Can fundamentalism in Pakistan be traced back to madrassas?

[RescueRanger]

If you ask me.... Ban them all! But then again I'm a nobody!

 

[HRK]

Buddy, no matter how much you try, it's still self proclaimed 'Sunni terrorist groups' coming out of madrasas,

so the proclamation from terrorist group is the bases of your analysis about the terrorism in Pakistan.... in this case those groups also claim to be True Muslim then the 'rest of us' I believe you should also accept this claim by them without any hesitation ....

West invented the term 'Islamic Terrorism' Iranian take it further to level of 'Sunni terrorism' I am waiting for the days when someone will take it further down to the level of Wafaq ul Madaris Al Arbia , Wafaq ul Madaris Al-Shia or Ittehad Tanzeematul Madaris-e-Deeniya pass out Terrorist (Name of Different Islamic Education Board of different sects)

who are responsible for 99.999% of terror attacks in Pakistan,

Terrorist for 100% of the incidents,
but the question is are all those attacks happen only on Shia community .... ??

and with Shias being specifically targeted for their beliefs, while Sunnis who oppose them are not spared either.

Yes it happens, but who has suffer more because of terrorism Shia community or Sunni community ... ??

Now if you think Shias are not different than those terrorists, that's your choice.

this is point I have difference with you, you analysis the issue of Terrorism on the basis of sects and paint whole of the community with same colour.... I on the other hand emphasis to analysis the issue in its TOTALITY

You should be thankful Shias are not forming a powerful group to defend themselves and are asking the gov instead to defend them,

I should be thankful that the majority of Pakistani Shia population is not religious fanatics or I should be thankful that most of the Pakistani population is not religious extremist .... ???

Do you even know how well the Shia population is integrated with the society .... ?? form our security apparatus to political power structure ... from social circles to the cultural & intellectual circles ... ??

Overwhelming majority of Shia community in Pakistan is Liberal & Educated

but it seems Pakistani gov and army can not help them or prevent terrorists either, at least not in all cases.

Yes that's the reason terrorism has doped by 60% or 65% from last one year

Now if you are a 'Sunni', it's understandable if you can't easily accept the reality, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't have some dignity to accept it eventually.

My reality is not dependent on sectarian approach ....

And btw, yes it DOES matter that who is killing how many people, there is a difference between someone who kills 1 (and if he actually has killed 1) and someone is hell bent on killing thousands and has achieved it.

Terrorist have killed more Sunni or more Shia ... ???
you are hell bent to counts dead on the basis of sect ... so can you count ... ??

 

[Serpentine]

so the proclamation from terrorist group is the bases of your analysis about the terrorism in Pakistan.... in this case those groups also claim to be True Muslim then the 'rest of us' I believe you should also accept this claim by them without any hesitation ....

West invented the term 'Islamic Terrorism' Iranian take it further to level of 'Sunni terrorism' I am waiting for the days when someone will take it further down to the level Wafaq ul Madais Al Arbia , Wafaq ul Madaris Al-Shia or Ittehad Tanzeematul Madaris-e-Deeniya pass out Terrorist (Name of Different Islamic Education Board of different sects)

I bet you can read English. Read my post again, I said, Self proclaimed' Sunni terrorists. They say they are Sunnis, don't they?

Yes it happens, but who has suffer more because of terrorism Shia community or Sunni community ... ??

Terrorist for 100% of the incidents,
but the question is are all those attacks happen only on Shia community .... ??

Both suffer, and I clearly said it in my post. It doesn't matter if the victims are Sunni or Shia as long as they innocent. But the difference is, Shias are bing killed for being 'infidels', Sunnis are being killed for the sake of killing civilians, because terrorists prosper on killing civilians. At the end, outcome is the same, civilians die and I don't differentiate between them.

I should be thankful that the majority of Pakistani Shia population is not religious fanatics or I should be thankful that most of the Pakistani population is not religious extremist .... ???

Do you even know how well the Shia population is integrated with the society .... ?? form our security apparatus to political power structure ... from social circles to the cultural & intellectual circles ... ??

Overwhelming majority of Shia community in Pakistan is Liberal & Educated

It's a general thing for Shias, blowing up themselves, opening fire on civilians in streets, killing kids in schools, it's just not what Shias do, be it in Pakistan or anywhere else (maybe you may find lone wolf incidents hardly, but I'm talking about absolute majority). The same is true for majority of Pakistani Sunnis, who also loathe these terrorists.

Yes I know Pakistani Shias have very good relations with Sunnis. Pakistan was clean of this virus not more than 2 decades ago. And this is the whole point of my argument: As soon as Pakistan let the Saudi funded Madrasas in, the virus started to spread. But some try so hard to involve Iran or Shias as well, and shamelessly equating their role in the terrorism Pakistan is facing to today, most of them because they don't like 'Shia Iran', hence they are embarrassed to admit only Saudi role.

Yes that's the reason terrorism has doped by 60% or 65% from last one year

That's good, I hope it decreases even more. Ironically it all decreased after operation Zarb-e Azb started against TTP and other terrorists (wait a minute, are they Shias? nope).

Terrorist have killed more Sunni or more Shia ... ???
you are hell bent to counts dead on the basis of sect ... so can you count ... ??

You have misunderstood the whole point!! I have never said Shias have suffered more
I said shamelessly accusing Shias of terrorism, equating their role with TTP,LeJ and similar terrorists while their communities are being targeted regularly, is just pathetic and of course, sectarian.

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

This article is full of conspiracy theories spun by radical liberals and secularists alike.

 

[HRK]

I bet you can read English. Read my post again, I said, Self proclaimed' Sunni terrorists. They say they are Sunnis, don't they?

As said earlier if the claim by terrorist organizations is the basis of your understanding of the issue of TERRORISM in Pakistan then you should also accept their claim to be the 'ONLY TRUE MUSLIM' .... Do you accept this .... ?? if not why are you giving so much importance to their claims regarding SUNNI organization ... ??

Ask any Pakistani (be it Shia or Sunni) they will term them all as Terrorist Organizations but when our Iranian brother discuss the issue they term it as 'Sunni' Terrorist Organizations, this is the mentality which I am criticizing ... this is 'our' difference

But some try so hard to involve Iran or Shias as well, and shamelessly equating their role in the terrorism Pakistan is facing to today, most of them because they don't like 'Shia Iran', hence they are embarrassed to admit only Saudi role.

Should I ignore Tehrik-e-Nifaz-e-Fiqh-e-Jafaria & Sipah-e-Muhammad Pakistan and their alleged supporter .... ??

Why should I have to ignore the role of Iran or KSA in the spread of sectarian proxies in Pakistan ...??

You have misunderstood the whole point!! I have never said Shias have suffered more
I said shamelessly accusing Shias of terrorism, equating their role with TTP,LeJ and similar terrorists while their communities are being targeted regularly, is just pathetic and of course, sectarian.

Sir its you who have misunderstood the whole debate its not me who is accusing whole of the communities by terming Terrorist organizations as 'Shia or Sunni' for me a terrorist is a terrorist it does not matter he belongs to which community, sect, cast or creed; for your kind information Pakistan is not facing only the sectarian form of terrorism but many other form of terrorism as well, therefore I reject every narrative by terrorist organization or by their supporters.

Secondly as a common Pakistani I know that both Iran & KSA have their share in the spread of sectarian terrorism in Pakistan through their proxies & it does not matter who have more share then the other .... I also know that they did this for their political interests not in love of Shia or Sunni communities its our people who have paid the price with their blood & we are still paying the price .... I also accused Pakistani governments to let both KSA & Iran played their proxy game in Pakistan ....

(BTW consider this as my last post on this topic, I am not interested in this debate any more )

 

[Homo Sapiens]

In one word 'YES'

 

[Jf Thunder]

A State is a sovereign body per international law. It can do anything it want within its country.

according to Pakistani law, only Allah is sovereign, and no the state of Pakistan nor its law makers

If Jinnah was alive today he would have been declared kafir and probably assassinated.

nope, the first part may be true, but if the second part were true, you would find an island made of Mullah bodies in the Arabian sea

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

according to Pakistani law, only Allah is sovereign, and no the state of Pakistan nor its law makers

If what you claim is true, then the very system we have here challenges Allah sovereignty.

 

[Jf Thunder]

If what you claim is true, then the very system we have here challenges Allah sovereignty.

no it doesnt

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

no it doesnt

Before going through the theological evidences; i'm curious to know what do you understand by Allah sovereignty?

 

[asad71]

1.Before making such generalized comment one should try and find out what is a madrassa? How may types of madrassa are there? What is their curricular? What are their sources of finance? And a history/ genealogy? It is wrong to dub madrassas as terrorist manufacturing plants without getting into these details.

2. Of course madrassas teach science and maths. Some of the prominent Muslims of SA are madrassa alumni. Is there any alternative that can offer free board,lodging and education? And to rural youth from poor families. Not even the govt offers these totally.

3. I'll tell you what! Name some well known terrorists, and see how many are madrassa products and how many western educated. The data will show you that western education produces terrorists. So let's shut down all western education institutions!

 

[Jf Thunder]

Before going through the theological evidences; i'm curious to know what do you understand by Allah sovereignty?

that the supreme law making authority is Allah alone

 

[Azad-Kashmiri]

that the supreme law making authority is Allah alone

Good. As Muslims this is part our aqeedha (belief). What about if you choose governance (Sharia) other than what Allah has revealed?

But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. (Surah Al-Nisa v65)

Note: Please don't argue if you don't know. But you want to ask questions, you're most welcome. I say this because a person who knows can be held accountable in making an ignorant person say a thing that is kuffar.

 

[Jf Thunder]

Good. As Muslims this is part our aqeedha (belief). What about if you choose governance (Sharia) other than what Allah has revealed?

But no, by your Lord, they will not [truly] believe until they make you, [O Muhammad], judge concerning that over which they dispute among themselves and then find within themselves no discomfort from what you have judged and submit in [full, willing] submission. (Surah Al-Nisa v65)

Note: Please don't argue if you don't know. But you want to ask questions, you're most welcome. I say this because a person who knows can be held accountable in making an ignorant person say a thing that is kuffar.

there are hardly any laws (aside from a few) which are against Islam,

 

[LeGenD]

This article shall serve as an eye-opener: Is it really shocking that graduates from ‘prestigious institutes’ are becoming terrorists?

---

The following revelation shall also serve as an eye-opener:

After 9/11 terrorist attacks, terrorism scholars focused on the type of education as well as its level. Sageman's study of global Salafi Mujahidin measured education in two different ways; type of education and educational level achieved. According to Sageman, contrary to the common view that Pakistani and Saudi Arabia encourage a system of education that advocates hatred of the WEST, only 17 percent of the terrorists he analyzed had participated in religious schools. However, a majority had a secular education in elementary secondary schools. Sageman also rejects the argument that links participation in terrorism to the low level of education, which, in turn, makes terrorists vulnerable to brainwashing by religious extremists. According to his findings, almost 71 percent of the terrorists from the global Salafi Mujahidin had a college or graduate degree.

Source: Building Terrorism Resistant Communities: Together Against Terrorism (by S. Ekici, and A. Ekici)

---

Latest example: Who was Mohammad Youssef Abdulazeez? | Local News | Times Free Press

Mohammad Youssef Abdulazeez grew up in a middle-class Hixson neighborhood, was on the wrestling team at Red Bank High School and graduated from the University of Tennessee at Chattanooga in 2012 with a degree in engineering.

---

REALITY CHECK:

1. Madrassah are not the problem
2. Religious education is not the problem
3. Terrorism is a socio-economic and political phenomenon