Can Indian T-90, T-72 MBTs be considered obsolete?

[Beny Karachun]

yes and no....

The Chieftain made a great interview about his view of russian tanks and tanks on modern battlefield...

What we see is, many destroyed russian tanks without thermal nigth vision... outperfromed by western ATGM and Ukraine tanks with thermal view... a tank with thermal view a well trained crew and good connection to combinied arms like infantry Arty and Air support and protection from drones is a much harder target for ATGM crews ... thermal views on modern tanks can detect infantry and ATGM crews deep inside a forrest miles away ... portable thermal view for the infantry makes the screen that can detec atgm crews even bigger.

The tank is called dead since ww1.... now we are at the doors to 2023 and the tank is the primary weapon in Ukraine

According to Chieftain any "old" tank has a place on battlefield the moment he get thermal view ...

A ATGM Team hiding at the treeline of a forrest is invisible for normal view if you are on the other side of a field 1.5miles away from the treeline... the moment you have thermal view they shine like candels in the dark...and are easy pray for a Arty strike or direct fire.

Hard Kill systems like Trophy increase the protection, but are not as needed as many belive.

The key is see first, react fast, shoot first = survive

Not to forget that like the old Leo2 used by turkey, most of the russian tank units are terrible lead, have untrained unmotivated crew, badly supplyed

There are above 1000 T-90A/M/T-72B3s/T-80BVM/BMD-4/BMP-3 etc destroyed, all equipped with thermal optics.
An APS would have saved almost all of them. Tank on tank engagements are rare. Thermal cameras are a very useful asset that the Russians don't lack, this doesn't contribute jack shit to the tanks survivability, especially in urban environments the Russians found themselves in many times, even with modern optics the field of view out of tanks optics are not good, situational awareness isn't either.

Also people only shine like candles if they're hotter than their surrounding, in very cold or very hot weather this is problematic. Also simply having transparent glass in front of you makes you completely invisible to thermal sights.

Trophy system doesn't only increase the protection, it decreases the survivability of the ATGM operator, the system can point the tanks turret towards the launcher automatically, shoot at him and because the tank shell flies faster than an ATGM it can hit the operators and disrupt the guidance without even using the Trophy interceptors.

 

[Georg]

There are above 1000 T-90A/M/T-72B3s/T-80BVM/BMD-4/BMP-3 etc destroyed, all equipped with thermal optics.
An APS would have saved almost all of them. Tank on tank engagements are rare. Thermal cameras are a very useful asset that the Russians don't lack, this doesn't contribute jack shit to the tanks survivability, especially in urban environments the Russians found themselves in many times, even with modern optics the field of view out of tanks optics are not good, situational awareness isn't either.

Also people only shine like candles if they're hotter than their surrounding, in very cold or very hot weather this is problematic. Also simply having transparent glass in front of you makes you completely invisible to thermal sights.

Trophy system doesn't only increase the protection, it decreases the survivability of the ATGM operator, the system can point the tanks turret towards the launcher automatically, shoot at him and because the tank shell flies faster than an ATGM it can hit the operators and disrupt the guidance without even using the Trophy interceptors.

you should drop the belive that modern tank on the battlefield is undestroyable...
in such a a high intense, long time running war you get casualties, even the Merkava with Trophy would recive looses or a M1 or Leo2 or K2 fitted with Trophy.
Most Russian armor looses are not their T-90, T-80 or T-72B3... most are older tanks and IFV NOT fitted with thermal view and YES the russian MASSIVLY lack them..heck they still need help from Thales to build second generation thermal views for their tanks...
have you EVER seen anyone on a battlefield carry around transparent glasses to hide his ATGM crew behind it... please get real

As I said APS are a great help but not as much needed as belived.... specially in a real war were two large Armys figth each other and not terrorists stitting behind a bush, which 100 of your own vehicles have passed and suddenly somone fire a ATGM or RPG. For such situations Trophy is perfect.

In Ukraine war you have a frontline and you know in which direction your enemy is...and he figth with similar weapons ... modern Army not only have modern tanks... they also have modern reccon, drone defense, air defence, Arty detection radar, air support etc... in such a inviroment a ATGM crew is extremly vulnerable. The Russian Army lack of thermal view is the key for Ukraine succsess with ATGM ...against a Army like US, frensh or british that would NEVER work in the way it works against the Russian.
What we see in Ukraine is a russian Army facing the consequences of 2 decades roughless corruption through all ranks, undersupplyed, drunken of their own propaganda, stuck to mostly 1980´s technology or even older, untrained, unsupplyed, no motivation...massive alcohol problem and as the cherry on the iceing lead by completely incompetent Generals...

 

[Beny Karachun]

you should drop the belive that modern tank on the battlefield is undestroyable...
in such a a high intense, long time running war you get casualties, even the Merkava with Trophy would recive looses or a M1 or Leo2 or K2 fitted with Trophy.
Most Russian armor looses are not their T-90, T-80 or T-72B3... most are older tanks and IFV NOT fitted with thermal view and YES the russian MASSIVLY lack them..heck they still need help from Thales to build second generation thermal views for their tanks...
have you EVER seen anyone on a battlefield carry around transparent glasses to hide his ATGM crew behind it... please get real

As I said APS are a great help but not as much needed as belived.... specially in a real war were two large Armys figth each other and not terrorists stitting behind a bush, which 100 of your own vehicles have passed and suddenly somone fire a ATGM or RPG. For such situations Trophy is perfect.

In Ukraine war you have a frontline and you know in which direction your enemy is...and he figth with similar weapons ... modern Army not only have modern tanks... they also have modern reccon, drone defense, air defence, Arty detection radar, air support etc... in such a inviroment a ATGM crew is extremly vulnerable. The Russian Army lack of thermal view is the key for Ukraine succsess with ATGM ...against a Army like US, frensh or british that would NEVER work in the way it works against the Russian.
What we see in Ukraine is a russian Army facing the consequences of 2 decades roughless corruption through all ranks, undersupplyed, drunken of their own propaganda, stuck to mostly 1980´s technology or even older, untrained, unsupplyed, no motivation...massive alcohol problem and as the cherry on the iceing lead by completely incompetent Generals...

They are undestroyable when fighting against ATGMs if they're fitted with APS, and ATGMs are the number one threat of tanks in the modern battlefield.

Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com

251 T-72B3
191 T-72B3 Obr 2016
90 T-80U
64 T-80BVM
195 T-80BV
28 T-90A
8 T-90M
203 BMP3
372BTR82A
60 BMD4
And a bunch of unknown tanks.
All of those have thermals.


Having a Trophy would cut 95% of those tanks destroyed or more, it's absolutely crucial to have that system.

Ukrainians are doing more than carry glasses, their Stugna missile launchers are remotely controlled, they place them in the open and hide in a trench, no thermal sight could possibly spot them.
The glass statement is just an example of the shotcomings of thermal vision. A nation can equip its soldiers with clothes that would make spotting them a much harder task.

 

[Georg]

They are undestroyable when fighting against ATGMs if they're fitted with APS, and ATGMs are the number one threat of tanks in the modern battlefield.

Attack On Europe: Documenting Russian Equipment Losses During The Russian Invasion Of Ukraine

www.oryxspioenkop.com

251 T-72B3
191 T-72B3 Obr 2016
90 T-80U
64 T-80BVM
195 T-80BV
28 T-90A
8 T-90M
203 BMP3
372BTR82A
60 BMD4
And a bunch of unknown tanks.
All of those have thermals.


Having a Trophy would cut 95% of those tanks destroyed or more, it's absolutely crucial to have that system.

Ukrainians are doing more than carry glasses, their Stugna missile launchers are remotely controlled, they place them in the open and hide in a trench, no thermal sight could possibly spot them.
The glass statement is just an example of the shotcomings of thermal vision. A nation can equip its soldiers with clothes that would make spotting them a much harder task.

Total looses till September 2022

2200 tanks ... 872 are on your list 1373 NOT
4724 IFV and APC ... 635 are on our list 4089 NOT

see the trend? the MAJORITY BY FAR have no thermal view.... and MANY tank APC and IFV looses were lost to Artillery strikes.. not talking about that the Russian Infntry is extremly poor equipped and their complete Army is lead by idiots

 

[Beny Karachun]

Total looses till September 2022

2200 tanks ... 872 are on your list 1373 NOT
4724 IFV and APC ... 635 are on our list 4089 NOT

see the trend? the MAJORITY BY FAR have no thermal view.... and MANY tank APC and IFV looses were lost to Artillery strikes.. not talking about that the Russian Infntry is extremly poor equipped and their complete Army is lead by idiots

I've done my statistics class, so 1/3 of the destroyed tanks are equipped with thermal sights, even though they comprise less than 1/3rd of the tanks Russia used in the war, that means a tank equipped with thermal sights are more likely to get blown up than a tank without thermals, so just spitting numbers doesn't really prove your point. I would guess this is the case because newer tanks are being used more aggressively and older tanks more defensively.

I don't argue with you about Russians being poorly equipped and having poor capability overall, I am saying that having thermal vision is not a huge factor that contributes to a tanks survivability against infantry and ATGMs, which were the leading cause of tank casualties, by far.

This isn't Arma 3, as I said people don't glow as much as you think on thermal sights from the distances ATGMs are usually fired, they would be barely a few pixels on the screen, the gunner/commander need to zoom in to properly notice people, that means it would take a lot more time to scan an area for infantry than it would take to scan for tanks. If the person's clothes temperature match the temperature of his solid background it would be very hard to notice him (Air is invisible to thermal vision, so if he would stand in the open with nothing behind him, it would be easy to notice him, that's partly the reason why in military training you are instructed to never go on top of hills and always be behind something).