Can China’s Top Guns Fly?

[EXPERIMENT]

If the real question is has PLAAF some real time training tracking and review systems like Top Gun or else, the answer is definitively yes.

These systems are developped and deployed, and are using widely in PLAAF and PLANAF training.

I would kindly invite moderators to lock this thread. No additional value..

Henri K.

In the first video I saw windows xp running on the rig next to rocket did microsoft develop for Chinese military?

 

[Fsjal]

Never say never...

Henri K.

When and were was this? Didn't know China sends planes to other nations

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

The article you posted cites no sources for its information. Western or even Chinese civilian sources are usually very incorrect when it comes to the PLAAF since they maintain a secretive grip on its information. China honestly doesn't need exercises with other air forces, although such a thing would be nice. They hold their own 100-warbird simulated combat war games.

We'd like to hear where you got the conclusion that the J-10 maintenance is poor. And BTW, the J-10A isn't China's "premium" fighter.

You think the PLAAF ranks aren't related with politics? Why do you think commanders get fired after crashes like the KJ-200?

Pilot training comes with both time and method. Saying that IAF pilots are "superior" is pretty narrow minded.

Really?Excercises with other airforces doesn't matter?Then why would the USAF the largest and most big budgeted one hold exrecises with 'inferior' airforces?Coz everyone will have a different way of doing things and the more ideas u have exposure too the better u get.In chinese case ,there is only one way they know.The one laid down by their superiors and enforced by the political comissars.Anyone who says that an hierarchy with interference from political comissars is going to be more efficient in human material than an independent one needs to have a look at history.

As for the j-10 it has been reported many times that the serviceability of the j-10 is poor and maintainence crew are having trouble keeping sortie rates anywhere near normal.
''The J-10 has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare and users are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful.''
From one such article.

Things are so bad that it even lost out to a 30 yr old plane the mig-29 in the contest to equip the myanmar air force despite offering low prices,along with its economic leverage on myanmar.Mostly due to its maintainence nightmare reputation.

And then ofcourse there is the story told in the chinese press itself and i need not elaborate much as it was in the chinese forum itself......how it was 'crushed' by the j-11 in exercises.The j-11..... which is a poor man's su-30 mki.And one 'does' wonder why despite several rumours the pakistani air force hasn't just taken to the great fighter..prefering poor old f-16s as its high end weaponry still.

As to your other 'premium' fighters.The su-30mkk,su-27 and j-11 they are when all is said and done poor man's su-30mkis.
And on to ur great 'force multiplier's,The keys to a modern air force.

Lets see shall we....for a great air force of 2500 aircraft.
Modern heavy transport aircraft-
ummm.....20 ill-76s and 8 y-9 .That's it.
All u got else are ultra obsolete reverse engeneered an-24s and more original an-26s.[around a 110 of all 3 types]By the way the 'load' of the 'backbone' of the PLAAF's transport fleet is quite fearsome.5500 kgs.Plus 60 odd again ultra old an-12s.

Even the poor IAF with 750 aircraft has 17 ill-76s.Plus the new c-17 globemasters now arriving[2 arrived,8 coming].Plus 6 c-130 super hercules[6 more arriving].BTW the cargo capacity of the small c-130 super herc is 33000 kgs.And the globemaster is 80000 kgs and it can land on rough areas without airfields.Apart from this we also have newly upgraded 110 an-32 antonovs for light transport.

Now what it means is the THE mighty PLAAF's ability to logistically sustain a ground offensive in the NE is minimal.All u got is ur ground infrastrucrure and if IAF knocks out the railway lines,ur boys are going to sit and starve.Same case in any cross the sea invasion attempts at taiwan and the islands.The air mobility for ur elephant of an air force is that of an infant.Lets not even 'compare urselves with the USAAF with 100 c-5 galaxy's,220 c-17 globemasters,420 c-130 hercules.The USAF can supply the entire coalition force in afganisthan from the air alone indefinitely and has gone on air saying so.

Lets look at another old and rusty old bear .eh.The russian AF in long decline still has...210 ill-76s,20 an-22[45k kgs],14 an-24[150000 kgs] plus 160 older light antonov transports.
Compare that to ur superdupah superpower mighty dragon air force and its liliiput airlift ability of 20 ill-76s and 7 y-9s,60 an-12s[do these rusted junks even fly?].

Now lets get to the second part of force multipliers of a modern air force.....strategic air to air refueller tankers shall we?

Here's the hilarious part..the superpowaaa dragon has NO dedicated refueller aircraft.10 again ultra old h-6[old tu-16]bombers have been used as a stopgap in this role.Only now they might order some ill-78s.
Even the IAF has 7 dedicated ill-78 mki tankers.
Lets not even get to the USAF[60 kc-10a,420 kc-135s]
This means ur combat aircraft are short legged and can only operate in zones close to their air bases while others can multiply their actual numbers on the frontline by deploying fighters from far away bases[away from missile range].

And as for the all important AWACS,Ur kj-2000 poor man's awacs.A result of what u have when usa sanctioned the PHALCON awacs that china so desperately wanted from israel but couldn't get.The same Phalcon that we have.
And only 5 real KJ-2000 awacs at that.Even russia has 30.India has 3 phalcon with 2 more coming.Lets not go to usa.

As seen from above PLAAF is clearly a quantity over quality force,that has limited understanding and expereince of modern aerial warfare and hence the huge numbers of combat aircraft with so little vital support aircraft.Still believes in brute force above quality,along with its political comissars hindering battle management and ability and lower flying hrs....no matter how they huff and puff is far from being the equal of the PLA and is yet mostly a paper tiger.

 

[kbd-raaf]

<snip>

Very good post, should be referred to in the future by other posters here.

 

[jhungary]

Let make this interesting
@gambit

The problem of PLAAF is not in their training hour, but their training method.
You can have 400 hours training but without looking at outside and see how you and the people fare, you are just kidding yourselves...

 

[Beast]

Let make this interesting
@gambit

The problem of PLAAF is not in their training hour, but their training method.
You can have 400 hours training but without looking at outside and see how you and the people fare, you are just kidding yourselves...

PLAAF constantly get updated of western style training and their tactic from PAF while western and American know nothing how PLAAF doctrine and tatics. The USAF will have a nasty surprise if PLAAF and USAF meets in a war...

Even when going overseas exercise like to Pakistan and Turkey. We send one of our lousy aircraft like Su-27SK to exercise with them so that none of our indignenous component will be leak out to the western countries. Top plane like J-10A, J-11B,J-8F or JH-7A will never landed in foreign airspace.

Even during the Shanghai military cooperation exercise. J-10 and JH-7A never landed in foreign airbase although they did take part in the exercise with foreign counterpart.

 

[jhungary]

PLAAF constantly get updated of western style training and their tactic from PAF while western and American know nothing how PLAAF doctrine and tatics. The USAF will have a nasty surprise if PLAAF and USAF meets in a war...
Even when going overseas exercise like to Pakistan and Turkey. We send one of our lousy aircraft like Su-27SK to exercise with them so that none of our indignenous component will be leak out to the western countries. Top plane like J-10A, J-11B,J-8F or JH-7A will never landed in foreign airspace.

Even during the Shanghai military cooperation exercise. J-10 and JH-7A never landed in foreign airbase although they did take part in the exercise with foreign counterpart.

Is the nasty surprise is that Chinese pilot shoot all of their aircraft down??

And the world is bigger than Pakistan and Turkey you know.

 

[Akasa]

Really?Excercises with other airforces doesn't matter?Then why would the USAF the largest and most big budgeted one hold exrecises with 'inferior' airforces?Coz everyone will have a different way of doing things and the more ideas u have exposure too the better u get.In chinese case ,there is only one way they know.The one laid down by their superiors and enforced by the political comissars.Anyone who says that an hierarchy with interference from political comissars is going to be more efficient in human material than an independent one needs to have a look at history.

As for the j-10 it has been reported many times that the serviceability of the j-10 is poor and maintainence crew are having trouble keeping sortie rates anywhere near normal.
''The J-10 has a reputation as a maintenance nightmare and users are having a hard time keeping the aircraft operational in reasonable numbers. But the J-10 is the first modern jet fighter designed and built in China. The aircraft is an attempt to create a modern fighter-bomber that could compete with foreign designs. The experiment was not completely successful.''
From one such article.

Things are so bad that it even lost out to a 30 yr old plane the mig-29 in the contest to equip the myanmar air force despite offering low prices,along with its economic leverage on myanmar.Mostly due to its maintainence nightmare reputation.

And then ofcourse there is the story told in the chinese press itself and i need not elaborate much as it was in the chinese forum itself......how it was 'crushed' by the j-11 in exercises.The j-11..... which is a poor man's su-30 mki.And one 'does' wonder why despite several rumours the pakistani air force hasn't just taken to the great fighter..prefering poor old f-16s as its high end weaponry still.

As to your other 'premium' fighters.The su-30mkk,su-27 and j-11 they are when all is said and done poor man's su-30mkis.
And on to ur great 'force multiplier's,The keys to a modern air force.

Lets see shall we....for a great air force of 2500 aircraft.
Modern heavy transport aircraft-
ummm.....20 ill-76s and 8 y-9 .That's it.
All u got else are ultra obsolete reverse engeneered an-24s and more original an-26s.[around a 110 of all 3 types]By the way the 'load' of the 'backbone' of the PLAAF's transport fleet is quite fearsome.5500 kgs.Plus 60 odd again ultra old an-12s.

Even the poor IAF with 750 aircraft has 17 ill-76s.Plus the new c-17 globemasters now arriving[2 arrived,8 coming].Plus 6 c-130 super hercules[6 more arriving].BTW the cargo capacity of the small c-130 super herc is 33000 kgs.And the globemaster is 80000 kgs and it can land on rough areas without airfields.Apart from this we also have newly upgraded 110 an-32 antonovs for light transport.

Now what it means is the THE mighty PLAAF's ability to logistically sustain a ground offensive in the NE is minimal.All u got is ur ground infrastrucrure and if IAF knocks out the railway lines,ur boys are going to sit and starve.Same case in any cross the sea invasion attempts at taiwan and the islands.The air mobility for ur elephant of an air force is that of an infant.Lets not even 'compare urselves with the USAAF with 100 c-5 galaxy's,220 c-17 globemasters,420 c-130 hercules.The USAF can supply the entire coalition force in afganisthan from the air alone indefinitely and has gone on air saying so.

Lets look at another old and rusty old bear .eh.The russian AF in long decline still has...210 ill-76s,20 an-22[45k kgs],14 an-24[150000 kgs] plus 160 older light antonov transports.
Compare that to ur superdupah superpower mighty dragon air force and its liliiput airlift ability of 20 ill-76s and 7 y-9s,60 an-12s[do these rusted junks even fly?].

Now lets get to the second part of force multipliers of a modern air force.....strategic air to air refueller tankers shall we?

Here's the hilarious part..the superpowaaa dragon has NO dedicated refueller aircraft.10 again ultra old h-6[old tu-16]bombers have been used as a stopgap in this role.Only now they might order some ill-78s.
Even the IAF has 7 dedicated ill-78 mki tankers.
Lets not even get to the USAF[60 kc-10a,420 kc-135s]
This means ur combat aircraft are short legged and can only operate in zones close to their air bases while others can multiply their actual numbers on the frontline by deploying fighters from far away bases[away from missile range].

And as for the all important AWACS,Ur kj-2000 poor man's awacs.A result of what u have when usa sanctioned the PHALCON awacs that china so desperately wanted from israel but couldn't get.The same Phalcon that we have.
And only 5 real KJ-2000 awacs at that.Even russia has 30.India has 3 phalcon with 2 more coming.Lets not go to usa.

As seen from above PLAAF is clearly a quantity over quality force,that has limited understanding and expereince of modern aerial warfare and hence the huge numbers of combat aircraft with so little vital support aircraft.Still believes in brute force above quality,along with its political comissars hindering battle management and ability and lower flying hrs....no matter how they huff and puff is far from being the equal of the PLA and is yet mostly a paper tiger.

Most of the training of the Air Force is done in the country. How many times do you get a chance to get training done with other air forces? Once or twice per year? That is barely enough to be considered as "drills"; like I said before, and as demonstrated before, the exchanges between the Air Forces are a sign of friendship and a way to compare tactics, not to "practice", so to speak. China can also "compare tactics" and update its doctrine simply by studying and examining. They have done some serious dissecting of American doctrine and tactics used in the Gulf War, which saw a complete renewal of PLAAF doctrine and reorganization of PLAAF structure and command.

The J-10 serviceability is yet unknown to most of us, so please stop with the "articles" that are probably written by the same people who thought the J-11B was crashing. The J-10's crash rate is not higher than other aircraft and so far there has been no grounding or investigations into any aspect of it.

The J-10 defeated the J-11, Su-27SK, Su-30MKK, and J-11B in virtually every major combat simulation. Some of the scores include 7:1, 13:1, 4:1, etc. You need to do more research.

And no, China never offered the J-10 to Myanmar.

J-11, Su-27, Su-30MKK? The Su-27 is being retired. Su-30MKK is being moved to second line service. I see that you have left out the J-11B, which has a AESA, RAM, composites, IRST, MAWS, 132 kN engine, which will provide a much stealthier, versatile, and electronically-capable platform than the Su-30MKI. You also have left out the J-10B, which already has significantly upgraded capabilities compared to the J-10A, about to enter service. Let's not forget about the J-15 and J-16, all of which feature similar upgrades seen on the J-11B, which will enter production in 2014. China has more Flanker fighters than Russia and 120 of them are the J-11B while even more locally-developed 4.5 generation Flankers are entering service.

Now, onto transports. I see that you have conveniently left out the fact that China has some 100+ Y-8 along with the Y-9, IL-76, and is awaiting the Y-20 currently in testing. But that's alright, because India's 10 C-17s will obviously be "enough", right? It must be fun to reduce your enemy's numbers on paper, isn't it.

No dedicated refueling aircraft? Please go to YouTube and search up "J-8 refuel" or "J-10 refuel".

The Y-20 is also being converted to refueling aircraft.

And once again, you have left out the PLAAF's KJ-200, Y-8 AWACS, Y-8T, Y-8Q, Y-8J, Y-8EW, etc, which make up the bulk of the PLAAF's EW fleet. Oh, by the way, the KJ-2000 features a L-band AESA radar that tracks simultaneously in all directions, which provides far superior tracking, detection, and scanning capability compared to all Russian, Indian, and American EW aircraft.

Funny how you stress "quality over quantity" while your post clearly implies that what Russia and United States has over China is ... well, you named it: quantity.

Be careful what you call a "paper tiger" because if that's the standard then I'm afraid IAF and Russia's aging force might as well be paper mice.

 

[gambit]

The article you posted cites no sources for its information. Western or even Chinese civilian sources are usually very incorrect when it comes to the PLAAF since they maintain a secretive grip on its information. China honestly doesn't need exercises with other air forces, although such a thing would be nice. They hold their own 100-warbird simulated combat war games.

We'd like to hear where you got the conclusion that the J-10 maintenance is poor. And BTW, the J-10A isn't China's "premium" fighter.

You think the PLAAF ranks aren't related with politics? Why do you think commanders get fired after crashes like the KJ-200?

Pilot training comes with both time and method. Saying that IAF pilots are "superior" is pretty narrow minded.

I really really really do hope that the entire PLA establishment thinks like you do. It would make the defeat of the PLAAF that much more delicious.

There are so much the hosting air force could learn ABOUT its guests, things that are EQUALLY important as hardware.

For example...

How much does the ground crew work to keep the deployed aircrafts flying ? How often do they work hard ? Yes, if six are deployed to an exercise and six do meet the daily flying schedule, but if the ground crews have to bust their guts late into the night every night, calling home for technical assistance and more spare parts and Heavens forbid, even ask the host for technical and manpower help, do you have any idea on what the hosting air force could very accurately infer about this potential adversary ?

A major part of the reason why the F-16 is so popular among air forces seeking affordable defense is because the -16 was designed to be field maintainable as much as possible and by 'field' I mean on the flightline, not hangar-ed. An engine change can be done in rain and/or snow and by crews in chem gear if necessary. Same for the F-15, A-10, and even the old B-52. From observing the ground crews, you learn about their educkashun and training level, command structures, and morale.

You really think American airmen are just a bunch of beer swilling rednecks when we got a bunch of foreigners flying adversary fighters on base? And this is not counting what the hosting pilots could learn ABOUT their opponents in the air.

Please continue to underestimate US. If the Chinese members here are representative of the mentality common in the PLA, the PLAAF is already PLOOF-ed.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Wonder what happened to hong wu and psyops now that they have been enlightened to the 'real' state of the paper dragon plaaf.

 

[jhungary]

I really really really do hope that the entire PLA establishment thinks like you do. It would make the defeat of the PLAAF that much more delicious.

There are so much the hosting air force could learn ABOUT its guests, things that are EQUALLY important as hardware.

For example...

How much does the ground crew work to keep the deployed aircrafts flying ? How often do they work hard ? Yes, if six are deployed to an exercise and six do meet the daily flying schedule, but if the ground crews have to bust their guts late into the night every night, calling home for technical assistance and more spare parts and Heavens forbid, even ask the host for technical and manpower help, do you have any idea on what the hosting air force could very accurately infer about this potential adversary ?

A major part of the reason why the F-16 is so popular among air forces seeking affordable defense is because the -16 was designed to be field maintainable as much as possible and by 'field' I mean on the flightline, not hangar-ed. An engine change can be done in rain and/or snow and by crews in chem gear if necessary. Same for the F-15, A-10, and even the old B-52. From observing the ground crews, you learn about their educkashun and training level, command structures, and morale.

You really think American airmen are just a bunch of beer swilling rednecks when we got a bunch of foreigners flying adversary fighters on base? And this is not counting what the hosting pilots could learn ABOUT their opponents in the air.

Please continue to underestimate US. If the Chinese members here are representative of the mentality common in the PLA, the PLAAF is already PLOOF-ed.

Ground crew quality alone win the 6 days war for Israel. The faster they can turn around a fighter/bomber, the more sortie you can get out of those aircraft.

It's totally not a number game as many people, especially the Chinese suggested. Nor it matter on how well your gear are. But the people behind operate it, and people who define your mission statement.

You can perfect yourselves sending a aircraft turn around in 8 hours, but if you don't know the other is doing it for 6, then you are doomed.

 

[gambit]

Let make this interesting
@gambit

The problem of PLAAF is not in their training hour, but their training method.
You can have 400 hours training but without looking at outside and see how you and the people fare, you are just kidding yourselves...

This is like saying an infantry from the desert can know exactly how to fight in mountainous terrain without ever seeing a mountain.

 

[jhungary]

This is like saying an infantry from the desert can know exactly how to fight in mountainous terrain without ever seeing a mountain.

lol......

very good example.

As a trained Cavalryman myself, I always need to perfect the skill in an infantry mindset, otherwise I will get rolled over by infantry, which ironically is more of a threat than armored.

Of course there are some thing you need to do to perfect your cavalry skill, but being a good soldier/fighter/commander mean you need to know how the enemy react on you, not just simply you know what you do

 

[gambit]

Ground crew quality alone win the 6 days war for Israel. The faster they can turn around a fighter/bomber, the more sortie you can get out of those aircraft.

It's totally not a number game as many people, especially the Chinese suggested. Nor it matter on how well your gear are. But the people behind operate it, and people who define your mission statement.

You can perfect yourselves sending a aircraft turn around in 8 hours, but if you don't know the other is doing it for 6, then you are doomed.

Here is an example of how we NORMALLY turn a jet...

F-22s use refueling 'pit stop'

"Hot pits" are crucial in wartime as it gets the fighters gassed up quickly while both engines are still running, and back into the fight.

"It's actually pretty dangerous," said Staff Sgt. James Palumbo, a hot pit supervisor. "But we've had special training to do this, and as the supervisor out here my job is to correct or stop any unsafe acts and make sure everyone is doing things right."

In just a few hours, the F-22 Raptor crew turned around eight aircraft, getting each F-22 back to the sky in around 45 minutes.

"A normal turn time on an aircraft is three hours," Sergeant Palumbo said. "But with hot-pitting we can get them going again in about 45 minutes. They basically pull in, get gas, and take off."

Hot pitting is routine. Even in peacetime, we train as if the jet is required to take off for war in a few hours. Not every air force does this. Does China?

 

[Beast]

Is the nasty surprise is that Chinese pilot shoot all of their aircraft down??

And the world is bigger than Pakistan and Turkey you know.

When did Chinese pilot shoot down their aircraft? Arrogant breed failure... The American always think they will be top and never defeated will be the catalyst for your failure.

PAF constantly participate in red flag. Their info for us will help us understand most of the NATO aerial warfare and American tatics.

Precisely why PLAAF acquire AEW, AWACS, BVRAAM/PL-12 missiles and acquire C4IS plus datalink to modernise ourselves. All this are modern on western/NATO experience but with a touch of Chinese, modify on our needs. Which you NATO and American known nothing of...

This is like saying an infantry from the desert can know exactly how to fight in mountainous terrain without ever seeing a mountain.

I didn't know Vietnamese Army is so advance in their thinking, Isn't vietnamese army exactly doing that?