Can we do more with Al-Zarrar

[DARKY]

Wait wasn't that Al-Zarrar hit by multiple suicide bombers, IEDs & RPGs & the crew still survived ?

Even If you put 100s of suicide bombers against a tank... the outcome would depend on the explosive used by them and not the number of suicide bombers.

An MBT is understood to take on normal IED blasts with ease.... in Iraq at time M1A2s were called to step on IED and make it blast.

Other than that I would like you to read what happened there... 1 was lost of IED and 2 to rocket attacks.

 

[DARKY]

Wow non of u even know that Non of the Alzarrar in FATA ever have used Explosive reactive armour not even in front ... For your kind information Alzarrar never was destroyed by rpg. Rpg Accuracy is so bad that it cant even penetrate tank at an angle of 30 degree incidence because its not the latest rpg 7. furthermore it was never destroyed by RPG all were IED'd!

Furthermore the Tank as can be seen in the pic has turret part broked out That is not possible by an RPG but an Huge Explosive device and The Tank crew was safe plus the The tank was said to be repairable probably it is repaired.

"Tank is never Destroyed but Disabled or knocked out !" ...

This alzarrar incidence was discussed to death and was found out that it was hit more than 5 times by and rpg at the range of 100m or lesser. Which is Quite and Deadly range for a tank to be busted.

There were Three Theories About how AZ was destroyed...

First that was rejected totally was RPG hit destroyed it ... If you ask me If it cant With stand an rpg AZ project would have been stopped for further upgrades and Bangladesh or sri lanka (I dont remember) exact that which of these countries have selected HIT for AZ standard their tanks...

Second was That After The Ambush of terrorist it was over runned And Demobilized so An AH -1 Cobra used tow destroying tank as well as Terrorists as the tank blasted... (Crew in the beginning Evacuated withdrawing the tank) This was rejected too.

3rd and final was IED incidence By using Motorbikes to Come Closer to tank and destroyed few attempts were crippled but than over runned by many terrorists. hence tank was destoryed but crew was safe... this story is confirmed by the guys who were present their...

There is not tank that can be penetrated by an old single stage rpg today. What's the point of upgrading it to AK standard if it cant withstand an Pathetic Old tech RPG rounds... It aint the RPG 7 but it is some Tandem version or improved version of RPG there are lots of RPG variants .... THe 23 posts says anti tank Rockets not RPG 7 precisely !

Hope It makes it clear.

hi everyone .. its almost a year since this incident took place..... and well we have taken a year to come to terms with this loss .... there are of course many versions to what had happened that day, not any of them is entirely accurate. I will not go in details of what and how things happened there. All i can tell you is that we actually lost three AZ tanks in this particular conflict. One was disabled due to a massive IED blast, but luckily the crew survived. The tank took the brunt of the blast. Its track was broken, lost the idler wheel, the diesel tanks ruptured due to the shock wave and the belly was practically bent front side.
remaining two tanks were lost to direct anti-tank rocket attack. In all speculations they were RPG-7s fired at a very close rage (range does not effect penetration but accuracy for sure!!!). In both the cases, the crew managed to come out alive, but (in both the cases), but the gunner and loader were lost due to subsequent reasons (burn wounds, gun fire)....

Tanks are very powerful machines, but at the same time, they are very vulnerable to close range attacks. therefore the dependence on infantry to protect them from close range attacks. If in any eventuality, the infantry leaves a gap in this protection, specially during a gun battle, that gap is exploited by the miscreants to attack the tank. That is exactly what had happened in the later two occasions when the tanks were fired upon by rockets from a very close range.

Why cant you do with this tank any more.

The hull is welded steel varying in thickness between 99 mm on the front lower glacis to 20 mm on the hull floor. The turret varies from 39–100 mm thick.

RPG-7 variants and specification.

PG-7-- 260mm RHA penetration
PG-7L-- 500mm RHA penetration
PG-7R-- 750mm RHA penetration 600mm with ERA

All figures account for very close ranges.... you can multiply the cosine of 60degree to achieve more realistic penetration values.

 

[alimobin memon]

Even If you put 100s of suicide bombers against a tank... the outcome would depend on the explosive used by them and not the number of suicide bombers.

An MBT is understood to take on normal IED blasts with ease.... in Iraq at time M1A2s were called to step on IED and make it blast.

Other than that I would like you to read what happened there... 1 was lost of IED and 2 to rocket attacks.

Sorry Dude Even if Abrams were ordered to Step on IED doesn't mean IED are not that powerful infact IED's is the most powerful weapon against tanks effective and powerful. There is no Good armour for downside of the tank but just an Anti mine plate which cannot protect from IED's. The IED's is made from old ammunition Yet they are always Deadly against tanks.

The tank was not even fitted with era... But anyway the RPG 7 that is used in fata is no more than 7 or 7l.


The Armour of Al Zarrar is not that of t55 variant Type 59 the New Armour with Air gap is added over the Turret giving it Good protection. As u can see the Front or Turret (inside the New ARmour over turret) is not even Destroyed Crew was safe. The Tank was Completely Disabled and the tracks were damaged. Sorry Dude

I dont agree with the quoted in red armour specification of Al Zarrar there are new plates of Composite armour fitted over the tank so with its old armour an additional composite armour is added further the Era can be fitted.

 

[DARKY]

Sorry Dude Even if Abrams were ordered to Step on IED doesn't mean IED are not that powerful infact IED's is the most powerful weapon against tanks effective and powerful. There is no Good armour for downside of the tank but just an Anti mine plate which cannot protect from IED's. The IED's is made from old ammunition Yet they are always Deadly against tanks.

The tank was not even fitted with era... But anyway the RPG 7 that is used in fata is no more than 7 or 7l.


The Armour of Al Zarrar is not that of t55 variant Type 59 the New Armour with Air gap is added over the Turret giving it Good protection. As u can see the Front or Turret (inside the New ARmour over turret) is not even Destroyed Crew was safe. The Tank was Completely Disabled and the tracks were damaged. Sorry Dude

I dont agree with the quoted in red armour specification of Al Zarrar there are new plates of Composite armour fitted over the tank so with its old armour an additional composite armour is added further the Era can be fitted.

I don't know what has happened to this forum.... the fire power of Al Zarars were upgraded no doubt... but where does it say that armor was upgraded too ?.... care to post a link... other than adding that thin metal sheet which can be penetrated just by the velocity of incoming rocket... and ERA.


The air gap which is considered good for armor is somewhat like this.

And not massive hallow space like on Al Khalid.... and certainly not like the thin sheet covering Al Zarar turret... In Al Khalid it seems more of a design deficiency on Chinese part... while Al Zarar is more like stupid PR make it look good reason.

There can't be any alternative armor... at best you could do was manufacture the whole turret with HHS/HHA however that would make the weight around 45-50ton... which is not the case here.

There is no place to mount any composite armor plates... only 100mm of solid cast turret... leaves little space for the 3 men men inside excluding the driver.

If you read about composite armor... Its all about space where do you mount the composite armor here and where will the Gunner, Loader, and Commander sit/operate.

You don't have to agree... what I quoted is the data of Type 59 tank... which had its turret covered with a thin sheet giving the impression of wielded turret while it was not.... and ERA was added... the lower part of Hull which had poor armor 20mm easily punched by good caliber weapon let alone an IED... was supplemented with another sheet of thick plate to make up for some more protection as far as armor is concerned.

Comparing this with T-72 is utterly stupid and makes no sense If you saw the video where It took almost 4-5 RPG-29 attacks and still survived to see another day.. while your Al Zarar perished against low quality RPG-7/7ls.

I have always maintained that tanks like Al Zarar and Type 59 are better used as target practice or mine clearing operations/recovery vehicle or APC at best... putting it in a battle field is pure nonsense and ensuring that the crew are cook inside... even the 30mm from A-10 would make holes in its armor... from certain areas.

 

[alimobin memon]

I don't know what has happened to this forum.... the fire power of Al Zarars were upgraded no doubt... but where does it say that armor was upgraded too ?.... care to post a link... other than adding that thin metal sheet which can be penetrated just by the velocity of incoming rocket... and ERA.


The air gap which is considered good for armor is somewhat like this.

And not massive hallow space like on Al Khalid.... and certainly not like the thin sheet covering Al Zarar turret... In Al Khalid it seems more of a design deficiency on Chinese part... while Al Zarar is more like stupid PR make it look good reason.

There can't be any alternative armor... at best you could do was manufacture the whole turret with HHS/HHA however that would make the weight around 45-50ton... which is not the case here.

There is no place to mount any composite armor plates... only 100mm of solid cast turret... leaves little space for the 3 men men inside excluding the driver.

If you read about composite armor... Its all about space where do you mount the composite armor here and where will the Gunner, Loader, and Commander sit/operate.

You don't have to agree... what I quoted is the data of Type 59 tank... which had its turret covered with a thin sheet giving the impression of wielded turret while it was not.... and ERA was added... the lower part of Hull which had poor armor 20mm easily punched by good caliber weapon let alone an IED... was supplemented with another sheet of thick plate to make up for some more protection as far as armor is concerned.

Comparing this with T-72 is utterly stupid and makes no sense If you saw the video where It took almost 4-5 RPG-29 attacks and still survived to see another day.. while your Al Zarar perished against low quality RPG-7/7ls.

I have always maintained that tanks like Al Zarar and Type 59 are better used as target practice or mine clearing operations/recovery vehicle or APC at best... putting it in a battle field is pure nonsense and ensuring that the crew are cook inside... even the 30mm from A-10 would make holes in its armor... from certain areas.

If u see the Alzarrar destroyed pic closely the real or original Type 59 turret is inside that is Ball shape Turret or round we can say . Over it the New armour is fitted the small plates are also added over the HUll side and glasis. This is not me saying im telling u an hit guy's words.

This is pakistan not india we know more about Pakistan stuff than u. Sometimes u guys just Come way too far saying Where is that and that.

Internet does not provide the real source to anything so please Research first. Im sorry If I am being offensive but You guys Have so big ego and are stubborn so much !

And All hail Mighty T72 Whatever !

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

As far as i am concerned both t-72 and al zarrar are obsolete.

 

[alimobin memon]

As far as i am concerned both t-72 and al zarrar are obsolete.

Both are obsolete yet Effective in Close Range Under 1km that can only happen in Urban areas !

 

[Kurlang]

The reality of tank hit. watch at 17:10 min

In previous episodes, you can find more details. The story as narrated by Gen. Tariq was that that tanks were used for supplying the troops as taliban had no weapon to stop it. One tank malfunctioned and had to be destroyed so that enemy can't use it. This was the tank whose pictures can be seen on the internet and this particular thread.
Gen. Tariq saw this destroyed tank as an opportunity and made a brilliant plan to trap Talibans by giving them a wrong impression of victory and intentionally allowing them to come close and then dropping a 2000 pound bomb by F-16 and thus destroying the Talibans.

The objective of use tanks in such terrain was to use its fire power to destroy well established bunkers by the taliban as discussed by DG ISPR.

 

[Imran Khan]

yes we can do more like this

 

[Incog_nito]

yes we can do more like this

Send them to Pakistan Steel Mills.

 

[jupiter2007]

How many old Type 59 do we still have in our inventory?

 

[AZADPAKISTAN2009]

Well Unless Tank Engine is 100% Manufactuerd in Pakistan we will be still addicted to Old Tech

> Al Zarar
> Al Khalid 1
> Most of our Artilery

All above are some what older technology and in order to be competitive the Tech has to evolve to counter emerging weapons

smart areal bomblets , or guided small weapons which can wreck havoc on multiple tanks in one go

Alot of these weaponry has been provided to India by US and similar the Apache Helicopter which is a Tank Killer


One of the major issues with Pakistani Heavy Weapons is Lack of visible Tech / electronics or use of autonomous robotic weaponry there is too much "Manual Loading" going on in our heavy weaponry


We need some more goodies

I think if we can combine these kind of weapons with our Al Zarar / Al Khalid that would be a satisfiying improvements


We need a Anza like Solution simillar to how Russians have done with integrated targeting radar and considering we do have good knowledge in Radar tech we could actually make something locally in Pakistan to look after the RPG or rocket issues


With RPG like weapons obviously world has developed various technological improvements which we can try to incorporate in our Tank fleet however it has to be a local effort



Zarar / Al Khalid are both un imaginative for the 2018 world we live in that is a reality we need to admit

 

[khanasifm]

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pakistan_Army#Armour

Pakistan Army inventory has about:
54 T-54/55
1200/1500 Type 59
300/400 Type 69-II

about 1400 Al-Zarrar(Upgraded form of Type 59-II)

So I was thinking that if Pakistan Army had Negotiated with BD and Sri Lanka over the purchase of Al-Zarrar's by even including an AUTO LOADER then we can upgrade our inventory of:
54 T-54/55
1200/1500 Type 59
300/400 Type 69-II


To Al-Zarrar standards and we can buy some T-54/55/59/69 Tanks from BDs and other countries later on to then upgrade them and sell them again. And put more efforts and money over the development and production of Al-Khalid and make it our main stray MBT of about 3000 Tanks in total.

Your info is wrong pak had total about 2000 tanks in service 300 t80 400 ak 300 t85 500 alzaraar and rest t59 II with 105 mm gun even alzarrar has same gun as alk ie 125 mm
Original 100mm gun variant t59 are with fc about 100-200 plus remaining in storage

App 44 tank per regiment it’s about 45 tank regiment s

This info is stated based on what was bought but not all tanks are kept operational so many original t59 are in storage or with fc

 

[Signalian]

yes we can do more like this

we dont have reserves and you want this.

 

[Arsalan 345]

We must keep only type 59 in small numbers to train crew and sell all other types.upgrades is useless.it is a waste of money.all these types are no match against indian t-90s.we should sell all useless types of tanks and should buy new tanks from Russia or China.