Can India’s nuclear doctrine survive clash with Pakistan?

[The SC]

Last time I checked, it was you who got embarrassed by clinging on to your claims without any proof of links.

We have thermonuclear bombs for deterrence: Kakodkar

Says Anil Kakodkar, former Director of the BARC, chairman of Atomic Energy Commission of India and secretary of the Department of Atomic Energy.

Now cry, fool.

@Khanate @Sarge



No you don't.

You can bet on it, and even be assured that Pakistan has weapons you can't have..

Not even half of them. I don't see Pakistan making simulators, FBRs, SLBMs, DEWs, Heat and Pressure Bombs or HGVs and a lot to list up, India has already demonstrated MIRV as well as vibration testing by multiple sat launch many times.
Further, on August 8, 2016, India deployed INSAT-3DR in a highly accurate apogee, simply proves our anti satellite capability.
Over that, we have an annual research and development budget of $50 billions, compared to your $2 billions.

It won't be MAD, it will be OSD, a fraction of India's Navy can make Pakistan NAVYLESS in few days and gap between other sort of forces isn't small either. Cited already about nuclear.

Probably your government knows better than you, that's why they object to Indian build ups and policies calling it India's "heinous" or "nefarious" designs in disturbing the "balance of power" (as if there was any ) in "South Asia".
Be it nuclear or conventional war, Pakistan will lose and India won't even get any substantial damage. Pakistani establishment knows it very well, now sooner PDF Pakistanis realize it, better for them.

Hell, you object to Bangladesh getting two small submarines.. you shouldn't be talking about objections here..
You have the right to leave in your day dreams and also the right to remain silent, because MAD is assured and will be reinforced on the Pakistani side too as second, third or fourth strike capability if it goes that way, but rest assured that India won't survive a nuclear war..

 

[Khanate]

This looks like cheerleading to you?

Yes, absolutely.

Cheerleading would be on the 1st page of this thread. DO SEE IT!

Maybe you should retune your prejudice dial.

On the first page,

• 10 Indian responses
• 4 Pakistani responses

Indians started uttering threats from the get go:

• @Armoured Division: It's simple. If Pakistan attacks one of our brigade with nukes, we willtarget three of their brigades with nukes. (5 Likes)

• @ravi gupta: What three of there brigades once nuclear threshold is breach and we are free with NFU,Our retaliation will be massive with strategic nuke,we dont have tactical nukes. (3 Likes)

• @Anish It wouldn't take more than few minutes to obliterate a small size country like Pakistan.. (3 Likes)

Still want to play the victim?

I'm speaking with facts, so what's with your "tauba, tauba, yeh kya bol diya" attitude?

Facts like you are a cheerleading for nuclear war.

Please get off that high horse, why are you bringing in morality when the dialogue is clearly about nuclear geopolitics between India and Pak?

Princess, is your mind capable of grasping that this is a matter of extinction?

My opinions are based on facts and current events, I'm not saying what I am because of some preconceived notions of superiority, only pakistanis have those.

Aww, Princess is playing a victim again.

India possessing BMD regardless of it being 100% or even 50% effective means we have a chance to "survive" while coupled with Pakitan's having no BMD and India having a credible 2nd Strike capability(Submarine launched Ballistic missiles(SLBM) means Pakistan "will not survive".
As it stands both India and Pak don't have enough nukes to completely destroy each other. However, coupled with Pakistan's smaller landmass, India will have the required nukes before Pak.

And that is why,"Indian may or may not survive but Pakistan definitely won't survive a nuclear clash."

These are images of Indians whose food, water, or air was exposed to uranium isotopes:

These people are genetically damaged in that even their future grandchildren or great-grandchildren will suffer similar effects. So what comes after a nuclear war?

Source: India’s nuclear nightmare: The village of birth defects

Fact enough for you?
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2012/jun/15/pakistan-boasted-nuclear-strike-pakistan
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/18833...b-as-atomic-enemies-edge-to-the-brink-of-war/
http://indianexpress.com/article/wo...istans-nuclear-threats-against-india-3059090/
http://www.firstpost.com/world/pak-...om-non-state-actors-abuse-manual-2410826.html

Just in case it isn't, you have the whole of google to consult to, please don't be lazy.

Quote from Pakistan boasted of nuclear strike on India within eight seconds (The Guardian):

• The general asked Tony Blair's former communications director to remind India of Pakistan's nuclear capability amid fears in Islamabad that Delhi was "determined to take them out".

Quote from US objects to Pakistan’s nuclear threats against India (Indian Express):

• “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us,” Asif had told a Pakistani news channel in his latest interview.

Quote from Pakistan threatens to DESTROY India with nuclear bomb as atomic enemies edge to the brink of war (The Sun):

• Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said: “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us."

As for the First Post article, its an opinion piece. The supposed threat from Defence Minister came AFTER India's ruling party BJP's Member of Parliament, Subramanian Swamy, had urged Indian government to launch an attack on Pakistan even if the ensuing nuclear war kills 100 million Indians.

Read: Subramanian Swamy wants 10 crore Indians to be prepared to be killed in nuke war with Pakistan

So wake out of your "paranoia", your own political elites want your future generation to look like this:

Both images are from Iraq where UD (Uranium Depleted) weapons were used.

I don't think you understood the purpose of this thread.
You want to talk about the ethics of possessing WMDs, you should open another thread.
This one is clearly about retaliation and escalation between 2 nuclear armed nations.

I'm showing you, and everyone else, the consequences of what you are advocating for, i.e., nuclear war. If you can't stomach reality then change your point of view, don't ask me to go away.

 

[ravi gupta]

Yes, absolutely.




On the first page,

• 10 Indian responses
• 4 Pakistani responses

Indians started uttering threats from the get go:

• @Armoured Division: It's simple. If Pakistan attacks one of our brigade with nukes, we willtarget three of their brigades with nukes. (5 Likes)

• @ravi gupta: What three of there brigades once nuclear threshold is breach and we are free with NFU,Our retaliation will be massive with strategic nuke,we dont have tactical nukes. (3 Likes)

• @Anish It wouldn't take more than few minutes to obliterate a small size country like Pakistan.. (3 Likes)

Still want to play the victim?






Facts like you are a cheerleading for nuclear war.




Princess, is your mind capable of grasping that this is a matter of extinction?




Aww, Princess is playing a victim again.




These are images of Indians whose food, water, or air was exposed to uranium isotopes:

These people are genetically damaged in that even their future grandchildren or great-grandchildren will suffer similar effects. So what comes after a nuclear war?

Source: India’s nuclear nightmare: The village of birth defects

Quote from Pakistan boasted of nuclear strike on India within eight seconds (The Guardian):

• The general asked Tony Blair's former communications director to remind India of Pakistan's nuclear capability amid fears in Islamabad that Delhi was "determined to take them out".

Quote from US objects to Pakistan’s nuclear threats against India (Indian Express):

• “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us,” Asif had told a Pakistani news channel in his latest interview.

Quote from Pakistan threatens to DESTROY India with nuclear bomb as atomic enemies edge to the brink of war (The Sun):

• Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said: “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us."

As for the First Post article, its an opinion piece. The supposed threat from Defence Minister came AFTER India's ruling party BJP's Member of Parliament, Subramanian Swamy, had urged Indian government to launch an attack on Pakistan even if the ensuing nuclear war kills 100 million Indians.

Read: Subramanian Swamy wants 10 crore Indians to be prepared to be killed in nuke war with Pakistan

So wake out of your "paranoia", your own political elites want your future generation to look like this:

Both images are from Iraq where UD (Uranium Depleted) weapons were used.




I'm showing you, and everyone else, the consequences of what you are advocating for, i.e., nuclear war. If you can't stomach reality then change your point of view, don't ask me to go away.

Its look like you are against nuclear war,and we will thrust nuclear war on you by firing first.

My dear friend in our nuclear doctrine we have NFU i.e no first use,we will only bind to attack when we are fire upon.You have to convince your establishment to change your nuclear doctrine to NFU.so any future conflict will be free of NUKES,only military will fight each other.
We are heavily investing in Conventional weapon,however pakistan is fastest growing nation in term of nukes.
Your nuclear thresold is so low that you have develop TNW NASAR.

If you are so sincere please read what OP has posted in the said article,Nukes is only deterrence for India and for Pakistan its tool of war.

Please excuse my English but i hope my point is crystal clear.

 

[Indx-techs]

You can bet on it, and even be assured that Pakistan has weapons you can't have//

We have your 25 times research budget and annually win 213.4 times patents than your country, at least respect.

Hell, you object to Bangladesh getting two small submarines.. you shouldn't be talking about objections here..

We are baniyas and we are born with double standards.

You have the right to leave in your day dreams and also the right to remain silent, because MAD is assured and will be reinforced on the Pakistani side too as second, third or fourth strike capability if it goes that way, but rest assured that India won't survive a nucler war.

So confident without any logic.
Mark my words, even God can't save you from us.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

So this prestigious forum, belong to you? Is it your family inheritance? can please provide some source please... so if this forum is only limited to Pakistan then blacklist the IPs emanating out of India and the rest of the world - can you?

It's open to pretty much every country, its accepts membership, it's a viable platform for discussions of mature stature, not like you who continue to behave on a manager that is equivalent to heckling at a fish market!

I wonder what the mods have to say about this?

Being a Pakistani, this forum belongs to me by association. You are here for being a nuisance. As I said, if you dont like what you read, you are always welcome to spew you venom against Pakistan on our own forums.

 

[NirmalKrish]

Being a Pakistani, this forum belongs to me by association. You are here for being a nuisance. As I said, if you dont like what you read, you are always welcome to spew you venom against Pakistan on our own forums.

bakwas, the only person that is spewing venom is you my friend.

 

[Taimoor Khan]

bakwas, the only person that is spewing venom is you my friend.

BS. Rest assured, we are here to propagate interests of Pakistan and its narrative. You can take the hike if you dont like.

 

[MimophantSlayer]

Yes, absolutely.

Then you have tunnel vision my friend.

On the first page,

• 10 Indian responses
• 4 Pakistani responses

Indians started uttering threats from the get go:

• @Armoured Division: It's simple. If Pakistan attacks one of our brigade with nukes, we willtarget three of their brigades with nukes. (5 Likes)

• @ravi gupta: What three of there brigades once nuclear threshold is breach and we are free with NFU,Our retaliation will be massive with strategic nuke,we dont have tactical nukes. (3 Likes)

• @Anish It wouldn't take more than few minutes to obliterate a small size country like Pakistan.. (3 Likes)

Still want to play the victim?

Well that was not my point, I meant for you to compare my comments with the ones on the 1st page and quantify what cheerleading actually meant and that I was not doing it, but being Pakistani means having an inherent persecution complex so you regurgitated more rhetoric.

This is an Indian Section of course you will find more Indians here, you claim to judge all Indians on the basis of a single thread?

Here, let me give you some perspective.

Pakistan

VS

India

Facts like you are a cheerleading for nuclear war.

Ad hominem

Princess, is your mind capable of grasping that this is a matter of extinction?

Ad hominem

Aww, Princess is playing a victim again.

Ad hominem

These are images of Indians whose food, water, or air was exposed to uranium isotopes:

These people are genetically damaged in that even their future grandchildren or great-grandchildren will suffer similar effects. So what comes after a nuclear war?

Source: India’s nuclear nightmare: The village of birth defects

What's the point of all these photos?
Stick to the topic.

So again, prove my statement, " India may survive but Pakistan definitely won't survive a nuclear clash" wrong.

But since you diverted from the issue at hand.

India ranks better than Pakistan in the NTI Nuclear Security Index.
http://www.ntiindex.org/data-results/theft-data/
http://www.ntiindex.org/data-results/sabotage-data/

Ad-Hominem

Quote from Pakistan boasted of nuclear strike on India within eight seconds (The Guardian):

• The general asked Tony Blair's former communications director to remind India of Pakistan's nuclear capability amid fears in Islamabad that Delhi was "determined to take them out".

Quote from US objects to Pakistan’s nuclear threats against India (Indian Express):

• “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us,” Asif had told a Pakistani news channel in his latest interview.]Quote from Pakistan threatens to DESTROY India with nuclear bomb as atomic enemies edge to the brink of war (The Sun):

• Defence Minister Khawaja Asif said: “We will destroy India if it dares to impose war on us."

And?

We are talking about nuclear irresponsibility, not about who "can" or "will" attack someone.
When did India in recent years on record say we will use nukes on Pak?
Unlike Pakistan we don't bring up nukes for every little thing.
So again, stick to the topic.

As for,

"determined to take them out"

Irrational fears born out of crippling inferiority complex. I can't help you there.

As for the First Post article, its an opinion piece. The supposed threat from Defence Minister came AFTER India's ruling party BJP's Member of Parliament, Subramanian Swamy, had urged Indian government to launch an attack on Pakistan even if the ensuing nuclear war kills 100 million Indians.

Read: Subramanian Swamy wants 10 crore Indians to be prepared to be killed in nuke war with Pakistan

Again, one event in the span of decades as compared to regular threats by Pakistan.

We are not on equal footing in that department.

I'm showing you, and everyone else, the consequences of what you are advocating for, i.e., nuclear war. If you can't stomach reality then change your point of view, don't ask me to go away.

Sure you are, now stick to the topic.

 

[gslv mk3]

On Topic: India has 21 nuclear reactors, fast breeder reactors, simulation facilities, (and there's a very good reason that India is involved in program of making world's first thermonuclear reactor under ITER project and not Pakistan),

Ha, we can have a fusion reactor project but no Thermonuclear warheads or even FBF ones. That's what geniuses at defence.pk thinks.

You can bet on it, and even be assured that Pakistan has weapons you can't have//

No you can't. Simply because our R&D and industrial infrastructure is way ahead of yours.

And even if you are referring to the other famous approach- 'beg, borrow or steal', that ain't gonna help you significantly as the technology gap between us & your allies is narrowing down. Let me remind you that we were the first country outside P-5 to develop & deploy SSBNs & SLBMs.

And don't expect the Chinese to part their top of the line technology with you. In this case, I should point out the claims made by Pakistani members back in ~2010 that Pakistan will have access to DF-21D Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile, the much hyped 'carrier-killer'. It's been 6 years and there is no sign of the'carrier-killer'in Pakistani service yet.Meanwhile India is getting ready to test it's first 2000 km range ASBM which we have developed on our own.

 

[The SC]

Ha, we can have a fusion reactor project but no Thermonuclear warheads or even FBF ones. That's what geniuses at defence.pk thinks.



No you can't. Simply because our R&D and industrial infrastructure is way ahead of yours.

And even if you are referring to the other famous approach- 'beg, borrow or steal', that ain't gonna help you significantly as the technology gap between us & your allies is narrowing down. Let me remind you that we were the first country outside P-5 to develop & deploy SSBNs & SLBMs.

And don't expect the Chinese to part their top of the line technology with you. In this case, I should point out the claims made by Pakistani members back in ~2010 that Pakistan will have access to DF-21D Anti-Ship Ballistic Missile, the much hyped 'carrier-killer'. It's been 6 years and there is no sign of the'carrier-killer'in Pakistani service yet.Meanwhile India is getting ready to test it's first 2000 km range ASBM which we have developed on our own.

Well you got all your tech from Russia and now you are trying to get some western tech, Pakistan has a long road ahead of you in that regard..

We have your 25 times research budget and annually win 213.4 times patents than your country, at least respect.

We are baniyas and we are born with double standards.

So confident without any logic.
Mark my words, even God can't save you from us.

- And where are the products of your patents.. do you know that there are millions of patents only a very small part of it ever make it to the market?

- Everyone knows that, you can't help it, you are a country of casts.. you apply that between you, who expects anything else from you?

- Let God decide that, you'll have no choice , He'll decide.. but we are only talking rationally and earthly, if you attack Pakistan , you are doomed.. India will be destroyed.. at least Pakistanis on the forum and in real life are more humble and know that Pakistan will be hit severely.. they are also aware of their capabilities and mark any word you want , Modi's one maybe better than an insignificant low life Hindu, that India will be no more..with all this said the consequences of that Nuclear war transgress all the frontiers in almost half the planet, and just too many concerned countries won't let it happen...You try to invade Pakistan and you show the world that you are suicidal and dangerous for the planet, you might just get hit with surgical strikes from where you have never expected..

 

[Lotus_stalk]

The real question is, will India restrict Nuclear targets to Pakistan ?... will a nuclear war will India endager lives of 1.5 billion muslims ?

India has enough nuclear weapons to destroy 95% of sunni muslim populations, this unofficial nuclear stance is the best nuclear shield... No Pakistani will dare to nuke India

 

[gslv mk3]

Well you got all your tech from Russia and now you are trying to get some western tech, Pakistan has a long road ahead of you in that regard..

Keep that non sense to yourself. We are don't have the world's fifth largest R&D expenditure for nothing. We can definitely send a probe to Mars so much of the Ballistic missile technologies is a walk in the park for us.

And only Pakistanis would believe that the anyone would transfer their most advanced technology. I think that's because you folks don't even have proper R&D.

 

[Kyusuibu Honbu]

Keep that non sense to yourself. We are don't have the world's fifth largest R&D expenditure for nothing. We can definitely send a probe to Mars so much of the Ballistic missile technologies is a walk in the park for us.

And only Pakistanis would believe that the anyone would transfer their most advanced technology. I think that's because you folks don't even have proper R&D.

Just to add

As per 2009 MCTR handbook

India has 81 of 94 missile technologies production

While Pakistan has 39

But hey if that qualifies Pakistan being ahead of India, not much to discuss then

https://defence.pk/threads/number-of-mctr-technologies-produced-by-nations.434064/

 

[gslv mk3]

Just to add

As per 2009 MCTR handbook

India has 81 of 94 missile technologies production

While Pakistan has 39

https://defence.pk/threads/number-of-mctr-technologies-produced-by-nations.434064/

Well that is conclusive proof for our capabilities sir.

 

[Basel]

What three of there brigades once nuclear threshold is breach and we are free with NFU,Our retaliation will be massive with strategic nuke,we dont have tactical nukes.

And you think Pakistan have not calculated all scenarios and prepared counter capabilities.

Pakistan can also launch Massive counter nuclear strike on India.

This is how it will unfold:

1) India crosses the border with its strike corps in a surprise attack.
2) Pakistan uses tactical nukes on military targets inside its border most probably in the desert.
3) India launches full scale nuclear retaliation and destroys Pakistan
4) Pakistan does the same and takes down 6-8 main Indian cities with it.

Result = MAD

A friendly advise for India = Don't cross that freaking border line.

It's not as simple as you have posted, total surprise attack from IA is not possible because Pakistan have good monitoring capabilities on border and don't take chances.

PA have developed it's own doctrine and capabilities combined with PAF to handle cold start type Indian misadventure, new purchases of systems like FM-90, LY-80E, A-100E, SH-1, Panters, and other upcoming systems will allow implementation of doctrine.

Tactical Nuclear weapons are last option on battlefield and Pakistan understand that using those will take war to next level, so all preparations are in place (god forbid) if things get to that level.