grey boy 2
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Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions
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Deino
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Concerning the so often reappearing engine issue on the J-20 I found this interesting thread:
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2315042-1-1.html
It sums up quite nicely all the typical external and internal differences between an AL-31F/FN and a WS-10 like inner structure / flameholder, the number of pedals on the nozzle .... and so on.
So let's decide everyone for Your own:
So it seems as if we two are both sitting nearly half the earth away from each other and do nearly the same and in nearly the same moment !?? Simply amazing.
http://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2315042-1-1.html
It sums up quite nicely all the typical external and internal differences between an AL-31F/FN and a WS-10 like inner structure / flameholder, the number of pedals on the nozzle .... and so on.
So let's decide everyone for Your own:
So it seems as if we two are both sitting nearly half the earth away from each other and do nearly the same and in nearly the same moment !?? Simply amazing.
Last edited:
grey boy 2
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And your points is? since the link you provide was where i got the pictures from
HaHaHa, forget it lol
HaHaHa, forget it lol
Deino
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I think I made my decision on what type of engines the J-20 uses perfectly clear already since I joined this forum. I'm so much sure that it is a version of the AL-31FN that I would even bet my membership here.
For me this is clear as the earth is not the centre of our solar-system, like I am sure that I love my wife and our three kids and that an Orange is not an Apple.
Again, I can perfectly understand that desperate desire of some here to see their latest pride being powered by a WS-10 or WS-1X and I won't exclude that some day this will happen... but for the moment is simply is not so, not yet, not at Zhuhai and IMO also not in any of the birds flown and spotted so far.
Deino
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huitong's site now has AL-31F-M2 listed as J-20's engine.
He also has the thrust at 14.7t.
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/
My mind is boggled.
He also has the thrust at 14.7t.
http://chinese-military-aviation.blogspot.com/
My mind is boggled.
Last edited:
Zhu Rong Zheng Yang
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@Deino
In your opinion ... ...
#1) Have you seen any AL-31F variant engines using 18 external Flaps nozzle ?
#1.1) What are the significances of having 18 External Flaps as shown by WS-10B ?
#2) Have you seen any AL-31F variant engines using ( Bulging / Protruding Seals on
*some* external Flaps as shown by picture below ) ?
J-20 * s/n 2001 * engine in year 2011
J-20 * s/n 2001 * engine testing in year 2011
left = AL-31F
right = Unknown Engine * Flaps with Bulging Seals ??
#3) Why is the above External Flaps Seals bulging / protruding ?
#4) Do you own any J-20 engines nozzles pictures ( collection from yr 2014 --- 2016 ),
where one can easily count the number of External Flaps ??
If you do, could you please share and upload them ?
Many thanks before hand for all your detail explanation.
In your opinion ... ...
#1) Have you seen any AL-31F variant engines using 18 external Flaps nozzle ?
#1.1) What are the significances of having 18 External Flaps as shown by WS-10B ?
#2) Have you seen any AL-31F variant engines using ( Bulging / Protruding Seals on
*some* external Flaps as shown by picture below ) ?
J-20 * s/n 2001 * engine in year 2011
J-20 * s/n 2001 * engine testing in year 2011
left = AL-31F
right = Unknown Engine * Flaps with Bulging Seals ??
#3) Why is the above External Flaps Seals bulging / protruding ?
#4) Do you own any J-20 engines nozzles pictures ( collection from yr 2014 --- 2016 ),
where one can easily count the number of External Flaps ??
If you do, could you please share and upload them ?
Many thanks before hand for all your detail explanation.
Last edited:
Banglar Bir
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Indian Air Force Derides Alleged ‘Stealth’ Capabilities of China’s J-20 Jet
By Arthur Dominic Villasanta | Nov 05, 2016 10:11 AM EDT
Facebook
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
Indian Defence News Facebook
Sunday, November 06, 2016
By: China Topix
Source Link: CLICK HERE
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is unimpressed by China's Chengdu J-20 "stealth" fighter jet, echoing a growing opinion the J-20 isn't a true stealth jet in the same mold as the Northrop Grumman F-35 Lightning II.
It also points out its new Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters also have stealth capabilities that remain secret but are present in this French-made jet. India has ordered 36 Rafales from the plane's maker, Dassault Aviation.
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
By Arthur Dominic Villasanta | Nov 05, 2016 10:11 AM EDT
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
Indian Defence News Facebook
Sunday, November 06, 2016
By: China Topix
Source Link: CLICK HERE
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is unimpressed by China's Chengdu J-20 "stealth" fighter jet, echoing a growing opinion the J-20 isn't a true stealth jet in the same mold as the Northrop Grumman F-35 Lightning II.
It also points out its new Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters also have stealth capabilities that remain secret but are present in this French-made jet. India has ordered 36 Rafales from the plane's maker, Dassault Aviation.
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
Akasa
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Indian Air Force Derides Alleged ‘Stealth’ Capabilities of China’s J-20 Jet
By Arthur Dominic Villasanta | Nov 05, 2016 10:11 AM EDT
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
Indian Defence News Facebook
Sunday, November 06, 2016
By: China Topix
Source Link: CLICK HERE
The Indian Air Force (IAF) is unimpressed by China's Chengdu J-20 "stealth" fighter jet, echoing a growing opinion the J-20 isn't a true stealth jet in the same mold as the Northrop Grumman F-35 Lightning II.
It also points out its new Dassault Rafale multi-role fighters also have stealth capabilities that remain secret but are present in this French-made jet. India has ordered 36 Rafales from the plane's maker, Dassault Aviation.
IAF realizes full well the importance of acquiring a fighter aircraft with stealth features and that's why the Rafale, which has "special stealth features," was acquired from France, said Air Marshal SB Deo, Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief Western Air Command (WAC).
WAC is the largest and most important Air Command of the IAF. It consists of 16 Air Force Bases (AFBs), and is responsible for aerial defense of North India. It controls 21 squadrons, of which 13 are jet fighter squadrons.
The Air Marshal believes the J-20, which was had its first public reveal at the Zhuhai Air Show last Nov. 1, is no cause for concern since Rafael also has stealth features.
"The radial cross section of the aircraft (Rafale) is significantly smaller for an aircraft of that size," he said.
"There are many other features too which I would not like to disclose at this stage."
Air Marshal Deo pointed out the J-20 has stealth features only at the front and not in the rear. This means the J-20 is not a true stealth fighter in the same class as the F-35.
"It is important to maintain stealth while using your radar equipment, while opening your bomb bay doors to fire and ensuring how a weapon can quickly come out of the rails and go out. I do not know how far this aircraft is stealth," he said.
He also said it will be some time before the J-20 is operationally fielded but the IAF is prepared for its arrival.
By the same token, then, the J-10C could match the capabilities of the FGFA since both have reductions to their RCS. And, of course, I could eyeball the FGFA and claim that it "has no bottom- or rear-aspect stealth".
Isn't is funny, Russian 117S has problem on their PAF-KA and now they have no problem selling an up-rated version of AL-31F engines which has the same thrust as 117S to China?
I believe the engine used on J-20 is a hybrid of WS-10 core and AL-31 design.
Zhu Rong Zheng Yang
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Note:
Sorry mod, I can not hold this down any longer ... ...
This will be my last post on the other side inferiority complex issue.
Let's not talk about the producing whole complete 5th gen. Stealth fighter craft.
or 1 generation down ... ... let's not even talk about the producing whole complete
4th gen. dual engines Indian fighter craft.
It is not fair to the Indians.
I wonder how long will it take ...for the Indian fighter craft industry to master -- just this one tech ( DSI ) ?
Yes, DSI tech only.
===
Many Joe Blow people OVERLOOK the huge benefits offered by DSI tech, they are:
#1) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter craft total weight
= Longer Range + Higher Missiles Payload
#2) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter craft RCS.
#3) DSI air flow significantly boost the final fighter craft T/W ratio.
Using the Fastest Super Computer on Earth by far ( at least 5x ) and 3D printing tech with
( Huge Dimensional Build Size ) -- ChengDu is designing and producing seamless
DSI dynamical intake structure with an Ultra Complex and Ultra Precise inner surface.
For illustration only ... ... not an aircraft component
unseen Ultra Complex inner surface
===
Even Indian master, usa does not even DARE to compare their ( non existence DSI tech on f-22 )
with ( J_20A * 3rd Gen. DSI tech ). -- Fact is, usa is struggling to install DSI tech on the latest F-16 iterations.
usa must be wondering -- how does ChengDu manage to develop and install DSI tech on J-10B and J-10C ??
Quietly, usa must think -- ChengDu aerodynamics prowess must be out of this world.
Sorry, Indian new comer France Rafale is also behind. Rafale does not have DSI tech too.
Thus, the present * PAF JF-17 Block 2 and 3 * DSI tech will be way ahead compared to the
Indian new comer France Rafale obsolete air intake structure.
Just in case -- for those who are wondering.
F-35 is using usa 1st generation DSI. -- usa does not even have 2nd or 3rd gen. DSI tech.
Loosely speaking ... ...
J_10B * is using PRC * 1st generation DSI.
J_10C * is using PRC * 2nd generation DSI.
J_20A * is using PRC * 3rd generation DSI.
Let's wait for some time ... ...
5 yr ? ... ... 10 yr ? ... ... 15 yr ? ... ... 30 yr ?
I will be kind to them -- I will give Indian 10 years to produce their 1st generation DSI.
Let's see what happen.
F-22 does not have DSI and mainly uses ( Conventional Subtractive Manufacturing )
and only use very limited, obsolete, and small scale 3D printing tech.
thus, much heavier air intake structure and create inferior RCS.
1)
2)
Back to the J-20 development ... ...
Sorry mod, I can not hold this down any longer ... ...
This will be my last post on the other side inferiority complex issue.
Let's not talk about the producing whole complete 5th gen. Stealth fighter craft.
or 1 generation down ... ... let's not even talk about the producing whole complete
4th gen. dual engines Indian fighter craft.
It is not fair to the Indians.
I wonder how long will it take ...for the Indian fighter craft industry to master -- just this one tech ( DSI ) ?
Yes, DSI tech only.
===
Many Joe Blow people OVERLOOK the huge benefits offered by DSI tech, they are:
#1) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter craft total weight
= Longer Range + Higher Missiles Payload
#2) DSI structure significantly reduce fighter craft RCS.
#3) DSI air flow significantly boost the final fighter craft T/W ratio.
Using the Fastest Super Computer on Earth by far ( at least 5x ) and 3D printing tech with
( Huge Dimensional Build Size ) -- ChengDu is designing and producing seamless
DSI dynamical intake structure with an Ultra Complex and Ultra Precise inner surface.
For illustration only ... ... not an aircraft component
unseen Ultra Complex inner surface
===
Even Indian master, usa does not even DARE to compare their ( non existence DSI tech on f-22 )
with ( J_20A * 3rd Gen. DSI tech ). -- Fact is, usa is struggling to install DSI tech on the latest F-16 iterations.
usa must be wondering -- how does ChengDu manage to develop and install DSI tech on J-10B and J-10C ??
Quietly, usa must think -- ChengDu aerodynamics prowess must be out of this world.
Sorry, Indian new comer France Rafale is also behind. Rafale does not have DSI tech too.
Thus, the present * PAF JF-17 Block 2 and 3 * DSI tech will be way ahead compared to the
Indian new comer France Rafale obsolete air intake structure.
Just in case -- for those who are wondering.
F-35 is using usa 1st generation DSI. -- usa does not even have 2nd or 3rd gen. DSI tech.
Loosely speaking ... ...
J_10B * is using PRC * 1st generation DSI.
J_10C * is using PRC * 2nd generation DSI.
J_20A * is using PRC * 3rd generation DSI.
Let's wait for some time ... ...
5 yr ? ... ... 10 yr ? ... ... 15 yr ? ... ... 30 yr ?
I will be kind to them -- I will give Indian 10 years to produce their 1st generation DSI.
Let's see what happen.
F-22 does not have DSI and mainly uses ( Conventional Subtractive Manufacturing )
and only use very limited, obsolete, and small scale 3D printing tech.
thus, much heavier air intake structure and create inferior RCS.
1)
2)
Back to the J-20 development ... ...
Last edited:
Deino
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Since when do the Russians have issues with their 117S, which is in fact not the engine on the T-50 but on the Su-35?
You again mix both engines (T-50 uses 117, Su-35 uses 117S).
That simply does not make any sense. Following Your own claims China has a matured WS-10 design with all specifications reaching or even surpassing the AL-31's specifications. So if that alleged WS-10B or G as You call it so often is a design - including the nozzle - superior to the Russian engine, why should then an AL-31FN-nozzle be mated to a WS-10 core? It simply does not make sense, since an engine is always a complete and integrated system. You cannot simply take a RD-33 nozzle and put it on a F404 or vice versa, You don't mate a French M88 nozzle with an EJ-200 core. that does not work.
Only to make some fun with us, who are still discussing that matter ?
@Zhu Rong Zheng Yang
Sorry, but this post is pure nonsense --- there is no 1st, 2nd or 3rd generation Chinese DSI especially since the J-10B and C use exactly the same one and the USA does not have problems to install the DSI onto a F-16, they simply decided to use that system not operationally since the F-35 was already on the horizon !
By the way, there's NO need to bring again that topic against India on the agenda ...
Deino
Zhu Rong Zheng Yang
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@Deino
Inner not outer. Sorry, ... ...
How do you know if ChengDu DSI < inner surface structure > on J-10B and J-10C are similar ?
DSI structure is not something that one can plug in and plug out.
With all due respect, as an expert ... ...
You do realize that installing DSI structure means one has to recalculate and
redesign overall fighter craft Aerodynamic ??
Inner not outer. Sorry, ... ...
How do you know if ChengDu DSI < inner surface structure > on J-10B and J-10C are similar ?
DSI structure is not something that one can plug in and plug out.
With all due respect, as an expert ... ...
You do realize that installing DSI structure means one has to recalculate and
redesign overall fighter craft Aerodynamic ??
Last edited:
Deino
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There's no need to change an inner structure especially since both use the same engine. In return I could ask, what makes You believe they are different?
You claim its from me? Since you do not agree me, that means WS-10 is not matured and PLAAF has the incentives to make a domestic engine suits their need which works better that included modding the design of WS-10 into WS-10X with influence of AL-31F. It doesn't matter its not pure WS-10 or whatever. End of the day, its not imported Russian AL-31F engines but 100% domestic made engines.
If there is such a powerful so called AL-31 F3 series, why bother try to import 117S and by the way, there seems to be no news of 117S engine imported. And how the hell J-20 has install such powerful engine and so much effort and nonsense discuss between China and Russia trying to import 117S engine?
Deino
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Don't twist words again. I never - NEVER - said the WS-10 is not a matured design. The fact that there are more than 400 in several Flankers are operational speaks proof for that alone. Fact however is, it is not installed in the J-20 and so any of Your desperate attempts to explain why the engine of the J-20, that features exactly the same details as an AL-31 has to be a WS-10-version is nothing more than desperate wishful-thinking or ignoring the reality.
End of day - regardless what You say, whish, dare or think - its an imported Russian AL-31F engines but NOT 100% domestic made engine. Period.
[/QUOTE]If there is such a powerful so called AL-31 F3 series, why bother try to import 117S and by the way, there seems to be no news of 117S engine imported. And how the hell J-20 has install such powerful engine and so much effort and nonsense discuss between China and Russia trying to import 117S engine?[/QUOTE]
The fact is simply that the F3 does not features an operational TVC-system. Plain and simple.
You are correct however that there's no need on any new 117S-imports, since there is non. However there are reliable reports about 100 additional AL-31F or FN.
The 117S will IMO - here I'm to admit not sure - only delivered when the Su-35 will be delivered.
Last edited:
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