Can China’s Top Guns Fly?

[Beast]

Ok first of all i don't know what ur talking about,i never said anything about anyone crashing.He started the whole talk abouit crashing.I said about the reports of j-10 as a maintainence nightmare.China doesn't release data on its crashes.
A

Good day.

INstead of talking rot, can you show me any official link of talking J-10 as maintenance nightmare? If you think China doesn't reveal and data as the source? Then I think you have a thinking problem.

nd ws-10 is a failure.Other ur govt wouldn't be investing billions to build a proper jet engine.China has admitted it can't build a proper engine yet.ws-10 engines need servicing after 30 hrs compared to 400 for russian engines.This is also why china buys more al-31f turbofans from russia,instead of using ws-10 .Infact even the j-10 uses it coz the ws-10 failed.

I can perfectly understand your reason for badmouth WS-10. The fact WS-10 is working and serving PLAAF is a massive blow to India failure to make a proper modern turbofan like kaveri engine. Posting nonsense without fact and citing amatuer forum as source is the perfect solution to you.

PLA's aero-engine development shows good momentum - People's Daily Online

(People's Daily Online)
08:41, April 08, 2013
"The Y-20 transport aircraft of the Air Force of the Chinese People's Liberation Army (PLA) will eventually be mounted with China's independently-developed engines," Chen Maozhang, expert of Chinese aero engines and academician of the Chinese Academy of Engineering, said in a recent interview.

"The research and manufacture project is currently going very well," Chen added. Chinese engineers and technicians are expected to develop and manufacture a new generation of "Taihang" engines.

In Chen Maozhang's viewpoint, "Taihang" bears landmark significance because it not only marks the transformation of Chinese aero-engine research and development from the turbojet engine to the turbofan engine, but also realizes the progress of Chinese aero-engine from medium thrust to high thrust. With the "Taihang" engines, the engine research and manufacture in related fields will move forward on this basis.

"Taihang" engines are the power units of Chinese military aircraft. The improved "Taihang" engines will be used to drive other major combat equipment of the Navy and the Air Force of the PLA. In the future, the improved thrust-augmented model with high by-pass ratio will be fitted to bombers while the non-thrust model with high by-pass ratio will be used for massive transport aircraft like Y-20 and others.

The gas turbines for ships derived from "Taihang" engines will be used as the main drive for large surface ships like destroyers. According to Zhang Enhe, chief designer of the "Taihang" engines, the "Taihang" has provided supports for China to take a path of independent development of aero engines and to realize the 3rd-generation power unit for China's fighter aircraft. It speeds up the leap forward of PLA's aviation weaponry and armament.

The "Taihang" engine has a thrust-weight ratio of 8, which means it can generate the thrust power 8 times of its own weight, which has reached the world's advanced level. Although the "Taihang" engine still has a large room for improvement when comparing with the U.S. F-119 engine with a thrust-weight ratio of 10, nevertheless, as Chen Maozhang put it, "the research and development of engine is a process of constant improvement. It usually requires more than a decade or even 2-plus decades to complete the process from the finalized design to maturity. The 'Taihang' is moving steadily ahead".

Overseas Edition of People's Daily

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...k-innovation-obstructing-d-3.html#post4175018

WS-10 not install on J-10 is failure then WS-10 install on J-11B is what? Success according to your theory?

Maybe you forget about this picture?

Does that make you a failure? Isn't that a J-10 with WS-10 flying?

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

On the engine issue.
Why Russia Has China By The Engines
The failure of the chinese engines.Its not enough to build and install a engine on a plane,it has to be maintainable.This is the main problem.New chinese engines lasted 30 hrs before servicing compared to 400 for russian engines.These problems were only solved recently and still china continues to buy al-31s and invest 16 billion dollars in new engine programme.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...-billion-domestic-jet-engine-plan-xinhua.html
Why ur gov't is spending 16 ******* billion dollars on the issue.Coz it knows its current stuff is crap.

China Gives J-10s Away

Actually the PAF is clever and refused j-10 in current state,coz it knows its a maintainence nightmare and relies on f-16s.Despite talks of j-10 drama going on for last 10 yrs.

Now back to my original questions on political commissars,j-11 being superior than mki,ur dreaded turboprop 50s era AWACS and pathetic transport and tanker fleet.

 

[Beast]

On the engine issue.
Why Russia Has China By The Engines
The failure of the chinese engines.Its not enough to build and install a engine on a plane,it has to be maintainable.This is the main problem.New chinese engines lasted 30 hrs before servicing compared to 400 for russian engines.These problems were only solved recently and still china continues to buy al-31s and invest 16 billion dollars in new engine programme.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/chines...-billion-domestic-jet-engine-plan-xinhua.html
Why ur gov't is spending 16 ******* billion dollars on the issue.Coz it knows its current stuff is crap.

China Gives J-10s Away

Actually the PAF is clever and refused j-10 in current state,coz it knows its a maintainence nightmare and relies on f-16s.Despite talks of j-10 drama going on for last 10 yrs.

Now back to my original questions on political commissars,j-11 being superior than mki,ur dreaded turboprop 50s era AWACS and pathetic transport and tanker fleet.

You are quoting strategypage as source? Don't you know those article are written by some amateur and idiots? Strategypage also claim India military indigenous industries as a whole is a failure. Why didn't I see you post that?
What I post is all official source link while you give me crap source and amatuer link to back your words? You better go somewhere and play.


As for the 16 billions spend means WS-10 is crap , I suggest you read that article properly before linking nonsense. Those 16 billions are to make comeptitive civilian engine like SFA-J and CJ-1000 commerical engines to compete with PW, GE and roll royce commericial engines.

As for PAF refuse J-10 is perfect sense. Why would PAF go for another single engine of J-10 since they are replacing bulk with JF-17 with similiar spec. Yes, J-10 is more advance but it still can't deep strike and have longer legged. It doesn't fit their doctrine.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

You will ofcourse read any link that paints chinese in anything resembling bad light as amateurs,put all the smilies u want won't change the facts.Just about every military forum knows china has huge problems with its engines.Tell me just one thing..if all problems are solved why do u keep buying al-31s?Makes no sense.Why these huge spendings on new engine development.
And a short legged aircarft doesn't go contradictary to PAF doctrine at all,actually it perfectly fits it.They don't have strategic depth so a capable single engined short legged aircraft is perfect for them.Its not doctrine,but the aircraft..sry if it hurts that 40 yr old f-16 design is prefered over this.

And btw u STILL haven't answered those queries about the effect of political commissars,how the j-11 is vastly superior to mki,On ur dreaded turboprop 50s era AWACS and pathetic transport and tanker fleet.With no exercises,minimal exposure,political interference in operations,lower flying hours and limited understanding of modern aviation doctrine plus infantile combat history the flying paper dragon still has a long way to go unlike the chinese land forces.

 

[Beast]

You will ofcourse read any link that paints chinese in anything resembling bad light as amateurs,put all the smilies u want won't change the facts.Just about every military forum knows china has huge problems with its engines.Tell me just one thing..if all problems are solved why do u keep buying al-31s?Makes no sense.Why these huge spendings on new engine development.
And a short legged aircarft doesn't go contradictary to PAF doctrine at all,actually it perfectly fits it.They don't have strategic depth so a capable single engined short legged aircraft is perfect for them.Its not doctrine,but the aircraft..sry if it hurts that 40 yr old f-16 design is prefered over this.

And btw u STILL haven't answered those queries about the effect of political commissars,how the j-11 is vastly superior to mki,On ur dreaded turboprop 50s era AWACS and pathetic transport and tanker fleet.With no exercises,minimal exposure,political interference in operations,lower flying hours and limited understanding of modern aviation doctrine plus infantile combat history the flying paper dragon still has a long way to go unlike the chinese land forces.

In fact, the one who wants to believe whatever thing he wants to hear is you... Quoting an amateur source out of desperation.
As for the engine buys, even US too buy other countries military stuff , does that mean its an failure of its military industries?

You continue avoid the very fact, our domestic fleet of J-11B is powered by WS-10A ,so as the new plane like J-16, J-15 and J-15S. If more than 200 over engine are used on and can be still considered as failure. You must have a very poor understanding of my explanation.

The very fact, the chief designer come out to back his product is a testimonial of his design. You can lie and twist words but the photo speaks a thousands words.

There are already comfirmed 10 regiment of J-11B, first regiment used AL-31F, sub sequence all other regiments used WS-10A engines. I havent included J-15 pt , J-15S and J-16 plus J-10B pt using WS-10. That will be more than 200 over engines. Trying to claim WS-10A is just plain failure is just sourgrapes from our Indian friends. Just becos of your failure doesn't mean China will follow suit.

India military industries need to reorganise and lower their spec first. Get your self more experience before you are thinking of making a kaveri engine with thrust weight ratio of 9:1.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Try to console urselves as much as u want on engines,it seems on that we can convince neither of us.U will always claim sources as bad.And i'll claim otherwise.
But i see u still are conviniently avoiding the other questions,ur buddy sinosoldier made a lot of bold claims on how the j-11 was superior to the su-30mki,how su-30mkk was relegated to second line units.How Great ur awacs are.Once i refuted those claims,he ran away with his tail between his legs.How great is your turboprop 50s era AWACS,or the pathetic state of ur tanker and transport fleet.
How about the political commisssars of the mighty dragon.
Of course u don't need exrecises,though your force structure clearly proves the PLAAF doctrine is antiquated and its ability to sustain ground operations minimal.
Stop hiding and stop avoiding the same queries i have putting for last 3 pages.

 

[Genesis]

Try to console urselves as much as u want on engines,it seems on that we can convince neither of us.U will always claim sources as bad.And i'll claim otherwise.
But i see u still are conviniently avoiding the other questions,ur buddy sinosoldier made a lot of bold claims on how the j-11 was superior to the su-30mki,how su-30mkk was relegated to second line units.How Great ur awacs are.Once i refuted those claims,he ran away with his tail between his legs.How great is your turboprop 50s era AWACS,or the pathetic state of ur tanker and transport fleet.
How about the political commisssars of the mighty dragon.
Of course u don't need exrecises,though your force structure clearly proves the PLAAF doctrine is antiquated and its ability to sustain ground operations minimal.
Stop hiding and stop avoiding the same queries i have putting for last 3 pages.

Whether Chinese engines works or not cannot be confirmed, no way China releases that information, or any information.

There are still facts unknown about Chinese made guns, much less engines.

You sources are unreliable, as no way they can know anything, and any action by the government is in no way an indicator as it could be a political buy as much as a practical buy.

However this is not to say the engines works fine because the sources on that is also not great. So let's just say some of Chinese aircraft use it, and while they are in the sky, it's power is pretty comparable to western made ones.

The political commissars are a position of old, and today their functions are different, they go to military school and has military knowledge. The fact that you pointing these guys out makes no sense as a stubborn and stupid person can be anybody, don't have to be the commissars.

Our tanker fleet isn't that big, but with current high positions held by navy and air force command, you can be sure those will be addressed.

Chinese military budget is 2nd in the world and it is increasing at a blistering pace. With this much money china can afford lots of things. You don't have to worry.

 

[Beast]

Try to console urselves as much as u want on engines,it seems on that we can convince neither of us.U will always claim sources as bad.And i'll claim otherwise.
But i see u still are conviniently avoiding the other questions,ur buddy sinosoldier made a lot of bold claims on how the j-11 was superior to the su-30mki,how su-30mkk was relegated to second line units.How Great ur awacs are.Once i refuted those claims,he ran away with his tail between his legs.How great is your turboprop 50s era AWACS,or the pathetic state of ur tanker and transport fleet.
How about the political commisssars of the mighty dragon.
Of course u don't need exrecises,though your force structure clearly proves the PLAAF doctrine is antiquated and its ability to sustain ground operations minimal.
Stop hiding and stop avoiding the same queries i have putting for last 3 pages.

Look at your nonsense claim... 50 eras AWACS? I didn't know in the 50 there is AWACS??, It seems you are not coming here for meaningful debate.

Clearly KJ-200 is using the same AESA concept as Erisson Erieye AWACS but our is bigger and more endurance.

May I know how superior IAF transport fleet compare to PLAAF if you think PLAAF is pathetic?

Y-9 cockpit

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Yes you must be proud of ur great turbopropeller driven AWACS,WOn't last a day in modern aerial warfare.Only thing its good at is sitting pretty and monitoring its own airspace.In a chinese invasion of n-e india,or taiwan or diayu islands where u have to monitor enemy airspace and thus get close,These planes have zero survivability.Sitting ducks.
Thats why all modern airforces with feasible external enemies have turbojet platforms.
The y-8 is a upgraded an-12 ,a useless 50's era platform in today's warfare.
usa/nato uses boeing 707/847,russia ,india uses ill-76.India's new indigeneous one is based on the EMB-145 jetliner.And here u are bragging abt ur propeller driven awacs.Sweden uses it coz it has no external enemies and saves money.Besides its feasible as a purely defensive platform to monitor own airspace from deep inside.Anywhere near enemy borders.This is a big sitting duck for offensive operations.

As for transport fleet all u got are 20 ill-76MDS.India has 17 IL-76MDs herself.

The only other transport with moderate strategic transport ability is the new y-9.U have 7 atm.Its cargo load is still only 25000 kg.
India already has 6 c-130 super herc with 33000 kg plus 6 more on order arriving.

U have nothing comparable to our new c-17 globemasters with 80000 kg cargo load and unique ability to land on rough areas without proper airstrips.This means we can supply NE border far better than u who have nothing comparable.

U also have around 60 of the old y-8 transports [reverse engineered ultra old 50s era an-12] and around a 100 an-24 and an-26 reverse engineered types with y-series designations.The cargo laod of the an-24/26s is a measly 5500 kgs.LOl.

India just upgraded 110 of its an-32 medium transports from ukraine.
So for a air force of 2500 aircarft ur transport ability is pathetic.Especially when u consider the USAAF has 100 c-5 galaxy heavy strategic transports,220 c-17 globemasters and 430 c-130 super herc.The usa can almost airlift its entire army.
Even the declining Russian airforce has over 250 strategic heavy transports and 160 mediuma nd light tactical transports[includes 210 il-76s and 40 super heavy strategic transports]
What it means is that ur ground infrastructure is ur only card,if IAF knocks that out[the rail network...which isn't too difficult with tactical ballistic missiles,brahmos or precision guided munitions from the air] ur soldiers are done for as PLAAF's ability to resupply and reinforce from the air is mminimal.I am not even thinking what will happen if u go up against the USAAF in a cross SCS adventure.

Whether Chinese engines works or not cannot be confirmed, no way China releases that information, or any information.

There are still facts unknown about Chinese made guns, much less engines.

You sources are unreliable, as no way they can know anything, and any action by the government is in no way an indicator as it could be a political buy as much as a practical buy.

However this is not to say the engines works fine because the sources on that is also not great. So let's just say some of Chinese aircraft use it, and while they are in the sky, it's power is pretty comparable to western made ones.

The political commissars are a position of old, and today their functions are different, they go to military school and has military knowledge. The fact that you pointing these guys out makes no sense as a stubborn and stupid person can be anybody, don't have to be the commissars.

Our tanker fleet isn't that big, but with current high positions held by navy and air force command, you can be sure those will be addressed.

Chinese military budget is 2nd in the world and it is increasing at a blistering pace. With this much money china can afford lots of things. You don't have to worry.

Political commissars job is to maintain the CCP's hold on the military,and for this they heavily interfere on military matters.It is historically proven that unity of command is a crucial principle of war and an independent organization will always operate in a superior fashion than one with political hacks.

 

[Genesis]

@AUSTERLITZ


I have no way of confirming this but I think the PLAAF is in transition, which means it is probably at it's weakest at this moment. The Indian air force maybe equal or a tad superior at the moment.

This is the price of domestic production, at some point, the foreign sales needs to stop and the domestic product not yet matches it's counter part or ready to be inducted or even just takes time to produce in numbers.

Chinese PLAAF is awaiting a 10 year 300 Y-20 transport building plan which is likely to increase.

Its Y-9s are going in to mass production.

The J-10bs and C if it is to be believed are still in testing phase.

The J-11s are also going into upgrading

The J-20s are at least 5-6 years away from induction and maybe a further 2-4 to be effective.

The J-31 will also be years away.

So as you can see, the fourth generations are going into 4+ to 4++ generation, and while the 5 is yet to be completed. The transports are being finalized and produced, but this will take time.

Chinese indigenous aircraft is coming into own, but a decades time is needed to work out the bugs and even just to produce in huge numbers.


As to the political commissars comment.

Today the political commissar is largely responsible for administrative tasks such as public relations and counseling, and mainly serves as second-in-command.

It's wikipedia I know, but the role of the political commissars are reflected in media, news, and other sources to indicate the role of the commissars are changing.

As to your CCP's hold on power, the CCP is a authoritarian yes, but it is not a dynasty where one emperor rules all and passes the throne to his kin.

The CCP is China and while represent may be a bit strong, its members do come directly from the people.

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

I never said IAF is superior,ever.I only say its fully capable to deter any aggression and destroy PLA supply lines in case of invasion.The fact is while the gap between indian army and PLA is substantial,the gap between IAF and PLAAF isn't so.Especially in quality.And geographic advantage is also there.
Throughout this thread,i've been a little more loud than i usually am or like to be and may have disrespected the chinese more than warranted.For this i apologize.Truth is for last few days hong wu and especially psyops have continually trolled with very disrespectful stuff towards my country and i got a little animated.China is a great nation and does have a capable military and when its transition is complete i'm sure it will be even more capable.My ire rose because of certain Unknowledgeble members abusing the Indian armed forces like it was street trash which it isn't. Our differences are political and i sincerely hope will be solved diplomatically.
Thank you and apologies again to all non troll chinese members.

 

[Shinigami]

well put. i must also add that in todays age, battles are won by by the side which rules the skies
@Genesis india may have the edge in quality and pilot training. but what most people forget is that during war time, due to advanced industry and infrastructure, china can crank out war planes at a more substantial rate than india can. those who do not realize the importance of this must know that this is the main reason USA defeated Japan in world war 2

 

[Psyops]

well put. i must also add that in todays age, battles are won by by the side which rules the skies
@Genesis india may have the edge in quality and pilot training. but what most people forget is that during war time, due to advanced industry and infrastructure, china can crank out war planes at a more substantial rate than india can. those who do not realize the importance of this must know that this is the main reason USA defeated Japan in world war 2

Quality and pilot training?

Kid please!

 

[AUSTERLITZ]

Back again kid?Care to reply my questions then mate?
Which one of ur aircraft is equal in quality to the mki?Or do u have any quality advantage in awacs[nope],transports[bIG NO] or tankers.
As for pilot quality,u have lower pilot flying hrs,no exercises with foreign air forces,lesser combat history or tradition than IAF and most of all ur rigid soviet style over centralized command system and interference from political commisars place u at yet another disadvantage.

Got any answers for that 'kid'?

 

[Beast]

@AUSTERLITZ


I have no way of confirming this but I think the PLAAF is in transition, which means it is probably at it's weakest at this moment. The Indian air force maybe equal or a tad superior at the moment.

T

I don't think PLAAF is in fact at its weakest point. The weakest point shall be around earliery 2000. Where J-10 has not enter service yet. Not to mention PL-12 does not even exist.

Now in 2013, PLAAF and PLANAF has more than
-300 J-10A/S in service.
-90 Su-27SK/UBK with a number of them upgraded to fire R-77 BVRAAM.
-72 SU-30MKK/MKK2.
-280 J-8II fighter with more than 100 of them upgraded to J-8H or J-8F which have more capable radar 1471 that can fire PL-12 BVRAAM and fire As-17 Krypton Air to Surface missile and drop LS-6 glided bomb.

-280 JH-7A that can carry a variety of laser guided and glided bomb plus KD-88 and C-802 air to Surface missiles.
-100 J-11B/BS domestic version of Su-27SK which can carry precision strike and fire PL-12 plus datalink.
-200 J-7G

I can assure you most of the aircraft in PLAAF and PLANAF has lifespan of even less than 15 years.. Meaning they are more combat worthy and able to pull the require combat G. If an airframe is too old and fighting in line for your life. Pulling a very hard G will most likely crack the airplane.

Then our AWACS and AEW fleet are already very matured and enter in large number. In fact, PLAAF has already been training with AWACS warfare or network fighting for sometimes. Definitely , they are not new to this kind of modern aerial warfare.

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