Chengdu J-20 5th Generation Aircraft News & Discussions

[BoQ77]

FN?

 

[j20blackdragon]

Upon closer inspection of this picture, I now believe #2101 is most likely using AL-31FN Series 3.

A high resolution shot of the J-10B nozzle confirms it. The petal arrangement matches.

Still no explanation as to why #2016 and #2017 nozzles are black, inside and out. But if they paint the #2101 nozzles black later on, we'll have our answer.

 

[Deino]

Like I explained - at least tried to or to guess ! - they were testing different coating or surface treatments for IR- or RCS-reduction ...

 

[lcloo]

I am always curious if they paint the nozzle petals. What kind of paint can withstand the extreme high heat of the jet exhaust? I tend to believe it is the natural color of the metal alloys instead of paint.

 

[Deino]

I am always curious if they paint the nozzle petals. What kind of paint can withstand the extreme high heat of the jet exhaust? I tend to believe it is the natural color of the metal alloys instead of paint.

Good argument and therefore I said "coating" and not "paint". But wasn't there a similar treatment of the surface in order to reduce the IR-signature for one of the later PW F100-versions ?

 

[Tiqiu]

 

[Deino]

Sorry, but what do You want to say ??

That TVC-engine seen in these images is clearly an AL-32FT for the Indian Su-30MKI, we already discussed that video some time ago in the Flanker tread - and these images sowing allegedly a WS-15 show whatever, but surely not an WS-15, since they came out about one week after the J-20 2001's maiden flight in Jan. 2011 ... and that engine is not ready yet - only in component testing - and was surely not in 2011.

Anyway ... it shows, the J-20's engine is indeed simply an AL-31FN or a special version.

 

[j20blackdragon]

Let's do some engine math.

123 AL-31FN Series 3 engines were purchased in 2011.
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...illion-russian-jet-engine-deal-vedomosti-says

53+ engines have been used for J-10B production.
18 engines have been used for the J-20 so far.
A couple of engines have been used for early J-10C.
All numbers above are approximate.

That means we only have enough engines left for a single squadron of production J-20.
Any further J-20 production will have to rely on WS-15.
Salut and Rosoboronexport have not announced any further engine sales to CAC since 2011.
We know the WS-10 has never been tested on the J-20.
This can only be good news for the WS-15 program.

 

[Deino]

Let's do some engine math.

123 AL-31FN Series 3 engines were purchased in 2011.
...

53+ engines have been used for J-10B production.
18 engines have been used for the J-20 so far.
A couple of engines have been used for early J-10C.
All numbers above are approximate.

.....

Small correction:

we have so far 53 J-10B + 27 (at least) J-10C using the FN = 80
we have indeed 9 J-20 = 18
-------------------------------------------
98 ... so there are indeed 24 engines left from this order.

Since the batch 02 J-10C are surely again also 55 aircraft - aka 28 aircraft still missing - remains the question if all will go to the J-10C or if they will fit them into 12 J-20 ??

The biggest question mark in this calculation however is that we calculate a 1:1 use ... IMO there are surely several as spares.

That means we only have enough engines left for a single squadron of production J-20.
Any further J-20 production will have to rely on WS-15.
Salut and Rosoboronexport have not announced any further engine sales to CAC since 2011.
We know the WS-10 has never been tested on the J-20.
This can only be good news for the WS-15 program.

I don't think the next batch of J-20 will already get the WS-15 ... it won't be ready within the next two years without any further testing. So IMO the only - and most likely answer - is a yet secret additional engine deal for the J-20.

 

[BoQ77]

I don't think the next batch of J-20 will already get the WS-15 ... it won't be ready within the next two years without any further testing. So IMO the only - and most likely answer - is a yet secret additional engine deal for the J-20.

So to you when J-20 would be commissioned as earliest at full performance ?
or J-20 would be commissioned with AL-31FN ?

 

[siegecrossbow]

So to you when J-20 would be commissioned as earliest at full performance ?
or J-20 would be commissioned with AL-31FN ?

J-20A will obviously enter service with some variant of AL-31. The question is which one.

 

[Deino]

Interesting ...

 

[lcloo]

Good argument and therefore I said "coating" and not "paint". But wasn't there a similar treatment of the surface in order to reduce the IR-signature for one of the later PW F100-versions ?

Yes coating a layer of material using some process like electroplating process (example chrome plating) instead of painted over with polymer based paint coating could be it.

 

[cirr]

A milestone achieved yesterday 28.01.2016

A burst of joys and cheers by the J-20 Team...

 

[Tiqiu]

For people like us it may never be enough evidence to claim 2011 engine is ws15, but I strongly believe it is not any of the 31F series because it simply doesn't make sense. It is more likely an early vision of the Chinese AVEN (Axisymmetric Vectoring Exhaust Nozzle) engine which is under development for decade with an unique Chinese design different to 117s.

Based on the following news reports in the past, ws15 or Chinese AVEN is, if not already ready, not far away from being commissioned.

中国研成世界第一款隐身轴对称矢量喷管
军事要闻中国航空报2014-09-27 09:35

赵春生，男，32岁，中共党员，现为中航工业动力所燃烧设计研究室设计员，主要从事航空发动机喷管及排气装置设计，自参加工作至今的6年时间里，共申请专利65项，其中发明专利33项、国防专利26项、实用新型6项。

推力矢量和隐身能力已经成为未来先进战斗机必备的关键技术。轴对称矢量喷管作为一种具有良好推力矢量功能的先进喷管，其实现隐身修型设计却异常困难，国内外还没有一种轴对称矢量喷管应用隐身修型设计。为 了解决轴对称矢量喷管隐身修型的设计问题，赵春生通过对现有轴对称矢量喷管的结构特点和运动特性进行深入分析和研究，发明了一种新型锯齿形裙边修型结构， 此种结构解决了各状态下对内部构件的有效遮挡与运动干涉相矛盾的问题。目前，此种锯齿形裙边修型结构经过了计算机仿真验证和技术验证，充分验证了其结构可 行性，在很大程度上提高了轴对称矢量喷管的隐身能力，填补了类似轴对称矢量喷管进行锯齿修型的技术空白，此种结构已申请国防专利。