Cannot sit, watch and do nothing

[SinoChallenger]

According to US presidential candidate Bachmann, 6 attempts have already been made on Pakistani nuclear facilities. This is one of the reasons the US is backstabbing Pakistan -- it is very worried that a Pakistani nuclear weapon could be used in a covert attack on Afghanistan forces.

Michele Bachmann | Pakistan Nuclear Weapons | House Intelligence Committee | The Daily Caller

 

[marshall]

Well, China doing this dirty work is not only helping Pakistan, but also helping ourselves.

The loss of Pakistan would be too much for us, even bigger than the loss of Israel for USA.

Israel is a HUMONGOUS liability for the US. It is in no way comparable to the China-Pakistan relationship. The only reason Israel is supported by America, despite the ongoing long-term problems it creates for America, is the Jewish-American lobby. There is no strategic benefit for America to support Israel despite the propaganda that it is a bastion of democracy and indispensable ally in the Middle East. The reality is, Israel is the root cause and creator of enemies for America in the Middle East and beyond and Israel damages the national self-interest of the United States. It is sad that so many American politicians are bought and paid for by the Jewish-American lobby especially given that the great majority of the American people are against unconditional support for Israel.

On the other hand, the Pakistan/China alliance was borne out of mutual strategic advantage due to their mutual problems with India. Today this strategic relationship has expanded and become more important to both countries for several reasons. First, Pakistan's geographic location has taken on much greater importance since Central Asia split off the USSR. Since then, it has become part of the new Great Game that America is playing with Russia and now China as well. If the US can use India to help destroy Pakistan or make it into an American led puppet, then a permanent Afghan and Central Asian presence will be assured and used to help contain China. Pakistan needs China to survive the inevitable onslaught of joint American/Indian aggression and China needs Pakistan to thrive to prevent China from being encircled by American military forces. Russia also needs Pakistan to survive for the same strategic reasons as China, to prevent encirclement by America.

 

[marshall]

That's why i used the word juvenile...I am with you on remote possibility of an American onslaught...But just for the sake of argumens lets assume US attacked Pak...Now please enlighten me how that will turn out to be world war....

It wouldn't. These ideas of WWIII being started from every other conflict are ridiculous and have their roots back in the Cold War days with the language at that time included alot of gratuitous comments concerning WWIII being started. This was mainly to preserve the status quo between the Eastern and Western blocs while they tried to upend each other through less dangerous means via covert operations ala. CIA, KGB and overt operations via proxy wars and diplomatic moves.

As asked earlier are you saying that you have not shared the best with Pakistan and will start doing it now???? Let me repeat one more time...Pakistan has enough fire power to take care of such attacks....they don't have the capability to defend an American full-fledge onslaught...with or without China's help...

China would not involve itself directly simply because the logistics make its effective involvement impossible. The only accessible land route between Pakistan and China is the Khunjerab Pass where the Karakoram Highway is only 2 lanes and highly vulnerable to being cut off. A sea route could easily be blockaded by the American navy. This talk of direct Chinese military involvement is basically impossible and would be suicide for China. However, this same logic also applies to the US who without resupply to Afghanistan through Pakistan could not possibly sustain a full fledged military conflict with Pakistan UNLESS India allowed American basing rights on Indian territory. This would change the picture dramatically, but it is also unlikely. First, India would become a client state of the US if this happened and therefore alienate Russia who is clearly trying to limit American influence in Central Asia. Second, and much more importantly, any large scale land invasion of Pakistan from Indian territory would absolutely involve nuclear weapons if Pakistan's existence were threatened. It makes no sense for the US to attack Pakistan because it could not win this way. It's more likely something is happening behind the scenes and operations are underway to usurp the current Pakistani government with a pro-American figurehead.

 

[marshall]

According to US presidential candidate Bachmann, 6 attempts have already been made on Pakistani nuclear facilities. This is one of the reasons the US is backstabbing Pakistan -- it is very worried that a Pakistani nuclear weapon could be used in a covert attack on Afghanistan forces.

Michele Bachmann | Pakistan Nuclear Weapons | House Intelligence Committee | The Daily Caller

There is no proof that attempts against the 15 nuclear sites were made by jihadists. The reason why I doubt her story is because Michelle Bachmann is a known bullsh**ter and has been caught on numerous occasions making up phony stories to support whatever she is saying at the time. She is not a reliable source of information. Let's pray somebody of her caliber does not make it into the White House.

 

[sohailbarki]

who said china isn't doing anything. they are issuing another warning.
noobs

So what you think they should attack USA. i think china will first test it military might on india and then on anybody else.

 

[marshall]

IF CHINA doesn't wanna send troops and best weapons to Pakistan, I think Pakistan should tie up friendship with Russia from now , I think Russia will have strong action to NATO after that.

At least CHINA must send some warships like Russia doing in Syria. NATO haven't entered into Syria's soil too.

The only situation where Russia would support Pakistan is if India clearly crossed the line by allowing American troops into India. This would show Russia that India was giving the US the go-ahead to take Pakistan out, and by extension seize permanent basing rights in Central Asia. This would be a direct threat to Russia. The likelihood of this is almost zero. Concerning China sending its navy, it would be utter suicide. The likelihood of this is zero.

 

[SinoChallenger]

Israel is a HUMONGOUS liability for the US. It is in no way comparable to the China-Pakistan relationship. The only reason Israel is supported by America, despite the ongoing long-term problems it creates for America, is the Jewish-American lobby. There is no strategic benefit for America to support Israel despite the propaganda that it is a bastion of democracy and indispensable ally in the Middle East. The reality is, Israel is the root cause and creator of enemies for America in the Middle East and beyond and Israel damages the national self-interest of the United States. It is sad that so many American politicians are bought and paid for by the Jewish-American lobby especially given that the great majority of the American people are against unconditional support for Israel.

That is definitely true. However, without Jews, America would be a very different place. If not for the Jews, there would be no Hollywood, no LA, no Wall Street and no NY.

On the other hand, the Pakistan/China alliance was borne out of mutual strategic advantage due to their mutual problems with India. Today this strategic relationship has expanded and become more important to both countries for several reasons. First, Pakistan's geographic location has taken on much greater importance since Central Asia split off the USSR. Since then, it has become part of the new Great Game that America is playing with Russia and now China as well. If the US can use India to help destroy Pakistan or make it into an American led puppet, then a permanent Afghan and Central Asian presence will be assured and used to help contain China. Pakistan needs China to survive the inevitable onslaught of joint American/Indian aggression and China needs Pakistan to thrive to prevent China from being encircled by American military forces. Russia also needs Pakistan to survive for the same strategic reasons as China, to prevent encirclement by America.

That is totally correct again. That's why the first order of business for China would be to send hardware to neutralize US air power and advisors / operators too if needed.

China would not involve itself directly simply because the logistics make its effective involvement impossible. The only accessible land route between Pakistan and China is the Khunjerab Pass where the Karakoram Highway is only 2 lanes and highly vulnerable to being cut off. A sea route could easily be blockaded by the American navy. This talk of direct Chinese military involvement is basically impossible and would be suicide for China.

Actually PLA has already upgraded the KKH to handle tanks. In fact, it would be fair to say the KKH is completely militarized by PLA and Pakistan Army already! Before bad weather sets in, China can bring mechanized infantry and MBT divisons into Pakistan to face off with US or india.

http://www.thenews.com.pk/TodaysPrintDetail.aspx?ID=10528&Cat=13

Chinese in Pakistan to help FWO

Waqar Ahmed
Friday, November 25, 2011

ISLAMABAD: Chinese engineers are in Pakistan to help the Frontier Works Organisation (FWO) rebuild some portions of the Karakoram Highway, quarters concerned have stated. They said that there was no truth to reports that Chinese personnel in Pakistan, especially in the Northern Areas, were a threat to Indian security.

Earlier, some reports in foreign media had claimed that the presence of Chinese in Gilgit-Baltistan region and Azad Jammu Kashmir could pose a threat to India, which therefore needed to bolster its military. The Northern Indian Army commander, Lt Gen KT Parnaik, had stated at a seminar, “Chinese presence in Gilgit-Baltistan and the Northern Areas is increasing steadily... There are many people who are concerned about the fact that if there was to be hostility between us and Pakistan, what would be the complicity of Chinese. Not only they are in the neighbourhood but the fact is that they are actually present and stationed along the LoC.”

Sources said that the Karakoram Highway was badly damaged in flashfloods and the 2005 earthquake. They said the highway was a joint Sino-Pak project and Chinese had a major role in building it in the first place.

They added that it was wrong to project threat to Indian security on the basis of presence of Chinese engineers in GB and AJK. “The Indian threat perception is misplaced,” they said and added that India was already the biggest buyer of conventional weapons in the world. “Indian decision to recruit more than one lakh soldiers in the next five years for deployment on the Indo-China border and Indian held Kashmir cannot be justified on the account of the presence of some Chinese engineers in Pakistan’s Northern Areas,” said the sources.

It should be noted that India is raising a mountain strike corps and four divisions. Besides, the Indian army has also planned to deploy two independent armoured brigades in Uttarkhand and Ladakh.

Earlier, on June 30, 2006, an MoU was signed between Pakistan and China to rebuild and upgrade the Karakoram Highway, especially its width which will be expanded from 10 metres to 30 metres. The upgraded road will be able to accommodate heavy vehicles and tolerate extreme weather conditions.

The only situation where Russia would support Pakistan is if India clearly crossed the line by allowing American troops into India. This would show Russia that India was giving the US the go-ahead to take Pakistan out, and by extension seize permanent basing rights in Central Asia. This would be a direct threat to Russia. The likelihood of this is almost zero. Concerning China sending its navy, it would be utter suicide. The likelihood of this is zero.

PLAN warships are currently in the Arabian sea. They docked briefly in Kuwait. As long as China keeps the KKH open we can supply a naval base in Gwadar next to the Persian Gulf and even have a 4th fleet (indian ocean fleet with carrier) docked there. This way, we can protect Pakistan by land and by sea.

So, now, China's strategic thinking is finally understood.

 

[SinoChallenger]

More Chinese troops are deployed in Pakistan Administered Kashmir
Nov 07, 2011 - Rajnish Sharma | Age Correspondent | New Delhi

Ignoring New Delhi’s concerns on the rising presence of Chinese troops in Pakistan Administered Kashmir, Beijing has gone ahead and added two more People’s Liberation Army battalions in the region last month. A classified report prepared by Indian intelligence agencies, details of which were obtained by this newspaper, said while one PLA battalion was posted at the Karakoram Highway Upgradation Project, the other was deployed at the crucial rail link project at Khujerab Pass.

Top government sources said it appeared that Chinese troops were posted to provide security to Chinese engineers and technicians working on these two key infrastructure projects. They added that while Chinese soldiers were already present at the project site, their strength had now been augmented.
An estimated 4,000-5,000 PLA men, Chinese engineers and technicians are already said to be in PAK. Indian agencies have been keeping a close watch on Chinese activities in PAK due to India’s strategic interests in the region.

Sources said both the highway and rail projects were extremely important for Pakistan and China as these would increase mobility, boosting cross-border trade and also defence readiness. The highway project is a joint venture between the National Highway Authority of Pakistan and China Road and Bridge Corporation.

A senior Indian official said efforts were on to see “whether Chinese troops are in the region only for security of their workers, or are involved in defence activities too, including constructing bunkers”.



China should be moving in HQ-9 and HQ-16 SAMs

 

[HavocHeaven]

More Chinese troops are deployed in Pakistan Administered Kashmir



Sources said both the highway and rail projects were extremely important for Pakistan and China as these would increase mobility, boosting cross-border trade and also defence readiness.

China should be moving in HQ-9 and HQ-16 SAMs

That's the real thing. It's a shame that the annual trade between Pakistan and China hasn't even hit $10 billion yet. In the end economic power speaks louder than anything else. Both governments should work on boosting trade and investment especially direct investment.

 

[marshall]

That is definitely true. However, without Jews, America would be a very different place. If not for the Jews, there would be no Hollywood, no LA, no Wall Street and no NY.

The Jewish-American lobby are disloyal Americans and represent a minority of the larger Jewish-American population who are mostly in sync with the larger American population. That is, they are against the Human Rights abuses by the genocidal Israeli regime. Your statements about Jewish-Americans is very true that they are a productive and positive force in American society and culture. It is the traitorous Jewish-American lobby and their supporters who are the enemies of America. Unconditional support for the genocidal Israeli regime has resulted in America's loss of moral leadership, worldwide hatred, worldwide condemnation and accumulation of large numbers of enemies. Unconditional American support for Israel is the tragedy of our time.

That is totally correct again. That's why the first order of business for China would be to send hardware to neutralize US air power and advisors / operators too if needed.

Above all, Pakistan's sovereignty is almighty and only upon the request of Pakistanis should any country provide anything. I would think that Pakistan's leadership has most likely already contacted Russia, China, Iran and possibly the Afghans to form some sort of concerted strategy to defend themselves from random American punitive attacks. The danger is if India gets involved. Otherwise, the Americans will simply get themselves into a quagmire with or without foreign support.

Actually PLA has already upgraded the KKH to handle tanks. In fact, it would be fair to say the KKH is completely militarized by PLA and Pakistan Army already! Before bad weather sets in, China can bring mechanized infantry and MBT divisons into Pakistan to face off with US or india.

Chinese in Pakistan to help FWO

I read about this years ago and the KKH definitely cannot support tanks like you are suggesting. It is an expansion from 10m to 30m so that goes from 2 lanes to 6. The road bed will also be strengthened with a mixture of gravel, concrete and pillars depending on the highway section. The heavy vehicles they refer to are 10+ tonne trucks which often damaged the highway because of the soft earth in some sections. There are several other discussions concerning a railway straddling the KKH as well as gas pipeline that would be part of the IPI (Iran-Pakistan-India) pipeline...minus India.

PLAN warships are currently in the Arabian sea. They docked briefly in Kuwait. As long as China keeps the KKH open we can supply a naval base in Gwadar next to the Persian Gulf and even have a 4th fleet (indian ocean fleet with carrier) docked there. This way, we can protect Pakistan by land and by sea.

So, now, China's strategic thinking is finally understood.

China in no way has any intentions to challenge the American Navy. Seriously, do you actually believe that? Nobody can challenge the American Navy and last more than a week, end of story. The Chinese leadership is not that stupid. Also, Gwadar is not a naval base, it is clearly for commercial reasons and at most a refueling depot for Chinese naval vessels on UN mandated pirate patrols. That's not exactly what I would call an armada. There have been discussions about making Gwadar into the terminus of a large oil and/or gas depot for gas/oil transport via pipeline through the Khunjerab Pass into Xinjiang. This would allow China to avoid the Malacca Straits and provide another energy route into Western China. I think this is one of the main reasons why Iran is so dangerous. It is a primary source of energy for China that will eventually traverse a direct land route directly into China and out of American control. That is another part of the China containment strategy which is another part of a much larger discussion.

 

[SinoChallenger]

China in no way has any intentions to challenge the American Navy. Seriously, do you actually believe that? Nobody can challenge the American Navy and last more than a week, end of story. The Chinese leadership is not that stupid. Also, Gwadar is not a naval base, it is clearly for commercial reasons and at most a refueling depot for Chinese naval vessels on UN mandated pirate patrols. That's not exactly what I would call an armada. There have been discussions about making Gwadar into the terminus of a large oil and/or gas depot for gas/oil transport via pipeline through the Khunjerab Pass into Xinjiang. This would allow China to avoid the Malacca Straits and provide another energy route into Western China. I think this is one of the main reasons why Iran is so dangerous. It is a primary source of energy for China that will eventually traverse a direct land route directly into China and out of American control. That is another part of the China containment strategy which is another part of a much larger discussion.

What you would call "dangerous" is what PLA strategists would call a "crucial objective." China is building rail and pipelines along the KKH and once we start moving in heavy equipment from Lanzhou military region to Khunjerab Pass to Gwadar Port, we'll be able to station advanced coastal defenses to defend our port and project power right into Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf, as well as link up with our ally, Iran.

The US would not like that. China does not need to challenge US Navy on the high seas. PLA already rules the land. Even the US Navy would have a very hard time against China's HQ-9 SAMs and hordes of Type 022 FAC armed with YJ-83 anti-ship missiles. Smart blue water navies are very wary of a robust coastal defense. Ships sink, land doesn't.

 

[marshall]

What you would call "dangerous" is what PLA strategists would call a "crucial objective." China is building rail and pipelines along the KKH and once we start moving in heavy equipment from Lanzhou military region to Khunjerab Pass to Gwadar Port, we'll be able to station advanced coastal defenses to defend our port and project power right into Arabian Sea and Persian Gulf, as well as link up with our ally, Iran.

I'm just correcting some obvious errors that you are making. Gwadar is clearly not a military naval base. It will serve the dual purpose of being Pakistan's third major commercial seaport and China's Arabian seaport entrepot for a direct land route into western China. This is a strategic infrastructure project for both countries. Gwadar is also managed by the Singapore Port Authority, which is a commercial port operations firm. I think you are reading too many China Threat articles from India.

Aside from this, Iran is not China's ally nor does China have any reason to "Project Power" in the Persian Gulf since that entire region are all American client states with the exception of Iran. If you're logic revolves around some sort of nonexistent alliance with Iran, then in that case, China would simply "Project Power" overland on Iranian territory with its land army. That's assuming of course that Iran would allow Chinese army bases, which is unlikely. It's also interesting to note that China has no foreign military bases even in its allies territories. I think you're using American style imperialist foreign policy behavior as your model and suggesting this behavior will be the same for China when history does not support this.

The US would not like that. China does not need to challenge US Navy on the high seas. PLA already rules the land. Even the US Navy would have a very hard time against China's HQ-9 SAMs and hordes of Type 022 FAC armed with YJ-83 anti-ship missiles. Smart blue water navies are very wary of a robust coastal defense. Ships sink, land doesn't.

Are you suggesting America's aircraft carrier battle groups and capital ships would run away from China's FACs?