Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[ababeel22]

man has a point, may be he exaggerated the economic constraints lil bit, but still a valid point

 

[TAC]

Lets have reality check.

The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.

All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.

I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation

THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.

ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.

AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase.

I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters.

HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic

just economic reality

For aircraft carriers - your point is valid, for nuclear subs not nearly as valid and for 5th gen fighters totaly invalid. 5th gen fighters are surely expensive but to have the capability you do not need to match fighter numbers - a squadron or two will do just fine. Despite financial contraints you can be sure that Pakistan will get that as a minimum- in the same way they got AWACS, refuelers, misiles, nuclear weapons etc etc despite all the same financial constraints you dwell on.

With regard to where the 5th gen fighter will come from -- one word - China (and with nice easy credit terms too). Read up on the J-31/F60 - You will see that independant observers agree that first flight is immenant and this aircraft is likely export orientated. Whether PAF gets it or something like it before or after PAKFA enters service with IAF is irelevant. However I would suggest you read up on the already significant delays to PAKFA induction thanks to Indias insistance on its own input into the type.

With regard to FC-20 / J-10 induction into PAF --- former ACM is on record as stating 36 / 40 FC-20 in PAF by 2016 -- thats 4 years away -- and as you will be well aware such inductions/plans easily slip by a few years - just look at all the massive delays in IAF inductions. So don't worry - the type is coming from a close ally only too keen to offer it with cheap credit - it will come as and when it is ready and PAF is ready for it.

 

[Kloitra]

Nice Taimi, I admit you are a great debater.

PS: You still fail to justify your reply to storm force. Feel free to decline to reply though.

 

[abdulbarijan]

Lets have reality check.

The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.

All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.

I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation

THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.

ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.

AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase.

I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters.

HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic

just economic reality

Long time no see .... I see Stormy man hasn't changed ...
Anyways I'm sorry but I have to ask such personal question however seeing your views just made me a little curious...

-What degree do you hold in economics that you are able to forecast Pakistan's economic situation 8-9 years away ( "Scheduled" 5th generation induction by IAF ) while leading world economists fail to correctly predict the future precisely and end up just giving rough estimates ....

-Secondly just consider the economic boom that Pakistan had in the early 2000's

-As for the twin engined doctrine ... PAF was operating a twin engined A-5 if I remember correctly, its not about twin or single engined, Its about what PAF thinks it NEEDS.IF PAF thinks it needs a stealthy fighter to stay in the game then you will see a drastic change in plans to accommodate that need, as PAK-FA induction is ten folds more threatening then the MMRCA contract for IAF, As many have suggested you might even see a sudden skip of half a generation straight on to the big prize ....

-For the J-10 induction, LCA induction was talked about since the 90's so what went wrong ..

And lastly please show us again your pure knowledge on economics suggesting that Indian economy will grow at the same pace and will not be effected in the future, for all we know anything can happen in 8-9 years.... Its always about IF's and BUTS's in the matter of future considerations ....

 

[SBD-3]

pakistan need to give bangladesh his 4+ genration aircraft to bangladesh , so bd military can stop myanmar from killing all these muslim innocent in rakhaine state

Quite a statement given the fact that BD closed its borders for rakhaine muslims seeking refuge in BD....

 

[graphican]

Nice Taimi, I admit you are a great debater.

PS: You still fail to justify your reply to storm force. Feel free to decline to reply though.

Storm Force has a thinking pattern which is partly biased and partly ill-informed. He shows up every time you hear something good about JFT or FC20 and tries to bring his "economy", "no-news-since-long" and "not-confirmed-deals" theories. His posts have an element of intention more but they are poor at substance. Unlike India, Pakistan or China do not disclose their deals, procurement or plans unless they are already a reality. FC20 deal is not finalized but I fail to understand why do Chinese release FC20 details and technical images when they already have J10, J10A and J10Bs running and flying. A blind man needs to "see" something before understanding it fully but "blind at mind" cannot "see" even when things are visible to him.

Regarding J-20, Pakistan has requirements of single engined stealth fighter.. so even if J-20 was offered and we had all the money which it needed, it wasn't the "toy" Pakistan wanted. Pakistan and China has signed MOU (and probebly a lot more than just MOUs) to prepare single engine stealth fighters but as I mentioned, "blinds cannot see" and would argue everytime every where they had a chance.

And finally, you talk with people and reply to people who you think have chances of understanding. That concludes my whole point of discussion.

 

[Kloitra]

Storm Force has a thinking pattern which is partly biased and partly ill-informed. He shows up every time you hear something good about JFT or FC20 and tries to bring his "economy", "no-news-since-long" and "not-confirmed-deals" theories. His posts have an element of intention more but they are poor at substance. Unlike India, Pakistan or China do not disclose their deals, procurement or plans unless they are already a reality. FC20 deal is not finalized but I fail to understand why do Chinese release FC20 details and technical images when they already have J10, J10A and J10Bs running and flying. A blind man needs to "see" something before understanding it fully but "blind at mind" cannot "see" even when things are visible to him.

Regarding J-20, Pakistan has requirements of single engined stealth fighter.. so even if J-20 was offered and we had all the money which it needed, it wasn't the "toy" Pakistan wanted. Pakistan and China has signed MOU (and probebly a lot more than just MOUs) to prepare single engine stealth fighters but as I mentioned, "blinds cannot see" and would argue everytime every where they had a chance.

And finally, you talk with people and reply to people who you think have chances of understanding. That concludes my whole point of discussion.

I would not have bothered to reply, let alone try to have a discussion if Taimi's reply had some 'substance', which is expected from a senior moderator.

I didn't even comment regarding FC20. My only contention was regarding J20, a mod supporting the view of having J20 in PAF - this theory needs to be have some explicit support. Then again, you see him replying me subjectively, without any tangible matter.

PAF getting some single engine stealth, I don't know and I have no comment. Had that been a point, I would read and walk away. But if you say before IAF, than that needs justification.

 

[Storm Force]

LETS KEEP THE DEBATE civilised and leave the personal attacks guys.

For PAF they are not party to or involved in any fifth generation project with China. The chinease themselves are a very secretive race especially weary of their latest technology finding its way to USA. With Pakistan in some quarters stil a USA ally some chinease may consider selling J20/J31 to be a national risk.. Cerainly cant see this arriving in Pakistan in the 2020 timeframe.

As for FC20 which this topic covers i have said before the main reason PAF have not already signed for 40 J10/FC20 is they have reservations

1. THE FC20 will cost by pakistani standrards BIG money and for the last 5 years pakistan has struggled severly in terms of finance.

2. FC20/J10 at this is not offering the new range of weapons and radar that cannot be acquired already or soon on the JFT. Its pointless having 2 platforms offering identical radars & weapons.

3. Some PAF top brass feel the best MMRCA is stil more F16s esp block 52S with it massive range of multi role weapons .

Some Pakistanis feel if they can make USA/PAK relations better they should spernd the limited funds on more F16s

4. Some feel PAF is awaiting for MMRCA to be finalised and signed before showing their response bEFORE signing for FC20
AS THEIR RESPONSE........

the truth is nobody knows for sure we are speculating

 

[TaimiKhan]

I would not have bothered to reply, let alone try to have a discussion if Taimi's reply had some 'substance', which is expected from a senior moderator.

I didn't even comment regarding FC20. My only contention was regarding J20, a mod supporting the view of having J20 in PAF - this theory needs to be have some explicit support. Then again, you see him replying me subjectively, without any tangible matter.

PAF getting some single engine stealth, I don't know and I have no comment. Had that been a point, I would read and walk away. But if you say before IAF, than that needs justification.

U have joined in Sept 2012, while i am here since a long time/ If you can properly read, then re-read my last 2-3 posts, i explicitly mentioned J-20 is not the aircraft we want or have in mind.

PAF first requirement is a single engine stealth platform, and i have mentioned this many times, but if a single engine platform is not feasible, then may be something on the basis of J-31. J-20 is not what we want or have desire for.

Hope i am clear this time.

 

[Kloitra]

U have joined in Sept 2012, while i am here since a long time/

I do admit I am not as knowledgeable as you are, but this has anything to do with our joining date.

If you can properly read, then re-read my last 2-3 posts, i explicitly mentioned J-20 is not the aircraft we want or have in mind.

PAF first requirement is a single engine stealth platform, and i have mentioned this many times, but if a single engine platform is not feasible, then may be something on the basis of J-31. J-20 is not what we want or have desire for.

Hope i am clear this time.

From your reply to me and storm force, I had assumed/misunderstood that you are saying otherwise. You are not, so I have no further arguments.

Peace.

 

[fatman17]

AVIC of China launches aero engine development roadmap

Author:Jon Grevatt

Last posted:2012-Oct-30



The Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) has announced the introduction of a technology roadmap to accelerate the development of advanced aero engines for military/commercial applications.

A statement by the state-owned group on 29 October said the roadmap will be implemented by one of its major aero engine subsidiaries, the Liming Aero-Engine Manufacturing Corporation (LMAC) in Shenyang, and will encompass a range of activities intended to bolster existing development programs.

AVIC said the roadmap will include an outline of a "hierarchical classification" of required technologies and plans to enhance independent research and development, testing and evaluation, system integration, and manufacturing, as well as technical development and training for LMAC personnel. AVIC added that LMAC will be tasked with "enhancing technical capacity to carry out solid technical foundation, to seek technical breakthroughs in key technologies, and to [address] bottlenecks".

The aero engine technology roadmap is one of several activities that AVIC has introduced in recent years intended to address what is regarded as one of its key industrial shortcomings. These activities - which are geared primarily towards improving research and development - are supported by a continuing industrial consolidation process and expansive financial resources.

AVIC said in 2010 that it would spend at least USD300 million a year on aero-engine development programs and the corporation is also reportedly seeking additional funding from the central Chinese government to support these efforts further.

Over the past decade or more LMAC has spearheaded China's program to develop the WS-10 and WS-13 jet engines. Success, however, has been limited and most major Chinese military aircraft continue to use Russian or Ukrainian systems.

In the commercial aerospace sector too, success is yet to be evidenced. For instance, the engine to power China's flagship C919commercial jet airliner, which is expected to make its first flight in 2014, will be provided by CFM International: a joint venture between GE Aviation and Safran. CFM signed a deal to provide engines based on its LEAP power plant under a contract signed in December 2009.

DW

 

[bhedgehog]

Is there any further news on the 40 J10 export we were discussing?

 

[trident2010]

Over the past decade or more LMAC has spearheaded China's program to develop the WS-10 and WS-13 jet engines. Success, however, has been limited and most major Chinese military aircraft continue to use Russian or Ukrainian systems.

DW

I think developing a reliable, world class fighter engine is proving to be an Achilles' heel for both India and China. China's efforts should be lauded that they are doing it without much help from outside. Why India is not able to produce a good engine despite all the help they can get from outside, reflects bad management within the organisations.

 

[PakShaheen79]

Is there any further news on the 40 J10 export we were discussing?

I think it's all nothing but speculations. In 2006, then PM just hinted in National Assembly that Pakistan would acquire some 36 J-10 but after that there is nothing on that from PAF or MoD. So, right now, it is nothing but speculations.

 

[Arsalan]

I think it's all nothing but speculations. In 2006, then PM just hinted in National Assembly that Pakistan would acquire some 36 J-10 but after that there is nothing on that from PAF or MoD. So, right now, it is nothing but speculations.

Nothing has been inked yet.
Most probably we are all waiting for the Chinese Engine and the results of JF-17 Blk-II!!
If PAF gets an improved radar and a better engine, as suggested that they may well be looking for it, then we might not even see the J-10. The weapons JF-17 BLK-II (considering a better more powerful engine is acquired) can or will be able to carry along side a better radar will fill in the gap of J-10. If this happen, the next new platform that we see in PAF colors may well be a generation leap!

JUST SPECULATING
Only thing for sure is that THE J-10 DEAL HAVEN'T BEEN INKED YET AND WE ARE MOST PROBABLY WAITING FOR CHINESE ENGINE

regards!