Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[HRK]

Does anyone have a larger image of this one ???

Seems as if the typical "supporting rods" above this J-10's intake were modified or even removed.

View attachment 259656

 

[Deino]

Thanks ... so this small one was again psed !

 

[BoQ77]

J-10
. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A “TaiHang” turbofan.
.................
The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.
..................
Shenyang-based AVIC1 Aviation Engine Institute has been developing the indigenous WS-10A turbofan engine, which is also known as ‘Taihang’ in its commercial name. Reportedly based on some AL-31F technologies, the engine is rated at 73.5kN dry and 110kN with afterburning.

The WS-10A development was completed in December 2005 and the engines may be ready for batch production soon. It was reported that the later variants of the J-10 and J-11 fighters will be powered by the WS-10A.

j10history_02large | SinoDefence

Regards
Champ

In 2006 it has been said:
1. J-10 would be with WS-10A. How many J-10 with WS-10A ?
2. J-10B joined the service in 2006 and exports available by 2007-2008. How many J-10B in service after 10 years? How many exported ?
3. WS-10A development was completed in Dec 2005. How many aircrafts armed with WS-10A until now after 10 years?

Can you help?

 

[Deino]

@ BoQ77 !

You really grab out an old report from 2006 (!!!) that made assumptions that were surely completely wrong ? But for what ... even more if You know the answer ??

For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.

1. delayed due to technical reasons ... WS-10A got priority for the J-11B only.

2. Don't know why. most likely simply due to PLAAF's high demand on that bird itself and simply wrong assumptions.

3. again that was for WS-10A for the Flanker ... WS-10B with revised gearbox wasn't mature, reliable or whatever not before now it seems (J-10B '1035' flew in 2011 only).

Therefore IMO the author simply made several wrong assumptions and conclusions ...but raising these points now looks very much like a provocation only.

Deino

 

[BoQ77]

@ BoQ77 !

You really grab out an old report from 2006 (!!!) that made assumptions that were surely completely wrong ? But for what ... even more if You know the answer ??

For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.

1. delayed due to technical reasons ... WS-10A got priority for the J-11B only.

2. Don't know why. most likely simply due to PLAAF's high demand on that bird itself and simply wrong assumptions.

3. again that was for WS-10A for the Flanker ... WS-10B with revised gearbox wasn't mature, reliable or whatever not before now it seems (J-10B '1035' flew in 2011 only).

Therefore IMO the author simply made several wrong assumptions and conclusions ...but raising these points now looks very much like a provocation only.

Deino

The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
And you surprised me to answer "0" to all question.
From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
Please explain more details, ok?
1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
3. .... "0" too ?

The Chengdu J-10 (Jian-10, or F-10 in its export name) is a single-engine, all-weather, high-performance multirole fighter aircraft capable of both air-to-air and air-to-ground roles. The aircraft was designed by Chengdu-based 611 Aircraft Design Institute and manufactured by Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation (CAIC). The aircraft is available in single-sear fighter (A variant) and tandem two-seat fighter-trainer (B variant) versions. The aircraft first flew in 1998 and entered the PLA Air Force (PLAAF) service in 2003. About 50~70 examples are expected to have been delivered by 2006. These planes are powered by a Russian-made AL-31FN turbofan engine, while on later production variants this will be replaced by Chinese indigenous WS-10A “TaiHang” turbofan. The total number of production may be as many as 300.

The J-10 development programme, also known as “Project 8610”, officially began in 1986 to counter the fourth-generation fighters such as MiG-29 and Su-27 then being introduced by the Soviet Union. The aircraft was initially designed as an air-superiority fighter aircraft but changing requirements later shift the development towards a multirole fighter. It was widely speculated that the J-10’s initial design was based on the cancelled Israeli Aerospace Industry (IAI) Lavi lightweight fighter. Despite the denial by both Chinese and Israelis, the high resemblance of the two aircraft appears to support this claim. Russia provided key assistance to the aircraft development after 1990 by helping Chengdu engineers integrate the Lyulka-Saturn AL-31F turbofan engine into the aircraft.

The J-10 is single-engine fighter with a rectangle belly air intake, low-mounted delta wings, and front canard wings. The airframe possesses a large vertical tail, as well as canards placed near the cockpit. The air intake is rectangular in shape, and is located beneath the fuselage. The aircraft is the first Chinese-made fighter to be fitted with a large two-piece bubble canopy to provide 360 degrees of visual coverage for the pilot. If necessary, the aircraft could be fitted with an in-flight refuelling probe.

The J-10 fighter represents the highest achievement of the Chinese aviation industry today. The aircraft achieves high manoeuvrability by using a large amount of composite materials in its fuselage and wing structures to reduce the its overall weight and thus increase the thrust-to-weight ratio. The aircraft design is aerodynamically unstable, to provide a high level of agility, low drag and enhanced lift. The pilot controls the aircraft through a computerised digital, quadruplex (four-channel) “fly-by-wire” (FBW) system, which provides artificial stabilisation and gust elevation to give good control characteristics throughout the flight envelope. The aircraft’s cockpit avionics and fire-control system are also believed to be superior to those of other Chinese indigenous fighter aircraft.

In the late 1990s, the U.S. Office of Naval Intelligence estimated that the J-10 could be as manoeuvrable as the U.S. F/A-18E/F Super Hornet. With its advanced “fly-by-wire” system, the J-10 may have a better aerodynamic performance compared to the Russian Su-27, which still uses the conventional control method. The Hong Kong-based newspaper Sing Tao Jih Pao reported on 29 May 2004 that during an aerial war game conducted by the PLAAF, the J-10 fighter has beaten the Su-27 fighter in all three rounds of “dogfight” in the mid-air.

The J-10A single-seat fighter entered service with the PLAAF in 2003, with 50~70 examples delivered so far. The production continues at a rate of 2~3 units per month. The two-seat variant J-10B joined the service In 2006. The aircraft may become available for export market by 2007~08.

View attachment 51972



Great overview on the J-10/F-10 Aircraft:

http://www.aeronautics.ru/news/news002/news095.htm

 

[Beast]

The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
And you surprised me to answer "0" to all question.
From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
Please explain more details, ok?
1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
3. .... "0" too ?

WS-10A will not used on J-10B becos PLAAF wants super cruise capabilities for J-10B. That will be accomplished by WS-10B which produces 14000KN thrust. WS-10B has finalised design and passed all test recently and is in process of mass production. It will take few months later for J-10B to equipped with WS-10B engine.

WS-10A(13200KN) is an engine designed mainly for the flanker series like J-11B or J-11BS or even the naval J-15. They had tested on one J-10B but PLAAF decided it need a more powerful engine like WS-10B.

 

[BoQ77]

WS-10A will not used on J-10B becos PLAAF wants super cruise capabilities for J-10B. That will be accomplished by WS-10B which produces 14000KN thrust. WS-10B has finalised design and passed all test recently and is in process of mass production. It will take few months later for J-10B to equipped with WS-10B engine.

WS-10A(13200KN) is an engine designed mainly for the flanker series like J-11B or J-11BS or even the naval J-15. They had tested on one J-10B but PLAAF decided it need a more powerful engine like WS-10B.

That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade

It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.

 

[kungfugymnast]

That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade

It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.

Only earlier 1st generation ws10 engine failed as china wasn't that rich yet at that time with high corruption, haven't gotten much knowledge and used low quality material. Only when China became successful and rich onwards, they took quality heavily and willing to spend on best materials. Yes, you can say Chinese only started to go for quality ws10a late.

That is main reason why the earlier batch j10a still use proven AL31 engine while the quality perfected ws10a concentrated on replacing the existing earlier j11 fitted with old 1st generation ws10 engines. Every j10a requires 1x expensive AL31 imported engine is more cost effective than refitting every earlier j11 fitted with 2x earlier generation ws10.

This also explains why china j11 production didn't increase much before and during perfected ws10a became available. Shenyang focus on replacing all existing j11 that still use old ws10 engines with the perfected ws10a.

 

[Beast]

That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade

It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.

You purposely cherry pick on things you only want to see and ignore the others? WS-10A is considered failure just becos it didn't install on J-10A? I think I do not need to remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?

J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model, plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.

 

[kuge]

You purposely cherry pick on things you only want to see and ignore the others? WS-10A is considered failure just becos it didn't install on J-10A? I think I do not need to remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?

J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model, plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.

View attachment 262122

is that true al31-fn-m1 will mate with j-10b for some time to come?
al31-fn-m1 produces higher thrust at 13.5 ton compare with al31-fn at 12.5 ton.

 

[Beast]

is that true al31-fn-m1 will mate with j-10b for some time to come?
al31-fn-m1 produces higher thrust at 13.5 ton compare with al31-fn at 12.5 ton.

New WS-10B produced 14000KN which is the minimal require for J-10B to supercruise. 14000KN thrust is comfirmed by Lin zuoming, Chairman of AVIC during an interview. AL31 M1 engine are just intermittent engine for the time being until WS-10B goes up.

 

[BoQ77]

Just explain to @BoQ77 nicely. The Sino~Vietnam war was main cause that ruined Chinese~Vietnam relationship that led you into argument with him. Most Chinese were against the attack on Vietnam at that time. Vietnamese are still our brothers today, the misunderstand should be solved.

The ws10b will gradually replace existing j10a's AL31 engine when they have reached major service interval and at the same time being refitted avionics and upgraded to j10c. The same goes to existing J11A, they are refitted with ws10a and upgraded to j11d gradually.

So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.

@ BoQ77 !

For all question the answer is !"O" but with certain comments or reasons not known then.

Deino

In 2006 it has been said:
1. J-10 would be with WS-10A. How many J-10 with WS-10A ?
2. J-10B joined the service in 2006 and exports available by 2007-2008. How many J-10B in service after 10 years? How many exported ?
3. WS-10A development was completed in Dec 2005. How many aircrafts armed with WS-10A until now after 10 years?

Can you help?

And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.

You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.

J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?

... remind you the J-11B, J-11BS , J-16 are all installed with WS-10A engine. I have mentioned it many times and you seems to have selective mind, are you? How can a engine considered failure when more than at least a hundred has installed for PLAAF fighter?
J-10A production has ended and WS-10A is too late to be installed on the old model, plus PLAAF are extremely caution despite WS-10A has proves itself so far onboard twin engine J-11 flanker series fighter. Single engine fighter still do have the possible risk of mishap. Now the WS-10B has come out. The big thrust do helps the new J-10B in achieveing the super cruise target and will need some months before going up on the squadron of J-10B. Test has already started and will not be long before installing for squadron. I am sure WS-10B has long tested onboard J-11B with very positive result before going on J-10B.

 

[Beast]

So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.





And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.

You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.

J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?

Yes, the WS-10A production is not very high at the moment. AVIC maybe be on hold now to see which version(WS-10B or C) is deemed the best for big mass production plus the fact, they are many spare AL-31 lying around.

Plus a production line usually takes many years to complete the production of certain product (for example a run of 10years) to satisfy employment of technician and to ensure non overproduction and over run of cost.

WS-10A engine production line.

Highly precise CNC machinery making WS-10A blade at 0.001mm

J-11BS flying with WS-10A engine

 

[kungfugymnast]

So Deino surprised me to say that ZERO of WS-10A used. See his answer to my 3 questions. He said "0" to all question.
That make me curious and ask him to explain in details.





And tell me, whether China did apply the 5 years plan to measure the development and give direction for next. 10 years means 2x 5 years plans, if you don't know what achieved in the previous plan, how you adjust the next 5 years plan?
And actually, the progress looks so slow, if we face directly the figures.

You could answer one by one of my 3 questions while opposing the Deino's answer when he said "0" to all of my question including "how many aircrafts with WS-10A". Your post proved that "J-10B in service in 2006" statement is totally wrong.
The report was posted in 2006 by the PDF Admin, See the page 1.

J-10A built quite long, so I think it's time for replace old Al-31 engine by something. What 's candidate?
China can't simply put J-10A into the trashcan, right?
How many J-11B used WS-10A? Why WS-10A isn't for J-10A as replacement of Al-31 while it was designed to do so at initial phase? Lack of productivity?

You want to know how many j11 fitted with proper ws10a, count the numbers of j11b/bs/d, j15, j16 in PLAAF and PLAN active service currently.

As for number of J10 with WS10B engine, you can look at how many j10C available at the moment.

 

[Deino]

@ BoQ77 I really do not understand what You try to conclude ... other to make a fuss out of an old report when there were much higher expectations in the WS-10 ... for me it looks like the pure wish to troll.

The report is in the page 1 of this thread and there're some facts ( not all assumption ). For example, WS-10A development completed in 2005. Did they do nothing with it?
And you surprised me to answer "0" to all question.
From what I heard here or there, for all 3 questions, Answer should be SOME, not "0".
Please explain more details, ok?
1. J-10A still doesn't use WS-10A ?
2. J-10B wasn't still in service ?
3. .... "0" too ?

That didn't explain why WS-10A wouldn't on J10A
So instead of using WS-10A, China decided to continue the import of AL-31 before WS-10B is mature ? during a decade

It tells nothing but WS-10A failed. Right?
I'm keen to know what achieved during 2005-2015.

Again and like Beast already explained ... however one point si simply missing:

1. YES, WS-10A was ready but had some severe shortcomings in its early days. The first J-11B unit for example (1. AR, 1. FD at Anshan) had to replace their WS-10A back to AL-31F. Mentioned are reliability issues, mentioned were that SAC wasn't able to manufactur as many WS-10 as desired, many of them had a very low TBO .... and so on.

2. WS-10A is purely for the Flanker-series - and I really don't understand why so many either don't want to understand or like to ignore it - since this tye has its gearbox blaced on to as on the original AL-31F. In fact You simply can't fit a WS-10A on a J-10, period regardless what a few think, say, hope or even report. In the same way a J-10A's AL-31FN can never be used on a J-11 since the FN has the gearbox on the bottom.

in short:
AL-31F and WS-10A for the Flanker-series due to gearbox on top of the engine
AL-31FN and WS-10B for the J-10-series due to gearbox on the bottom of the engine

3. Another issue was that the Flanker is a twin-engined type, whereas the J-10 has only one engine: As such the PLAAF requested - besides gearbox on the bottom and most likely higher thrust - a much improved reliability ... maybe this wasn'r granted for the WS-10B or the AL-31FN was superior in this regard.

4. Even if delivering a slightly higher thrust in reheat, the WS-10A/B is said to have a slightly lower response to accelearte (notr sure how to explain correctly) or the AL-31-series has a faster response to reach full thrust.

5. Ergo due to all reasons above... the PLAAF/PLANAF decided to use the WS-10A in their Flankers first and to retain the reliable AL-31FN for the J-10. Here we have to note that with the second batch of WS-10A we haven't seen any newbuild Flanker coming off SAC's production line since then without the WS-10A. As such to call the Taihang a failiure is simply stupid, plain wrong and only shows that the one who insists in that version has no idea.

6. In the meantime - by 2010/11 - the WS-10B was actually ready and therefore tested in the 5. J-10B prototype numbered '1035' .... it was most likely a success, however the PLAAF demanded again higher thrust and improved performances due to enable the AESA. Here again delays occured ... until now as it seems.

As such back to Your question and my answer:

1. YES, J-10A does not use WS-10A ... simply since it can't. You can't mount a Formula I's motor into a VW Golf. period and that's not the engine's fault.

2. J-10B in service: here were are discussiong. IMO it is in service at least with the FTTC and most likely IMO also in one so far unknown regiment. Others don't agree with me here ... but anyway they are all flying on AL-31FN series 3.

3. WS-10B on J-10B/C: so for onyl one WS-10B tested on J-10B '1035' and following the latest reports one more improved WS-10B (some say WS-10G) on that new J-10C. Operationally so for is none.

So ... I really hope this hyping of "WS-10 is a failiure" can end now.

Deino