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Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

Hi,

Oh my children---you are so innocent and ill informed---your lack of knowledge and understanding---it is a tragedy---no world class libraries no foeriegn material to read----.

When the F16 was manufactured in the 70---the basic technology that was implemented in it was of the late 60's----.

The electrnoics technology in these aircraft or current day aircraft is 3 to 5 years behind what is available in the market---any clue why---it is because the aparatus has to be millitary grade----navigation system has to be millitary grade---electronic sensors have to be millitary grade----. It takes time and years to develop millitary grade items.

So---you don't know about pakistan deceiving france---what an I say---I am just tired of repeating it to every new comer.

-By that standard Sir the technology implemented in the F-22 Raptor/EF-2000 is of the late 80's then??
Even more shocking the rafale by the same standards would have the technology level of late 70's and early 80's as for gripen its the early 80's as well...

- Now I know your next response would be that "they were modified for present needs" which is the same thing that happened to the falcon (Block 50/52/60 and then F-16V)

-Now as we are discussing JF-17 in all this mess it will come up gradually, the block I is indeed a good foundation to build on and the question for the fact that a potential aggressor has higher end fighters..yes they do..but the fact is we not only have to deal with their higher end fighters but also other fighters like (mig-21,Mirage 2k,mig-29 and in huge numbers) so we need to have fighters that can launch high sortie rates to minimize to an extent their numerical advantage...

-Yes sir I see, all I know was our decision of going for F-16's while we were in line for M2K's if that is what you consider backstabbing then we did.But still went for the rose upgrades didn't we??still they screwed us over JFT upgrades..why??
cuz of the ability of India to pay more cash "paisa bolta hai" (126 MMRCA deal + M2K upgrades deal)
 
This statement

they screwed us over JFT upgrades..why??
cuz of the ability of India to pay more cash "paisa bolta hai" (126 MMRCA deal + M2K upgrades deal)
I doubt India HAS that much influence over the french.

THE REAL REASON was PAF unwillingness to pay THE massive over priced FRENCH weapons COST.. its widely accepted that FRENCH equipment although very advanced and very reliable costs twice that of USA and others.

French have literally raped IAF for $2.2 billion for upgrading and arming 51 mirage2000 to dash 5 standard. ie $40 million each.

PAF wanted the same radar RC400 and same mica BVR system in block 2 thunders SO you can imagine the COST that france will have quoted...
 
actually india did stopped the french simply by paying way too high for the mirage updates..dont believe me, its common sense they tried their best first to stop the Russians for supplying engines when that didnt worked they stopped the french. Pakistan were to pay 1.1 billion dollars for 50 aircrfts , the norm price but india paid twice with the mirge deal

but by now thunder may have gotten close to the avionics which we would had got anyway due to delays in its induction and speed of Chinese avionics maturation. j-10b will be a very good addition but how many will be inducted will be the real question.

the point being military equipment is 4-5 years behind is true but this is true for all military equipment, meaning that comparing two countries will simply cancel out the effect e.g if french were providing us militery equipment in 2005 that was say the 2000 technology, in 2008 chines were providing us say 2005 technology now even though its 5 years ahead by Chinese norm but may still be slightly inferior to french. what i mean that the effect is canceled out when comparing different countries so mentioning it is of no significance.
 
actually india did stopped the french simply by paying way too high for the mirage updates..

The best logical way to understand that it has nothing to do with India, but with Pakistans financial situation is the fact, that PAF didn't procured any other western avionics or weapons instead of the French. There are German, British or Italian counterparts as well, but PAF went with Chinese, because they are cheaper and Pakistan gets more favourable loans from China than from Europe.
Also look at the other deals like U214 sub, that was even approved by German security council and still didn't happen. If India had anything to do, they would have rejected the sale in the council and based on politics only, but that wasn't the case. Again, the cheaper Chinese subs and better loan conditions were the better choice for PN.
India has way less influence in such sales wrt Pakistan, but it's an easy way to deny the reality and blame others.

Wrt Mirage upgrade price, similar costs were quoted for Greek Mirage upgrades as well, so it wasn't much higher especially if you keep in mind that our deal included ToT to do in India. Indian media also made it more sensational than it really was.
 
Sir,


Your first para----a shocking statement by the original writer and then on your part as well----your enemy has high end aircraft----you have no high end aircraft----do you believe that you have a choice----.

Did you ever think that just because pakistan team was not ready to take it---they would refuse to face Dennis Lillee---Michael Holding---Jeff Thompson---Courtney Walsh or others with a thunder bolt----.

These are war birds----it is an inherent part of their design to take on the best what the enemy has to put forward---. Now if they cannot take the best of the enemy---because it was not a part of their design---they should not be there in the first place----.

If this is the mindset of the PAF---then they need to be lined up and hanged---. And if this is the mindset of the young pakistani brains---then you know very well why this country has become the proverbial arm-pit of the world.

So Mr. Khan What you are suggesting is JFT should be able take on the high end fighters then indeed it is a good news as far as your analysis goes. It means 250+ JFT would be sufficient for our defense and we may not need J10B or other high end fighters. At least this is what mine little brains is thinking right now.

Or you are suggesting we made a mistake by not designing JFT to take on high end fighters then we have a serious problem. What is your take on J10B? Would that solve our problem? I am really asking for your opinion.
 
So Mr. Khan What you are suggesting is JFT should be able take on the high end fighters then indeed it is a good news as far as your analysis goes. It means 250+ JFT would be sufficient for our defense and we may not need J10B or other high end fighters. At least this is what mine little brains is thinking right now.

Or you are suggesting we made a mistake by not designing JFT to take on high end fighters then we have a serious problem. What is your take on J10B? Would that solve our problem? I am really asking for your opinion.

Hi,

What I am saying is that pakistan should have killed all the la qaeda escaping from afg----. Pakistanis should have thought about pakistan first after 9/11---none of the high jackers were oakistanis---so where is the bone of contention for pakistan---nobody bashed pakistan in the early stages---as a matter of fact pakistan was a hero---.

So, how did a hero turn into a zero----when you started kissing the ar-se of the friggin yemeni murderer OBL and the egyptian doctor and letting chechen and tajik and fundamentalist fighters start making strikes within pakistan and you did not condemn them and force your govt to kill them---execute them---but you sold your nation and nationalsim for those foreigners---.

Pakistan is full of traitors---ghaddars as they say---and who are the ghaddars---those who raised the solgan of al qaeda and OBL in pakistan---those are the ghaddars who supported the arabs and tajiks---those who named their children after Osama---they are the biggest ghaddars of the country naming them after someone who brought death into afg---who brought death and destruction into pakistan---those are the ghaddars supporting teh agenda of the murderers.

The only intelligent country in this whole episode was---surprisingly----SUDAN----on the first hint of trouble---they kicked the murderer and harbinger of death and destruction Osama, out of their country----and the fools----the pathtic miserable souls---identitiless men of pakistan---they welcome the fourth hroseman with open arms----.

Collin Powell stated in one of his recent addresses that he was surprised that pakistan did not ask for more---which meant that the u s was already in a position to give more----. Instead of acting as a force of one---these fools started running in every whichway direction that they could----.

This paf---it should have had ordered a platform with the first years after 9/11. It should have forced the u s for 2 to 3 sqdrns of the latest blk of F16's in 2002 in lieu of the bases given to the u s---. The u s was ready for it----only the fools in pakistan didnot know how to manipulate the situation to its advantage---.

What pakistan and what the pakistanis have done after 2001---would go down in the anals of history----as the worst strategic blunders in the history of mankind----FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY INTO THE HELL HOLE OF DEFEAT will have the picture of post 9/11 pakistan----actually post 2007 pakistan----.

Why did the pakistanis make OBL a hero---he had nothing to do with pakistan---he is the reason a million afghans are dead in afg----he is the reason aroubnd 40 thousand pakistanis are dead in pakistan---he is the reason pakistani economy is destroyed---and my ignorant and stu-pid brethren are praises for that lunatic-----. How sick does an nation have to be---how mentally sick the men and young boys of the nation have to be to follow this man who brought death and destruction to a tragic place like afg.

I have stated it many a times over here---I don't know if you know it---the reason PAF did not go on a fast track in the purchase of a european or a u s fighter is that paf assessed that the peace deal with india was imminent and it would be a waste of 5 billon dollars to buy appropriate aircraft by 2004-----.

And the reason india was pushing for peace was that it knew that pakistan was ready to buy a large number of frontline aircraft---that would change the poles in south asia---it was again becoming the darling of the u s---. India was scared sh-itless when the u s rejected the indian offer of bases---. The biggest fear india had was what if pakistan learnt from its past mistakes and made amends in its dealing with the united states and played the role of knocking out al qaeda right at the base----.

India had years of sleepless nights over this issue----but in the end they did not have to worry---because as usual there were many a ziaulislams and abdulbarijans and the likes---so many of the pakistanis---who were busy digging the grave their motherland with a newfound zeal----.

In the end---who gives a fcuk who bombed the twin towers---I didn't do it---my countrymen didn't do it---we don't have the blame---nobody is saying that we did it----the countries who's nationals participated in it---those countries are okay with the u s---and the country pakistan who had no involvement in it----it has become a pariah nation----how could that be possible----.

How stupid a nation and its population has to be---how dumb the civil society of that nation has to be---how grossly out of sync the men of the nation are from reality---the books of history will condemn the pakistans in the same manner as the current day pakistanis condemn the traitors of muslim history----.

So---coming back to the topic----india started playing the kind, friendly and brotherly game---and these goofballz fell into the trap once again---. They stopped the procurement of he most important item to solidify peace---they stopped the purchase of what was the very reason of bringing peace to the sub-continent---a frontline fighter aircraft.

PAf's coffers were full---they had been given the money---till 2005 before the earthquake they did not have the problem paying for the aircraft---. Who would have let the test the grippen for so long---or the rafale---you have to have money and you have to show your funds and ability to pay when you go out testing aircraft.
 
Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.

However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!
 
Hi,

What I am saying is that pakistan should have killed all the la qaeda escaping from afg----. Pakistanis should have thought about pakistan first after 9/11---none of the high jackers were oakistanis---so where is the bone of contention for pakistan---nobody bashed pakistan in the early stages---as a matter of fact pakistan was a hero---.

Collin Powell stated in one of his recent addresses that he was surprised that pakistan did not ask for more---which meant that the u s was already in a position to give more----. Instead of acting as a force of one---these fools started running in every whichway direction that they could----.

This paf---it should have had ordered a platform with the first years after 9/11. It should have forced the u s for 2 to 3 sqdrns of the latest blk of F16's in 2002 in lieu of the bases given to the u s---. The u s was ready for it----only the fools in pakistan didnot know how to manipulate the situation to its advantage---.

What pakistan and what the pakistanis have done after 2001---would go down in the anals of history----as the worst strategic blunders in the history of mankind----FROM THE JAWS OF VICTORY INTO THE HELL HOLE OF DEFEAT will have the picture of post 9/11 pakistan----actually post 2007 pakistan----.

Why did the pakistanis make OBL a hero---he had nothing to do with pakistan---he is the reason a million afghans are dead in afg----he is the reason aroubnd 40 thousand pakistanis are dead in pakistan---he is the reason pakistani economy is destroyed---and my ignorant and stu-pid brethren are praises for that lunatic-----. How sick does an nation have to be---how mentally sick the men and young boys of the nation have to be to follow this man who brought death and destruction to a tragic place like afg.

In the end---who gives a fcuk who bombed the twin towers---I didn't do it---my countrymen didn't do it---we don't have the blame---nobody is saying that we did it----the countries who's nationals participated in it---those countries are okay with the u s---and the country pakistan who had no involvement in it----it has become a pariah nation----how could that be possible----.

How stupid a nation and its population has to be---how dumb the civil society of that nation has to be---how grossly out of sync the men of the nation are from reality---the books of history will condemn the pakistans in the same manner as the current day pakistanis condemn the traitors of muslim history----.

Mastan bhai - I agree with you 200% on the topic of OBL & AlQaeda. That's a cancer and it needed to be surgically removed ASAP. The WOT damaged Pakistan along with Alqaeda and even with all the cooperation, the US can't trust Pakistan. You are also right about the society as to how stupid a society can be to regard a murderer who got hundreds of thousands of people killed for an event that's PROHIBITED by Islam, i.e. killing of men & women who had nothing to do with anything in NYC. Similarly resulting in men & women who got killed in Afg & Pak. This is the ultimate stupidity ever. Sad part is, some idiots support it even when its entirely unIslamic!

Now back to JFT & PAF. I think you are mistaken there a bit. "Asking" and "Receiving" are two different things. Pak asked for a lot of stuff. An example is a defensive tech like night vision goggles, rifles and airlift choppers. What and when they got it? A YEAR ago and even the night vision goggles have to be accounted for every 24 hours!!! This is the reality.
PAF also pushed & pushed hard for Hawkeye systems. On paper, a request was sent to congress.....it was and will never materialize on P3C planes. At least not the updated ones.
After reversing sanctions, US had made an internal strategy (which was further enhanced after Pakistani test to Tomahawk like cruise missile) that NOT to give any latest tech to Pak. F 16 was almost a painful favor due to the history of the issue and they wanted to shut people up and show that they were building a relationship with Pakistan. If the US was that giving, they would've offered F 18 and so as they did to India. When you are buying stuff from a country through their own financing, you become a beggar (almost) and it's up to them as to what they'll allow you to have......so please realize that irrespective of what was asked or not asked, the options have ALWAYS been very difficult post Soviet war. Plus, after 911 the "we'll bomb you to stone age" deal....they were too busy in focusing on how to build a jet that's sanction proof and can replace F 7, Mirages and have some BVR tech. Over the decade, the low tech JFT has evolved into a very potent and much better electronics. The West calls it a "poor nation's F 16". This is not a slogan but there are a TON of capability analysis that go into calling something like an F 16. They could've just as easily dubbed it a "poor man's modern F 7" too...something the West loves to do to show how inferior the Chinese tech is. But that's not the case anymore as it is Israeli & Russian tech that China's setting as its baseline and then building on top of it.

I highly recommend that you wait and see....BII specs will be out and BIII as well. PAF WILL surprise you soon. Those folks are not sitting idle and acting stupid. They know when MRCA will be inducted and when PakFa will be coming in.....just like Falcon AWACS. By the time Falcon was inducted, PAF had the Eireye soon after that and it was working on Chinese / Pakistani ZDK 03 (which will also be produced in Pakistan going forward). So there are some great decisions made and some great progress towards self reliance.
The Chinese drove bicycles for three plus decades before they got to where they are now from a economic and military standpoint. Similarly, the Indians didn't allow imported products like cars, etc until a few years ago as they wanted to drive their own. Look at where they are at now.
Now take JFT....the FIRST block is comparable to Gripen, Mirage 2000-5 and F 16 (up to B-40) in many ways. JFT BII (more likely BIII) may put it at direct capability comparison against F 16 B52 or the Rafale... or a little inferior. NOT BAD.
I also think Pakistan should skip J 10B and move to a combo of Stealth single engine design of a 5th gen and add J 11's (both for Navy & PAF, around 2-4 squadrons at least). Introduce hi altitude SAMS / ABM's in numbers by modifying Shaheen 1 for intercept roles. This will prove out to be a great counter in my opinion.
 
Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.

However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!


100% Rite!
 
Hi, I will have to definitely agree with Mr. MK that Pakistan should have asked for more. They blew it! Pakistan did not even ask for debt write-off, simply deferring the paying of loans. How stupid was the government? Even getting debt write-off would have given them more disposable funds. But then again, more loans means more embezzeling opportunities for the politicians, and what do they care if the country will become bankrupt.

However, that is the past. Other than the J-10B, if the PAF has the money, and the J-17, I do not see any choice for the PAF right now. Mr. MK is right, if you go flash 15+B dollars to a western country they will sell you stuff. Money talks!

See more people agreeing, 77 F-16s were our last and the only chance IF no there western fighter were on the procurement list.
 
orangzaib;

You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become F-16C Class Fighter than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15 and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV.
 
orangzaib;

You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become F-16C Class Fighter than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15 and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV.


In avionics perhaps.. but never in payload capacity.
The Jf-17 cannot carry a heavy payload and strike deep at the same time. the J-10B offers an improvement over that ability.. apart from a big nose for even better avionics. However, both funds and priorities do not permit the Fc-20 for the PAF till after 2016.

The F-16 is not going anywhere from the PAF's plans till 2025..
If anybody wants to gauge the love for the F-16 in the PAF.. give them tons of money and allow them to buy F-16's..
they'll buy them all..
 
orangzaib;

You seem sensible person, I asked it and I am asking everyone again. IF BLKIII JFT is going to be so superior and a some even say it would become F-16C Class Fighter than what is the purpose of J-10B why do we have to invest in J-10B and Why 150 J-10B if JFT BLOCK III finally would give us the punch we need. By the time of BLOCK III JFT you would have 3 Types of roughly similar capabilities, I don't see the point lets take out F-16 it stands and will stand tall always, where PAF always waits and wait then Lets wait till 2016-17, there is no hurry to procure J-10B infact there is no need... CFTs and IFR solves the problem of range, by now PAF should learn from LM F-16/SUFA Project, what is the reason Israelis did not go for more F-15 and picked SUFAs configuration, you want to stay in business make something out if this JFT IF BLOCK III is considered ultimate, PAF needs to work hard on it, not another promise that might not be delivered and the next story comes BLOCK IV.


Re-read my post again. I'd like to by pass J10B all together and introduce heavier platform J11's and go straight to 5th Gen stealth. When we get J10B, then test it, update it and turn it into a platform, it'll pretty much be older generation as AF's around the world would be using more stealth jets and UCAV's. So, I think PAF should skip J10B all together. Get some J11's with TOT or license production and invest into a 5th gen stealth program. IF JFT BIII IS that single engine Shenyang / CAC's stealth project with heavier payloads, etc. Then J10B makes sense. Otherwise, it should be skipped! Hope this helps
 
Orangzaib,

In any event---when oppurtunity knocks at your door and comes abegging----timing is everything----. You have to have everything that you want written agreed and in delievery mode up front---not five or seven years later or say---they know what we want---so they should automatically give it to us.

That is why the pre-nuptual agreement has gained importance----that is what the paks did not know about----. My country men were so foolish that they agreed on providing service to the u s and then billing them a year later and waiting two years to get paid----and in the end the american used this term as AID and not payment for services provided---remember rent is due in the begining of every month----pakistanis decided to receive it at the end of the month including delays---wow.

Any management with any kind of common sense would have used the goodwill 'PAGRI' system---pay me approximate one years expenses up front---pay me a security kind of deposit of one to two year equivalent up front---and afterwards---every years payment must arrive one month in advance----or face a massive penalty---because we are a poor country and cannot absorb this massive transition withoput damaging our infra structure.

Now as for as what the PAF is saying about the JF17---they know that they have scr-ewed up for not getting something by 2003----as the peace deal failed and the earthquake happened----now they have cover ups and stories that the jf17 is what they wanted --- it is sanction proof ( RD93 ) (martin baker ejection seats) if that is what they have----.

About the night vision goggles---well don't start donating it to the enemy---but first of all---they should have been on the supply list right upfront in the first 60 days-----and not after 6 years of war.

Bottomline---if pak civilians had allowed their govt the executions of the foreigners / al qadea operatives / tajiks / chechen fighters / yemeni / somali / french / american / british / etc fighters in pakistan---why would you have any problem with what you needed.

If you happen to read the millitary manual of ' How to overcome an insurgency '---you can first follow the examples of successful muslim emperors and caliphs----just read your history books or---it would be on the very first page of the manual-------timing timing and timing----. Once you start---strike hard---strike deep---keep on striking rlentlessly---annihilate them from top to bottom at a lightening speed---take out their leaders and their chain in command---. Do what the muslims Caliph have done---execute them all--total destruction---. The writ of the state must never be challenged----pakisatn comes first---pakistanis come first----.

This time around the writ of the state was challenged and the integrity of the state was threatened because some pakistanis decided to give sanctuary to the al qaeda---.

Has the army major and his family who were hiding Khalid Sheikh Mohammad executed by the pak govt yet.


As Luftwaffe pointed out---if the JF 17's second and third batch are so good---then why the J10B. What it boils down to is what is your heavy air superiority air dominance fighter aircraft---then what is your heavy ground strike aircraft----in relation to the enemy's.

When you are fighting and enemy---twice as large as you----you have to have weapons systems that put thru a massive visible punch when they strike----not in large numbers but in sufficient visible numbers.

As for the sanctions---if the paks had chosen to be pakistani lover first and no some arab ar-se kissers of Osama Bin Laden---this word 'sanctions' would have disappeared from the pakistani dictionary.
 
DID OSCAR JUST SAY NO FC20 until year 2016 IE 4 YEARS AWAY

However, both funds and priorities do not permit the Fc-20 for the PAF till after 2016.

How can FC20 NOT be a priority does not make sense..... SU30MKI threat is huge and if RAFALE deal is signed in 6 months as expected surely FC20 should be NO1 priority...

OR is the FC20 not ready for EXPORT ????
 
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