Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[sancho]

sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b

Many wrong points!

They are testing Chinese engine with J10.
Russia will have no issue with selling AL 31 for J10B and India will not be able to do anything against it, because Russia will argue again that we get even more advanced engines from them.
And who told you that JF 17 and J10 are underpowered?

 

[Peaceful Civilian]

Orangzaib,

In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.

That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.

Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.

Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----.

About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.

If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.

When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.
.

You are taking only One angle of view and ignoring other aspects.
R&development & JV cost never waste which happened around 500 Million dollar and experience which our engineers gained from this project is unique and not-ignorable which will help further in future...
Opponent have to keep their fleet twice from us as they have other enemy and Even in war scenario, they have to keep some fleet on the other border as well.

Need J10b because it has good load capacity and it will work as air superiority. According to Chinese, till now, j10b is their best fighter.
F16 is no doubt good and capable fighter but it comes with some limitations and i don't know even we are getting Jamming technology in F16s or not.
Now think Jf17 was right choice or some more F16s ...
If we bought F16s, we never had experience from a R&development& JV project, even in many aspect Jf17 is par with f16 A//B from Block 1 and Block Ii is expected around mid of this year which will be less or par with Block52+ in many aspect

 

[Viper0011.]

Orangzaib,

In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.

That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.

Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.

Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----.

About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.

Bottomline---if pak civilians had allowed their govt the executions of the foreigners / al qadea operatives / tajiks / chechen fighters / yemeni / somali / french / american / british / etc fighters in pakistan---why would you have any problem with what you needed.

If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.

This time around the writ of the state was challenged and the integrity of the state was threatened because some pakistanis decided to give sanctuary to the al qaeda---.

Has the army major and his family who were hiding Khalid Sheikh Mohammad executed by the pak govt yet.


As Luftwaffe pointed out---if the JF 17's second and third batch are so good---then why the J10B. What it boils down to is what is your heavy air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---then what is your heavy ground strike aircraft----in relation to the enemy's.

When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.

As for the sanctions---if the paks had chosen to be pakistani lover first and no some arab ar-se kissers of Osama Bin Laden---this word 'sanctions' would have disappeared from the pakistani dictionary.

Mastan bhai - I entirely agree with you on about 80% of the post. My take on JFT related situation is however different than yours.

You are right. There needed to be a list in advance after an assessment was made. This is where democracy is different than dictatorship. Generals are not taught to negotiate. There job is to execute the orders and fight, not play politics or negotiate. Here you had a guy who gave up on ONE call and didn't know how to approach Sh$t. So that was your major issue. Secondly, Pakistani leadership is all corrupt. They don't want to represent the country fairly in front of others. It's like a security cushion, more messed up the country looks, more chances of confused foreign powers to keep the people as is since they'd be scared of a change in leadership. From Zia to Zardari....everyone played that card well in front of the Americans. You never had real leaders come up front unfortunately.
Lastly and truthfully, with Indian lobby becoming very strong and active, you STILL wouldn't have gotten away with offensive weapons. That just wouldn't happen until Pakistani economy grows and you talk CASH with others. India had over 255 Billion $ last year in their reserves...Pakistan lives off loans. So you have to take that into account. Irrespective of what we had asked, the Americans did and still consider Pakistan as the root cause of the 911 due to training etc. So, even people came from other places..the environment existed for them (that's why Obama referred to Pakistan as the cancer and India's makes silly statements like this all the time). So, I don't know why Pakistani's don't wake up and pick the right people and build tolerance in the society as that's the only way to get Pakistan better and grow and increase common people's spending capacity, provide better environment to live and to prosper.
JFT seemed like the only option at that time. But now, it is the best option as you've got a lot of capability in it. You are mistaken here when you look at it from a low tech fighter. It's got everything decent in it. The West admits it. Mig had been crying for the Russian gov't to stop the engines as this to them is a direct competition to their jets. So it's not bad.
I'd see this grow larger and better from a load, engine and avionics perspective. Then get J 11's and jump straight to 5th gen stealth jets. I don't think Pakistan will really need J10B. This is my opinion.

 

[IPL5]

Many wrong points!

They are testing Chinese engine with J10.
Russia will have no issue with selling AL 31 for J10B and India will not be able to do anything against it, because Russia will argue again that we get even more advanced engines from them.
And who told you that JF 17 and J10 are underpowered?

sirjee, testing and being operational is two different thing...
don't forget when US sold f-16 blk 52 india made a lot of hue and cry...
russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india.
and I never said that jf17 is under-powered I said that in comparison with j10 b....when chinese do not have engine to power jf17 we can very much understand the reality...
Much of the so sha here on PDF is based on speculations...nothing concrete.

 

[Farooqi1]

Will you pay for it?


Never mind.
Let's keep this thread ON-topic and you better come back to Chinese-copy-flanker-make-new-jet-Carlo-knop thread.

Yeah we can cahrge it on my AX

 

[Viper0011.]

russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india.

Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!

 

[IPL5]

Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!

bullcrap !!! India is going to spend significantly in the upcoming year. pakfa project alone is of 35bn dollar and I'm not even mentioning the 150 bn usd nuclear market and strategic relationship that we have with russian.

and please do read your post before talking about realism ... a fragile economy on the verge of collapse should not talk about 100bn in reserves. I don't want to be rude that is why i'm not comment on the rest of gibberish.

 

[Storm Force]

Orangzaib.

Your comment

but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off

You have suggested this in many of your posts. You seem to imply that this is a GIVEN but you have never explained how & why this HUGE turn of events will occur.

I dont see

Any billonaire industrialists in Pakistan like your immediate neighbours
I see a huge reluctance for BIG weestern corporations to invest in Pakistan when they can invest in CHINA & INDIA next door
I cant see a MAJOR trust being built in the euro markets evebn SOUTH EAST ASIA by Pakistan for trade either.

Where is this growth coming from.

PS when any nation is about to explode on the scene the investment banks star telling us and the WESTERN leaders start flocking to the country in question.

IE next BIG rise will be indoneasia in OUR neighbourhood and guess what DAVID CAMERON of the UK is already there.

I dont see this in pakistan. AS YET

 

[sancho]

sirjee, testing and being operational is two different thing...
don't forget when US sold f-16 blk 52 india made a lot of hue and cry...
russian are loosing market to india, won't do anything to angry india.
and I never said that jf17 is under-powered I said that in comparison with j10 b....when chinese do not have engine to power jf17 we can very much understand the reality...
Much of the so sha here on PDF is based on speculations...nothing concrete.

Who said it's operational, that's why PAF is waiting for J10B to be fully developed, mature and if possible with a Chinese engine. Russia is not loosing market in India at all, please check in the Indian section, I listed up the new procurements several times. All big and important procurements are either from Russia or co-developed with Russia.

You said this:

for under-powered jet like jf-17

So it's quiet clear right and this is a forum like any other too, many people speculate, or share there ideas and it's up to you to figure out what is true and what not. The point is, Russia is not selling fighters or weapons to PAF because of our relationship, but selling engines for Chinese fighters is not an issue for the, neither for JF 17 nor for J10.

 

[IPL5]

Who said it's operational, that's why PAF is waiting for J10B to be fully developed, mature and if possible with a Chinese engine. Russia is not loosing market in India at all, please check in the Indian section, I listed up the new procurements several times. All big and important procurements are either from Russia or co-developed with Russia.

You said this:



So it's quiet clear right and this is a forum like any other too, many people speculate, or share there ideas and it's up to you to figure out what is true and what not. The point is, Russia is not selling fighters or weapons to PAF because of our relationship, but selling engines for Chinese fighters is not an issue for the, neither for JF 17 nor for J10.

sirjee, you are talking out of context here....

I said that because as per Oscar they are ready to get deliver as currently chinese engine is not operational it may be one of the reason... which is very much possible

Today they are not loosing maybe tomorrow they may loose ... isn't that allow india to has huge leverage over russia not to sell equipment to Pakistan?

don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b

I said this in comparison with j10 b

More to suffice

Will support India against friendly neighbour: Medvedev - Hindustan Times

 

[SQ8]

sirjee, we don't thrive on speculations unlike some, still there is no confirmation of f10b is using chinese made engine, recent purchase of russian engine divulge the reality... don't forget you still using russian engine for under-powered jet like jf-17 as compared to j10 b

How do you know its under powered.. by what speculation did you come up with that?

 

[Pfpilot]

If this debate is factoring in economic considerations than there is no debate at all. Pakistan, in its current situation, cannot afford the su-35 or the eurofighter or the j-10 or even the jf-17. People greatly underestimate the gravity of our economic decay. Pakistan, today, is in no position to make billion dollar expenditures on the needs of the military.

If the debate is from a purely academic or historical (when the funds and political climate was preferable) point of view, then one can easily argue Pakistan should have invested in an air superiority fighter of some kind or gone all in for the j-10. The jf-17 should have been shelved in favor of the j-10, if the goal was to remain the pursuit of self-sufficiency over present day performance. A foreign aircraft would have been preferable, because I still do not believe the domestic need of Pakistan is ever going to be large enough to allow for a local aviation industry to flourish. The Israelis did it with the Lavi, the Canadians with the Avro Arrow, and the French did so with the Mirage-4000. They shelved national pride in favor of tangibly superior capability.

What many Pakistanis have failed to acknowledge is the changing environment around us. The Indian military machine is reaching heights that will allow it to wage war against far superior nations than us, from a position of strength. In answer to this growing threat, we come across as decidedly toothless. The j-10 hasn't arrive, the f-16 will be the first casualty of wartime attrition (either through being shot down or in a deliberate attempt of self preservation by the PAF).

J-10s, were they serving in the PAF at this point, would have provided a far greater capability than jf-17s. The greater payload and range would have had an exponential impact in capability, when dealing with the strategic depth mother nature provides India and its far off airfields. The jf-17, with its limited radius was always destined to be a fighter catering to localized needs.

Once again, in the realm of reality, there is nothing we can do at this point except rue the complete lack of foresight on the part of the PAF a decade ago. At this point, we don't have the funds to sway any aviation power to offer us aircraft. We are stuck with a short legged fighter incapable of gaining an upper hand over the adversary, another aircraft with limited numbers, and a third that exists only in the fantasies of all those who see a triumphant Pakistan in any future conflict. I have said it many times before, we cannot control against whom we will deploy the jf-17. One of the disadvantages of a defensive war is that the adversary decides when and where to fight. We will be left with no choice but to have the jf-17 flying against the Rafale and mki. Anyone who believes that is a favorable situation, or even one that can be salvageable over a medium term is lying to himself.

 

[Farooqi1]

Absolutely incorrect. They are loosing market to India but gained strength with the Chinese and in a few years, will be selling to countries that India once could restrict them to. Not sure why India-mania is so big in the minds of Indian people but it's just a matter of time. Pakistan's economy will take off and EVERYBODY and their uncle would love ca$$$h. That's the reality. Pakistan is the SIXTH largest population in the world. Population caused growth in India due to market size. What makes you think it won't happen in Pakistan???
When Pakistan has $ 100 billion sitting in reserves, trust me, even you'll be starting 'neighborhood joint technological projects' with them . Money talks and sh$t stops!! Oh and btw, $ 100 Billion reserves is not that much if the security situation gets better and market's opened to be utilized. Unlike India, Pakistan's market is immature so a LOT of chances of making money for any foreign investing company. People are just as smart as they are in India & China. Hope this bridges the gap between India-ism and Reality-ism!

Orangzaib:

Don't listen to these India Mafia people. As soon as political situation takes a corrective path in Pakistan we will shine again I A. Not too long ago these people used to be way behind us. Afghan war took its toll on us. Progress is no ones monpoly. Our time is around the cornor.

 

[IPL5]

How do you know its under powered.. by what speculation did you come up with that?

isn't that obvious jf17 engine is under powered as comparison with the engine of j10 b ? look I was comparing the engines not the jets.

 

[Edevelop]

bullcrap !!! India is going to spend significantly in the upcoming year. pakfa project alone is of 35bn dollar and I'm not even mentioning the 150 bn usd nuclear market and strategic relationship that we have with russian.

and please do read your post before talking about realism ... a fragile economy on the verge of collapse should not talk about 100bn in reserves. I don't want to be rude that is why i'm not comment on the rest of gibberish.

We have been listening to Pakistan's economic collapse since 1947.... be honest with your comments, nothing has happened as of yet and this is 'reality'