Cannon or No Cannon:--- In Phantom F4---F35

[MastanKhan]

Enjoy the video

 

[MastanKhan]

Hi,

I am sure that after watching this video---all superstars would be satisfied about why the cannon is not needed---why the original F4 Phantoms had no cannon---after the cannon was mounted---.

Was there any difference in the kill ratio after the cannon was mounted---what did the north vietnamese pilots use to shoot down american aircraft---.

What increased the kill ratio of the american aircraft---?

You will also be surprised to learn that all the vietnamese kills were thru air to air missiles during the vietnam war---.

Watch the video and then do a kow tow couple of times---. Thank you.

Don't forget to watch it all---.

That modern heavier helmet comes at a very high price---. That is in the second part---.

 

[Maxpane]

very informative video sir

 

[lastofthepatriots]

In that case, I suppose soldiers don’t require a tactical field knife and cars don’t require an emergency brake.

 

[GriffinsRule]

Canon.

 

[MastanKhan]

Canon.

Cannon | Definition of Cannon by Merriam-Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cannon
Cannon definition is - a large, heavy gun usually mounted on a carriage. How to use cannon in a sentence. What is the difference between cannon and canon?

 

[Khafee]

Cannon | Definition of Cannon by Merriam-Webster

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/cannon
Cannon definition is - a large, heavy gun usually mounted on a carriage. How to use cannon in a sentence. What is the difference between cannon and canon?

Kindly focus on the subject of the OP, and ignore distractions.

Thank You.

 

[MastanKhan]

In that case, I suppose soldiers don’t require a tactical field knife and cars don’t require an emergency brake.

Hi,

What is an " emergency brake " in a car---and when is it used---?

Have you ever used it---.


And I don't think that you saw the video---otherwise you would not have commented as such---.

See the video first---then you will understand the content---.

 

[Maxpane]

the thing i learn from this video is that its the tactics which matter most not the number of missiles . 2nd point is that training ia very important and every pilot should be master on his machine to get the maximum out of it

 

[Shane]

Hi,

I am sure that after watching this video---all superstars would be satisfied about why the cannon is not needed---why the original F4 Phantoms had no cannon---after the cannon was mounted---.

Was there any difference in the kill ratio after the cannon was mounted---what did the north vietnamese pilots use to shoot down american aircraft---.

What increased the kill ratio of the american aircraft---?

You will also be surprised to learn that all the vietnamese kills were thru air to air missiles during the vietnam war---.

Watch the video and then do a kow tow couple of times---. Thank you.

Don't forget to watch it all---.

That modern heavier helmet comes at a very high price---. That is in the second part---.

You are correct Sir but there is another side to it. The cannon is not needed by F35 for its primary air to air or strike role at the moment but as time passes and more and more F35s take over existing 4th gen fighters, F35 would need to diversify it's role just as it happened with the USAF superstar air superiority fighter F15.

My mind jumped back to an account by Brig. Gen Christopher M. Short, about F15 and it's CAS role that was subsequently developed.

The fact that F15 already had an integrated cannon, helped F15 pilots jump in the fight when they were suddenly required to make the transition to CAS during operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Here is an excerpt from that article, the bold part at the end may one day be written by someone else for F35 :

A Strike Eagle team, led by then Maj. Christopher M. Short, flew overhead during the early part of the Battle Robert’s Ridge.

Short, who is now a brigadier general, said the lessons learned from initial operations in Afghanistan changed the fighter community culture as a whole and directly contributed to the advancement of Strike Eagle CAS training.


For the most part before 2001, the Air Force employed the Strike Eagle as an interdiction asset, breaking through a line of aircraft to deliver guided strikes against command and control facilities to destroy the leadership structure of the enemy. Often, the mission set did not include CAS, and the at-home training reflected that mentality.


But that all changed after Operation Anaconda, the larger effort to remove al-Qaeda forces from the Shahi-Kot Valley and Arma Mountains. Robert’s Ridge, also known as the Battle of Takur Ghar, was one of the deadliest engagements of Operation Anaconda.

“After this operation kicked off, it was obvious it was much different,” Short said. “All of a sudden, we’re doing close-air support on every sortie. The squadron commander was putting anyone who had had previous CAS experience in the front lines, because we didn’t really train to this mission set.”

Short said he was the only pilot in the formation to ever shoot the 20mm gun from the air to the ground. He credited his time in an A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft for helping him keep his shots on target. But unlike the A-10, the Strike Eagle’s gun was designed for air-to-air combat and has an up-cant, making it more challenging to shoot as the aircraft gets closer to the ground.
Short was in communication with the team on the mountainside, and they requested support. Danger-close support.

“And so we shot 500 rounds, 75 feet from friendlies,” he said. “And my wingman made five passes and shot 500 rounds, having never done it before.”

And this, Short said with difficulty, is where the Air Force learned something about communication, training and weapon-system integration. He made four strafing passes at 1,500 feet above ground level, and after refueling, returned to “walk in” successive bombs closer and closer to the enemy forces.

Short said the efforts of his team and the many other joint forces on the mountaintop did more to suppress the enemy attack rather than eliminate the threat.

“We were less prepared to do that than we should have been,” he said. “There were things we could have done better if we’d been proficient and practiced at what we do.”

One aspect that could have changed the course of the battle was the uncoordinated presence of the MQ-1B Predator, an unmanned aerial vehicle designed as an intelligence-collection asset. The Predator flew around the mountain, and had collected data as to where exactly the enemy forces were located.

“We had no idea that the Predator was there,” Short said. “We were strafing, and (Maj. Jim Fairchild, the weapons systems officer) said, ‘Predator on final.’ I didn’t have enough situational awareness left to do anything. I thought, ‘Big sky theory, right? I hope I don’t hit it.’

“We came back and saw all the pictures that the Predator had of the scenario,” he continued. “If they could have just explained some of this. Why weren’t we talking to each other? It was that we weren’t on the same frequencies, putting two and two together. We could have spent 45 minutes over them, making low passes, dropping flares and letting everybody know we knew they were down there. I’ll live it a million times over.”

But while there were difficulties on seamlessly integrating, the overall support from the air assets overhead — including the F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter aircraft, the AC-130 gunship, the Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System, the F-18 Hornet and A-10 — gave the ground forces a chance to disengage, take the initiative and win the fight.

After the battle was over, the time had come to extrapolate and collate the combat data to see how the Defense Department could grow into the well-oiled warfighter it is today.

Short said the Battle of Robert’s Ridge proved the Strike Eagle could perform CAS, and it changed the F-15E community’s view on their ability to execute that mission set. They demonstrated the capability, and now it was time to further hone.

This evolving modernization of combat doctrine involved many people from all the services. Some tactics needed tweaking; other needed a complete rewrite.

For the Strike Eagle, it was a drastic shift.

“When I left that squadron, we were focused on what happened during Operation Anaconda and how do we get better,” Short said. “Now, routinely, pilots are going downrange, and they’re strafing danger-close in their first five sorties in the Strike Eagle. That’s the leap we made.”

A part of that leap included more Strike Eagle participation in the at-home training of Green Flag. Green Flag is a two-week joint-forces event in support of ground combat training at the U.S Army National Training Center in Fort Irwin (Mojave Desert), California. The Air Force pilots work with Air Force Tactical Air Control Parties (TACP) and Army Brigade Combat Teams (BCTs) to hone CAS proficiency, which includes practicing strafing runs in the California mountains.

“There are young aviators now who are better at strafing and CAS that I ever was,” Short said, “because they’re training at an early stage in their career. I walk into a squadron now, and it is second nature for these lieutenants to know that CAS is on the menu of things they might be asked to do. And they’re ready to do it.”

The Air Force has an innate ability to embrace change and grow to meet the requirements of the current fight, Short said. The culture has a can-do attitude and a willingness to adapt quickly, whether it’s to technology or to mission sets. Today’s Airmen are experts at innovation and creativity on the battlefield to get the mission done.

“As you get older, you look back on your career,” he said. “That’s one of the neat things to see is how far we’ve come and what we did to adapt. Our Air Force is agile and it has incredible talent and people with a passion to do the mission.”
​

Link:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...le-make-f-15-strike-eagle-living-legend-65271

 

[MastanKhan]

You are correct Sir but there is another side to it. The cannon is not needed by F35 for its primary air to air or strike role at the moment but as time passes and more and more F35s take over existing 4th gen fighters, F35 would need to diversify it's role just as it happened with the USAF superstar air superiority fighter F15.

My mind jumped back to an account by Brig. Gen Christopher M. Short, about F15 and it's CAS role that was subsequently developed.

The fact that F15 already had an integrated cannon, helped F15 pilots jump in the fight when they were suddenly required to make the transition to CAS during operation Anaconda in Afghanistan.

Here is an excerpt from that article, the bold part at the end may one day be written by someone else for F35 :

A Strike Eagle team, led by then Maj. Christopher M. Short, flew overhead during the early part of the Battle Robert’s Ridge.

Short, who is now a brigadier general, said the lessons learned from initial operations in Afghanistan changed the fighter community culture as a whole and directly contributed to the advancement of Strike Eagle CAS training.


For the most part before 2001, the Air Force employed the Strike Eagle as an interdiction asset, breaking through a line of aircraft to deliver guided strikes against command and control facilities to destroy the leadership structure of the enemy. Often, the mission set did not include CAS, and the at-home training reflected that mentality.


But that all changed after Operation Anaconda, the larger effort to remove al-Qaeda forces from the Shahi-Kot Valley and Arma Mountains. Robert’s Ridge, also known as the Battle of Takur Ghar, was one of the deadliest engagements of Operation Anaconda.

“After this operation kicked off, it was obvious it was much different,” Short said. “All of a sudden, we’re doing close-air support on every sortie. The squadron commander was putting anyone who had had previous CAS experience in the front lines, because we didn’t really train to this mission set.”

Short said he was the only pilot in the formation to ever shoot the 20mm gun from the air to the ground. He credited his time in an A-10 Thunderbolt II attack aircraft for helping him keep his shots on target. But unlike the A-10, the Strike Eagle’s gun was designed for air-to-air combat and has an up-cant, making it more challenging to shoot as the aircraft gets closer to the ground.
Short was in communication with the team on the mountainside, and they requested support. Danger-close support.

“And so we shot 500 rounds, 75 feet from friendlies,” he said. “And my wingman made five passes and shot 500 rounds, having never done it before.”

And this, Short said with difficulty, is where the Air Force learned something about communication, training and weapon-system integration. He made four strafing passes at 1,500 feet above ground level, and after refueling, returned to “walk in” successive bombs closer and closer to the enemy forces.

Short said the efforts of his team and the many other joint forces on the mountaintop did more to suppress the enemy attack rather than eliminate the threat.

“We were less prepared to do that than we should have been,” he said. “There were things we could have done better if we’d been proficient and practiced at what we do.”

One aspect that could have changed the course of the battle was the uncoordinated presence of the MQ-1B Predator, an unmanned aerial vehicle designed as an intelligence-collection asset. The Predator flew around the mountain, and had collected data as to where exactly the enemy forces were located.

“We had no idea that the Predator was there,” Short said. “We were strafing, and (Maj. Jim Fairchild, the weapons systems officer) said, ‘Predator on final.’ I didn’t have enough situational awareness left to do anything. I thought, ‘Big sky theory, right? I hope I don’t hit it.’

“We came back and saw all the pictures that the Predator had of the scenario,” he continued. “If they could have just explained some of this. Why weren’t we talking to each other? It was that we weren’t on the same frequencies, putting two and two together. We could have spent 45 minutes over them, making low passes, dropping flares and letting everybody know we knew they were down there. I’ll live it a million times over.”

But while there were difficulties on seamlessly integrating, the overall support from the air assets overhead — including the F-16 Fighting Falcon fighter aircraft, the AC-130 gunship, the Joint Surveillance and Target Attack Radar System, the F-18 Hornet and A-10 — gave the ground forces a chance to disengage, take the initiative and win the fight.

After the battle was over, the time had come to extrapolate and collate the combat data to see how the Defense Department could grow into the well-oiled warfighter it is today.

Short said the Battle of Robert’s Ridge proved the Strike Eagle could perform CAS, and it changed the F-15E community’s view on their ability to execute that mission set. They demonstrated the capability, and now it was time to further hone.

This evolving modernization of combat doctrine involved many people from all the services. Some tactics needed tweaking; other needed a complete rewrite.

For the Strike Eagle, it was a drastic shift.

“When I left that squadron, we were focused on what happened during Operation Anaconda and how do we get better,” Short said. “Now, routinely, pilots are going downrange, and they’re strafing danger-close in their first five sorties in the Strike Eagle. That’s the leap we made.”

A part of that leap included more Strike Eagle participation in the at-home training of Green Flag. Green Flag is a two-week joint-forces event in support of ground combat training at the U.S Army National Training Center in Fort Irwin (Mojave Desert), California. The Air Force pilots work with Air Force Tactical Air Control Parties (TACP) and Army Brigade Combat Teams (BCTs) to hone CAS proficiency, which includes practicing strafing runs in the California mountains.

“There are young aviators now who are better at strafing and CAS that I ever was,” Short said, “because they’re training at an early stage in their career. I walk into a squadron now, and it is second nature for these lieutenants to know that CAS is on the menu of things they might be asked to do. And they’re ready to do it.”

The Air Force has an innate ability to embrace change and grow to meet the requirements of the current fight, Short said. The culture has a can-do attitude and a willingness to adapt quickly, whether it’s to technology or to mission sets. Today’s Airmen are experts at innovation and creativity on the battlefield to get the mission done.

“As you get older, you look back on your career,” he said. “That’s one of the neat things to see is how far we’ve come and what we did to adapt. Our Air Force is agile and it has incredible talent and people with a passion to do the mission.”
​

Link:
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/b...le-make-f-15-strike-eagle-living-legend-65271

Hi,

The AFG environment is a 'sanitized' environment---where aircraft operate without any threat of surface to air weapons---.

Now give these Taliban some shoulder launch options and see what happens---.

A modern fighter aircraft is not designed for CAS for ground troops or for anti insurgent strikes on the ground---.

My example---that I have been writing about was more about air to air combat than many others have talked about---run out of missiles and get into a dog fight---that was the primary topic---.

And if you saw the video---most or all the north vietnamese kills were air to air missiles---. One would have thought of an extremely agile mig21 to have many a gun kills---but no---it was the air to air missile---.

Air to air missile kills went up after training thru a top gun type school---13:1 kill ratio---.

So---the original problem was not a lack of cannon---but that of proper training---.

So---it remains a very interesting debate---.

The question is---would it be better to remove the 500KG cannon load off the JF17 and put an optional fuel tank in there---. That would give it a fair increase in strike radius---or opt to add 2 more BVR missiles---????

 

[Maxpane]

Hi,

The AFG environment is a 'sanitized' environment---where aircraft operate without any threat of surface to air weapons---.

Now give these Taliban some shoulder launch options and see what happens---.

A modern fighter aircraft is not designed for CAS for ground troops or for anti insurgent strikes on the ground---.

My example---that I have been writing about was more about air to air combat than many others have talked about---run out of missiles and get into a dog fight---that was the primary topic---.

And if you saw the video---most or all the north vietnamese kills were air to air missiles---. One would have thought of an extremely agile mig21 to have many a gun kills---but no---it was the air to air missile---.

Air to air missile kills went up after training thru a top gun type school---13:1 kill ratio---.

So---the original problem was not a lack of cannon---but that of proper training---.

So---it remains a very interesting debate---.

The question is---would it be better to remove the 500KG cannon load off the JF17 and put an optional fuel tank in there---. That would give it a fair increase in strike radius---or opt to add 2 more BVR missiles---????

sir there are news that block 3 dual seater would have configuration of mig 29k so there is a chance that it would give some place for more fuel and it would increase its radius . missiles are good options for replacing gun . its just my opinion. i may be wrong

 

[MastanKhan]

sir there are news that block 3 dual seater would have configuration of mig 29k so there is a chance that it would give some place for more fuel and it would increase its radius . missiles are good options for replacing gun . its just my opinion. i may be wrong

Hi,

The interesting analysis over the years has been that many an aircraft will die without firing a single shot---without launching a single missile at the enemy---.

And Paf has proven that with 2 kills---.

So---what does that mean---? Launch your volleys and run away---.

 

[Maxpane]

Hi,

The interesting analysis over the years has been that many an aircraft will die without firing a single shot---without launching a single missile at the enemy---.

And Paf has proven that with 2 kills---.

So---what does that mean---? Launch your volleys and run away---.

yes sir stay awaybas far as he can lock enemy plane fire missiles and run away from battle field cuz you have did your job which was assigned to you.

 

[gambit]

The North Vietnamese Air Force MIGs went after mostly bomb laden F-105s. Their missions were not to kill Americans but to prevent the bombs from making to the targets. For the F-105s in formation, as soon as one jet was hit, the others jettisoned their bombs in order to maneuver to survive. This part of the air war over Viet Nam not a good argument against the cannon.