the Series 3. If anyone can prove that China purchased more engines, please prove it. The notion that such a small number of engines can support 430+ J-10 and an undisclosed number of J-20 is highly improbable.

India ordered 920 AL-31FP to support 200+ Su-30MKI. The order occurred in 2012. The Su-30MKI entered service in 2002. Look at the large number of engines needed to support the fleet of Su-30MKI.

http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2013/3/15/1578/

Also note that India is still having engine problems for the AL-31FP even in 2015.

https://warisboring.com/india-s-new-russian-fighters-have-serious-engine-failures-41fd7edbe94c

Russian engines are not reliable nor do they have infinite flight hours for the life of the engine. Engine failures do happen from time to time and a reserve of spare engines are needed.

My question is, where are the Chinese AL-31FN orders? Both J-10C and J-20 production are ongoing. How can there be no engine orders?

 

[Deino]

Consider the engine numbers. China purchased a total of 499 AL-31FN (all variants) from Russia. The final sale occurred in 2011 for the Series 3. If anyone can prove that China purchased more engines, please prove it. The notion that such a small number of engines can support 430+ J-10 and an undisclosed number of J-20 is highly improbable.

India ordered 920 AL-31FP to support 200+ Su-30MKI. The order occurred in 2012. The Su-30MKI entered service in 2002. Look at the large number of engines needed to support the fleet of Su-30MKI.

http://www.ruaviation.com/news/2013/3/15/1578/

Also note that India is still having engine problems for the AL-31FP even in 2015.

https://warisboring.com/india-s-new-russian-fighters-have-serious-engine-failures-41fd7edbe94c

Russian engines are not reliable nor do they have infinite flight hours for the life of the engine. Engine failures do happen from time to time and a reserve of spare engines are needed.

My question is, where are the Chinese AL-31FN orders? Both J-10C and J-20 production are ongoing. How can there be no engine orders?

just two comments ... sorry, but my family is just waiting !

1. ignore "WarIsBoring" ...esp. in regard to Chinese stuff. By the way even if Thomas Newdick is quite a very reliable guy, his report is on the FP-version, not the standard F or FN !

2. There was just another order for additional 100 AL-31 engines. Sadly it was not mentioned what specific version it covers, but I'm sure that the J-20-related engines are all covered by a so far still secret contract similar to the original FN-contract for the J-10.

Deino

 

[grey boy 2]