Can’t keep waiting for stealth fighter, India tells Russia

[Omega007]

Face palm!!

Be more specific kiddo.

 

[Omega007]

How about we show Russians a middle finger??? Finish off the Tejas Mk1 and Mk2 and start designing our own fifth gen fighter.

These people are selling India out. One after another we have been dependent on Russia from Mig 21 to Sukhoi-30. How long can this continue??

Can the Rafale and Russian deal and build Indian planes. I know what I am saying is a fanboy approach. But this is the only way we can show confidence in Indian aviation and engineering. Whats the point of producing 1.2 million of those when they are beaten by government policies.

Not possible within a reasonable time frame. IAF can't keep waiting for AMCA to come online due to the growing obsolescence in their second line fighter fleet.

 

[Last Samuri]

People there are workrounds for every scenario..

If India pulls out of Fgfa because they believe Russia can't deliver the quality and the times scale it will be Indian decision.

And they will have the back up plan worked out.

Without Indian money Russian future arms industry will be severely restricted.

USA Israel and France are all over Indian military like a rash

Fighters transports radars subs joint ventures especially Israel . Poor Russia is left with Pakistan lol lol lol

 

[anant_s]

meanwhile Putin says, then go fucking make your own!

Wish situation was that simple, even for Russia. That fact that India is funding half the amount, makes India about as important as Russia is for India (at least in context of the project).
In case the project fails, India would always have a chance to go for F 35 (even if it does mean no ToT), Russia on teh other hand might find it difficult to find another partner considering how world politics is being unraveling.
China has its own program and all remaining NATO and US allies are banking on F 35, that leaves little margin for Russia. there may be customers as and when project matures, but anyone willing to to co-development, i doubt.

 

[Lil Mathew]

Then you ask why the French are charging you an arm, a leg and a testicle for Rafales?

If everything goes well( like su-30mki), buying an already developed technolgy is more economical than developing it.. Buying helps both parties great benefits.. For example
1. It will substantially reduce developing cost per plane.. That is The total programme cost, as of FY2013, was around €45.9 billion or 57 billion dollars..
That is Rafales domestic procurement cost is only $62.1 million (for a Dassault Rafale C), but When total research and development costs are added, however, the picture is very different, as the average program unit cost rises to $148.7 million. (These are old 2006 figures for domestic market..)
According to French audit watchdog report in 2009, the price of one Rafale was 142.3 million euro (roughly Rs 900 cr). This cost comprised cost of development and the number of aircraft, in which 101.1 million euro was the cost of development.
2. More countries with same plane means more money for upgradation.. Low upgradation cost per plane..
3. Time saving..
Also licencedvproduction creates a number of jobs in India also.. Benefits are many many more.. Same time some disadvantages also.. If no pain there is no gain..

 

[sancho]

Or it might kill India's indigenous defence industries.

If we were happy to only buy foreign goods like Sony and Apple, then what would happen to our own indigenous companies like Lenovo?

You mean the company that took over the PC businesses part of IBM, to gain from their know how? That's ToT as well, just by taking over foreign know how.

 

[sancho]

Same with T-50. Engine is not an issue for J-31, since Klimov is already willing to work on a higher thrust engine and the WS13 is expected to be available with higher (100KN) thrust anyway.

No it's not, since T50 doesn't use old generation AL 31s, but upgraded 117 engine which already provide SC and TVC capabilities, apart from thrust and service life improvements. RD93 on the other side is based on the old RD33-3 series of the original Mig 29s and not even on the latest RD33 MK versions and not even they provide SC capabilities yet to the Migs so far. WS13 with 100kN is a claim that we are hearing for years now, while the fact is that it hardly achived the thrust of RD93 so far and the simple fact that PAF still considers the Russian engine as en option for JF17 tells us something about the progress of the WS13 don't you think? So let them get to the same level of RD 33MK first, before we expects more thrust and advanced capabilities.
But then again, it depends on what Chinas aims with J31 are, since it seems to be an export fighter only, similar to their aims with JF17. They might offer a cost-effective stealth fighter, with limited 5th gen capabilities, while aiming higher with their own J20. That's basically what the US did too, true 5th gen capabilities in F22 only for them, while export customers get the F35 with basic 5th capabilities.

 

[Donatello]

No it's not, since T50 doesn't use old generation AL 31s, but upgraded 117S engine which already provide SC and TVC capabilities, apart from thrust and service life improvements. RD93 on the other side is based on the old RD33-3 series of the original Mig 29s and not even on the latest RD33 MK versions and not even they provide SC capabilities yet to the Migs so far. WS13 with 100kN is a claim that we are hearing for years now, while the fact is that it hardly achived the thrust of RD93 so far and the simple fact that PAF still considers the Russian engine as en option for JF17 tells us something about the progress of the WS13 don't you think? So let them get to the same level of RD 33MK first, before we expects more thrust and advanced capabilities.
But then again, it depends on what Chinas aims with J31 are, since it seems to be an export fighter only, similar to their aims with JF17. They might offer a cost-effective stealth fighter, with limited 5th gen capabilities, while aiming higher with their own J20. That's basically what the US did too, true 5th gen capabilities in F22 only for them, while export customers get the F35 with basic 5th capabilities.

The case here is for low RCS aircraft. Supercruise is not needed for that. You don't need SC or TVC to penetrate the ADGE environment in the current or near future South Asian region. If the other party can detect me, i am already in trouble. No amount of thrust or agility will get you out of a lock of modern BVR or HOBS missile.

RD93 is not a new engine, and no where did i claim it as such. It was slight modification to fit the JF-17s single engine layout. However, improved RD93s are already on offers. Engine is really not an issue at this stage because RD93 is more than enough to power the J-31.

 

[sancho]

The case here is for low RCS aircraft. Supercruise is not needed for that. You don't need SC or TVC to penetrate the ADGE environment in the current or near future South Asian region. If the other party can detect me, i am already in trouble. No amount of thrust or agility will get you out of a lock of modern BVR or HOBS missile.

It's about low detectability which includes a low IR signature and old generation engines doesn't provide that, while modern engines are developed for that and to provide SC capabilities exactly to remain with a low IR signature. Besides that the large amount of smoke the RD93 still produces makes it very visible anyway.
Also if 2 stealth fighters engage each other, with far reduced radar detectability and limited use of EM BVR missiles, you will find yourself in dogfighting situations, or at least in WVR combats. Hobs missiles work only in the limited range of the missiles, which further reduces if it has to turn to your six, while an opponent can stay out of detection and missile range, depending on the capabilities of the fighter.

Engine is really not an issue at this stage because RD93 is more than enough to power the J-31.

You might want to check this:

China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News

 

[Donatello]

It's about low detectability which includes a low IR signature and old generation engines doesn't provide that, while modern engines are developed for that and to provide SC capabilities exactly to remain with a low IR signature. Besides that the large amount of smoke the RD93 still produces makes it very visible anyway.
Also if 2 stealth fighters engage each other, with far reduced radar detectability and limited use of EM BVR missiles, you will find yourself in dogfighting situations, or at least in WVR combats. Hobs missiles work only in the limited range of the missiles, which further reduces if it has to turn to your six, while an opponent can stay out of detection and missile range, depending on the capabilities of the fighter.



You might want to check this:

China’s FC-31 Fighter Disappoints in First Display | Defense: Aviation International News

Modern IR Imagers are very good at locating heat source. Whether you use the burner or not, the exhaust temperature is very high compared to the surroundings. IR can easily pick that up as well. When the IR can pick up the heat due to drag on the leading surfaces of the wing, why cannot it pick up two big sources of heat at the back of a jet? But by that time you are in WVR, which negates the whole concept of 'stealth'........because a AIM9X on a F-16 is as good as a AIM9X on the Raptor.

Smoke is an issue, however, that seems to be more of a combustion problem. I am sure the designers are working on that.

 

[surya kiran]

No it's not, since T50 doesn't use old generation AL 31s, but upgraded 117S engine which already provide SC and TVC capabilities, apart from thrust and service life improvements. RD93 on the other side is based on the old RD33-3 series of the original Mig 29s and not even on the latest RD33 MK versions and not even they provide SC capabilities yet to the Migs so far. WS13 with 100kN is a claim that we are hearing for years now, while the fact is that it hardly achived the thrust of RD93 so far and the simple fact that PAF still considers the Russian engine as en option for JF17 tells us something about the progress of the WS13 don't you think? So let them get to the same level of RD 33MK first, before we expects more thrust and advanced capabilities.
But then again, it depends on what Chinas aims with J31 are, since it seems to be an export fighter only, similar to their aims with JF17. They might offer a cost-effective stealth fighter, with limited 5th gen capabilities, while aiming higher with their own J20. That's basically what the US did too, true 5th gen capabilities in F22 only for them, while export customers get the F35 with basic 5th capabilities.

117S or 117?

 

[sancho]

117S or 117?

Sorry typo, 117 of course

 

[ssethii]

I agree china has two projects , huge production base, money to spare for pak

But to sell a flagship product to other countries even if it's a friend before even it's own country fully inducts it .....

There is no guarantee for their technology or capability to be known for its adversaries .

It's seems impossible to me..

I would say china might sell it to Pakistan when it's own forces have around 300 of them at least..

It's an export product and they use our expert pilots to showcase it to the world.

 

[ssethii]

Things change, maybe one day India/pakistan/China being matured enough to understand the importance of harminious.

The problem with India is they want to play like a boss with their neighbors trying to dictate their own version.

 

[The Unnamed]

meanwhile Putin says, then go fucking make your own!

Putin told you this yesterday night ?