Chengdu J-10 Multirole Fighter Air Craft News & Discussions

[IceCold]

More interesting would be reliable infos about the final technical capablity of the fighter and it's final specs! PESA or AESA, emptyweight, engine thrust, new avionics...

Does it really matter when we wont be getting it anytime soon and by the time we do, it really will not make much of a difference in terms of technically capability.

 

[fatman17]

Thursday, October 18, 2012


Status of J-10


Recently, we've seen what appears to be the last batch of J-10A fighter jets making their test flights. The 6th batch of J-10As number all the way up to 637 were seeing making test flights. That indicates there are at least 37 J-10As in this 6th batch. There were also at least 37 J-10As in the 6th batch. One of the commonly asked questions now that J-10A is drawing to a close is how many of these planes are there. If we assume that each of 6 J-10A and 2 J-10S batches have around 37 aircraft, then theer would be 8 * 37 = 296 J-10s. Based on the number of actual regiments we've seen, this seems to be quite unlikely. While the 2nd j-10S batch and the last 2 J-10A batch have produced between 35 to 40 J-10s, the earlier batches probably had smaller number of aircraft.

As far as we can tell, there are 7 PLAAF regiments of J-10 (in 44, 3, 2, 1, 24, 9, 15th division) and 1 PLANAF regiment. In addition, there are also 12 J-10s serving at the August first flight demonstration team and somewhere betwen 15 and 20 J-10s serving with FTTC as aggressor squad. There should be 24 J-10s serving in the PLANAF regiment and 28 J-10s serving in most PLAAF regiments (although we may have 36 serving in the 24th division regiment). Assuming that the last batch of J-10s will be used to fully form the 15th division regiment, we should have at most 24 + 12 + 20 + 28 * 6 + 36 = 260 J-10s in service at that time. If we factor in a few crashed and replaced J-10s, we are only around 30 off that first calculation of 296 J-10s.

The next question is whether or not the number of engines adds up. Based on some help from fellow SDF member asif iqbal, it seems like the delivery of AL-31FN from Russia have been the following.

54 ordered in 2000 delivered between 2001-2005
100 ordered in 2005 delivered between 2005-2008
122 ordered in 2009 delivered between 2010-2011
123 ordered in 2011 delivery’s due between 2011-2013

That would represent 399 AL-31FNs delivered by sometimes next year. A couple of those have probably been used for the J-10B program while a good number of them will be used as spare engines for J-10s. An estimate of 250 J-10A and J-10S by the end of J-10A production run does not seem too crazy. The question of power plant for J-10 is kind of puzzling. It seems like the first batch of J-10B will also be using the base version of AL-31FN. While I do expect J-10B to eventually use WS-10A, it doesn't seem like that will be the case yet. At the same time, if PLAAF does place another order for AL-31FN, I think it would be quite disappointing if it will not be for a higher thrusted version.

At this point, the J-10B project has already been flying for close to 4 years. I had expected to already see the first batch of J-10B to come out by now, but it looks like we will have to wait until next year for that. It does seem like CAC has lost some of its shine recently to the number of new aircraft showing up at SAC. There could be many reasons for the amount of time they have been testing out the J-10B project. A lot of resources are used up for the J-20 projects while production for J-10A remains quite strong. But in the end, I think the change from J-10A to J-10B is quite a large change. CAC is testing out a lot of new technologies that will also be used for other projects.

CANP

 

[sancho]

Does it really matter when we wont be getting it anytime soon and by the time we do, it really will not make much of a difference in terms of technically capability.

That's the point, do we know that it won't make much difference? I was a fan of the J10 as a plattform for a long time and had high expectations about the B version. The mix between cost-effectiveness and capability would be way more deadly and difficult to counter for IAF, than all the Flanker versions in PLAAF.

From PAFs point this is even more crucial, because if the capability is broadly similar to JF 17, there is no use to buy it and add another type of fighter in the short to mid term.
However, if J10B turns out to be a really capable fighter and a 5 th gen fighter is not in sight for PAF within a decade or so, a J10B / JF17 mix would form a very capable hi / lo combo that could be procured in good numbers.

But from what I have seen and heared so far, I am rather disappointed, because I had expected more by now. No CFTs or increased internal fuel tanks, which still limits the payload since 2 wetstations are occupied. PESA radar would be more than a disappointment, it is not clear if the TWR could be improved compared to J10A, or if the weight is still an issue, if they order Russian engines again, it would be a downer too...

 

[fatman17]

AVIC and IAI look to extend industrial collaboration


Jon Grevatt, Bangkok


2012-Oct-12


Senior management from the Aviation Industry Corporation of China (AVIC) and Israel Aircraft Industries (IAI) discussed extending industrial collaboration activities during talks held in Beijing on 10 October, the Chinese state-owned company said.
The talks were led by AVIC President Lin Zuoming and IAI President and Chief Executive Officer Joseph Weiss and also included senior officials from AVIC subsidiary Chengdu Aircraft Industry Corporation. The statement said AVIC and IAI are looking at enhancing previous and existing industrial links but did not go into detail.

Industrial collaboration between AVIC and IAI is well established, although co-operation in military aerospace is kept low key due, in part, to US concerns about the relationship. Israel remains a major recipient of US military funds.

AVIC-IAI partnerships in commercial aerospace sector include co-operation over the co-production of IAI-designed business jets in China. In the defence sector programmes include collaboration in the Chinese programme to develop and build the Chengdu J-10 multirole fighter.

The J-10 was introduced into service in 2005 following nearly two decades of development. During this process AVIC is thought to have benefitted from several contemporaneous international fighter development projects, one of which was the IAI Lavi combat aircraft.

it was reported in 2008 that Russian aerospace engineers with first-hand experience on Chinese military projects confirmed that AVIC and IAI undertook extensive co-operation on the J-10 programme. These activities included AVIC's access to the Lavi prototype aircraft, the development of which was discontinued by Israel in the late 1980s

 

[Storm Force]

I think the PAF feel the additional cost of $2 billion + to aqcuire a chinease MMRCA is not worhwhile.

THEY probablly feel the lighter JFT carries the SAME weapons as the FC20 MMRCA and may feel it does not offer anything duifferent in weapons or radar that cant be used eventually on JFT .

the only major difference is FC20 will carry bigger load over longer ranges.

IDEALLY PAF would like their MMRCA like india,s to be western in origin with western weapons and radars to give the variety.

THIS IS WHY i believe the PAF maybe shying away from FC20

JUST MY GUT FEELING

 

[Fieldmarshal]

that should/is the way to go.

PAF needs to move directly to a fifth gen. Chinese platform/ac. and there are plenty of such Chinese projects in different stages of their development. and my understanding is that PAF has had a very close/inside look at multiple no. such projects.

But having said that PAF will still induct 36-40 J-10B very soon as the performance they offer is right now and before the induction of rafael into iaf. by the time iaf has inducted the rafael in nos. PAF would be induction a fifth gen platform.

Baki ALLAH knows best.

 

[Storm Force]

So according you to you Field Marshall.

PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015

AND THE BEST of your comment

DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease fighter before India.

INTERSTING

 

[TaimiKhan]

So according you to you Field Marshall.

PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015

AND THE BEST of your comment

DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease fighter before India.

INTERSTING

Before you come up with another utter BS post, do research about what kind of 5th gen programs happening in China and with what speed and then compare it with your own Indo-Russo program, may be if you think like a sane person and not as an Indian, you might learn that Chinese 5th gen fighter may become operational much soon before the Indo-Russo one.

 

[farhan_9909]

So according you to you Field Marshall.

PAF will induct 36 J10 /FC20 before IAF inducts RAFALE even though their is no offical news that GOP has signed for such a fighter before 2014-2015

AND THE BEST of your comment

DESPITE IAF being offical partner of he Russian FGFA programme PAF will induct a 5th gen chinease fighter before India.

INTERSTING

This is the difference b/w pak and India

let suppose

if india says we will induct f-22 in 2020.than they will actually take 6-7 years more to induct that before which they have announced in 2012

If Pak want to induct f-22.PAF will remain silent till 2020-22 and than will announce we will induct f-22 in 2025 when everything is signed.may be few months ups and down


Same case here.PAK as usuall will surprise you. be the babur cruise missile(nirbhey announced from the past decade)
and no one knew about pak cruise missile program untill it was tested

 

[KRAIT]

^F-22 in PAF.....or J-20/J-31.
May be discussion should still be on J-10B which is still in hanging with uncertainty. Pakistan has openly showed buying these A/Cs on soft loans that means no surprise, surprise is that the interest on soft loan can't be paid by Pakistan as told by very senior Pakistani poster.

So point is rather speculating, one should talk reality. And if this is going to be a surprise then what is the point of this thread.

 

[Kloitra]

Before you come up with another utter BS post, do research about what kind of 5th gen programs happening in China and with what speed and then compare it with your own Indo-Russo program, may be if you think like a sane person and not as an Indian, you might learn that Chinese 5th gen fighter may become operational much soon before the Indo-Russo one.

Lets say, J-20 starts to be inducted in Chinese air force by 2015. There manufacturing capacity be 30 per year. so by 2020, they would still have less than 180 birds. That is the time, which all sanity dictates IAF will get atleast firsts of their 5 gen. Do you think China would start exporting before fulfilling their own requirements? I dont see PAF getting 5 gen sooner than IAF, thinking not even as an Indian!

Also, current economic condition of Pakistan doesnt suggest PAF to be getting a twin engine, let alone a twin engine 5 gen anytime soon.

I cant help but consider your post to be rant than actually a counter-argument, considering your standing - senior moderator.

 

[TaimiKhan]

Lets say, J-20 starts to be inducted in Chinese air force by 2015. There manufacturing capacity be 30 per year. so by 2020, they would still have less than 180 birds. That is the time, which all sanity dictates IAF will get atleast firsts of their 5 gen. Do you think China would start exporting before fulfilling their own requirements? I dont see PAF getting 5 gen sooner than IAF, thinking not even as an Indian!

Also, current economic condition of Pakistan doesnt suggest PAF to be getting a twin engine, let alone a twin engine 5 gen anytime soon.

I cant help but consider your post to be rant than actually a counter-argument, considering your standing - senior moderator.

Well before considering my argument to be a rant, why don't you first consider your argument to be a rant as you brought in J-20 and its induction theory which i never mentioned nor did i said PAF is going to get J-20. So consider your argument to be a rant out of frustration rather then trying to show me how smart arse you consider yourself to be. Next time be careful before you utter your BS nonsense.

I never said PAF is going to have J-20 in service, nor it will have it. I just said look at how much 5th gen programs Chinese have and their progress and then look at what Russians are doing and with the history of Russian equipment delays and the recent down numbering the order of Indian 5th gen fighter, we can clearly see where the program and its induction timeline will reach. This is what your countrymen at top defence helms have to say:

"Defence Minister A K Antony has been saying the FGFA would join the Indian Air Force by 2017. On Monday, his deputy, M M Pallam Raju, told Parliament, “The fifth generation aircraft is scheduled to be certified by 2019, following which the series production will start.”"

Delays and challenges for Indo-Russian fighter

And these are all at best for now scheduled guess, the same as LCA, Arjun, that mighty invincible naval carrier etc etc etc.

PAF will get 5th gen around the same time as IAF gets, and when will IAF get is which we all know well.

So it seemed you thought your post just like an Indian and not as a sane member with some logical sense.

So no more diarrhea like in your post above or you will regret this time.

 

[jahidus2005]

pakistan need to give bangladesh his 4+ genration aircraft to bangladesh , so bd military can stop myanmar from killing all these muslim innocent in rakhaine state

 

[Storm Force]

Lets have reality check.

The most advanced fifth gen project in CHINA is the J20 a massive twin engined fighter. At best this will enter service about the time the indo russian fighters enter service.

All of you HAVE intimated PAF cannot afford and does not have an operational doctrine for a massive twin engined fighter which means a J20 in PAF is a non starter.

I would argue even further and suggest this top secret fighter is not available to any nation

THIS LEAVES CHINA so called other fifth projects including singler seaters. THERE has been no flights seen and no real tech demonstrators seen THIS MEANS if there are serious 2nd or 3rd fifth gen fighter projects in china THEY are way in the infancy stage no where near the stage of FGFA or indeed J20 which is china,s first attempt.

ON this basis i think PAF receving any 5th gen fighters before FGFA is as stated just not possible.

AND to really demobstrate this THIS J10 FC20 induction has been talked about by pakistanis since 2007. Five years later despite over 200 J10s flying in PLAAF we have no real offical confirmation of PAF PRESPECTIVE purchase.

I have suggested this before and am not ashamed of this but there are certain types of military hardware that are JUST NOT realistically affordable to buy or operate by certain countries who have massive financial constraints. THIS hardware includes nuclear subs aircraft carriers and YES fifth gen fighters.

HENCE i have dared to suggest that fact.... I assure its not a rant or attempt to derail the topic

just economic reality

 

[Pak47]

Self delete.. In nice mood today.