Can add 6 LCA Tejas squadrons in 4-5 years - Parrikar

[MilSpec]

Does he want or the IAF insist on a logistical headache for itself?
@MilSpec @sancho

What choice do we have? We are our own worst enemy

Mig -21 << Tejas.

I know, Fishebed were a breeze, both to mfg and maintain. LCA is a different beast.

As far as production rate is concerned, it needs to be a long term plan, Hangers, plants, lines need to be built for the same, for that MOD needs to first confirm a 5 year and a 10 year plan. If that is done, i would welcome replicating LCA lines by a private consortium with even foriegn involvement - 50% is now allowed. It will also help future tranches for development, bring good jobs and retain bulk of the money inside the ecomomy and could be a road map for fast induction of future platforms.

LCA will teach India bitter lessons in defence procurement and project mgmt than in technology.

 

[SQ8]

What choice do we have? We are our own worst enemy

How about not get another fighter in that timeframe and work on expanding the Tejas. Although the fact that the Tejas was taken as a "scratch" design as compared to something like taking an existing idea from a reputed firm and taking it to completion has been a dual edged sword. As an oft repeated bemoaning of an aviation enthusiast.. this would have been an ideal Tejas.

 

[Thorough Pro]

on paper?

NEW DELHI: India's defence R&D establishment will have to fire on all cylinders to fast-track the meandering Tejas light combat aircraft, which is still not fully operational or combat ready, if it does not want the Narendra Modi government to critically re-examine the entire project.

The Tejas project, in fact, may even get some competition in the light-weight fighter category. Defence minister Manohar Parrikar said "some other single-engine, lighter fighter" other than the home-grown Tejas could also be considered for a "Make in India" project to replace the obsolete MiG-21s.

Restricting the acquisition of expensive twin-engine French Rafale fighters to just 36 for now, instead of the original plan for 126 MMRCA (medium multi-role combat aircraft), Parrikar stressed he was trying to plug operational gaps in airpower by improving serviceability of "heavy-weight" Sukhoi-30MKIs as well as "pushing" the DRDO-HAL combine to deliver Tejas faster.

"Don't compare Rafale, a top-end fighter, to MiG-21s, which we will phase out in about six to 10 years. The replacement for MiG-21s will be Tejas or some other single-engine, lighter aircraft. Tejas ki maar bhi kaafi hai (Tejas packs a punch) and it's much better than a MiG-21, but has certain limitations," said Parrikar.

Though some interpreted this to mean impending doom for the Tejas project, a top official dismissed it by clarifying the government was "just keeping all options open" to make "numbers" with IAF down to just 34 fighter squadrons when 44 are needed. "There could be scope for a single-engine fighter, which would be much cheaper than Rafale, somewhere between the capabilities of Rafale and Tejas," he said.

Incidentally, the original plan was that six squadrons each of MMRCA and Tejas would replace the existing 10 Mig-21 and four MiG-27 squadrons. Parrikar, on his part, said, "In the next four to five years, we can add about six LCA squadrons if we push HAL, which I am doing."

DRDO-HAL will certainly need to be pushed on the Tejas project since it's critical for self-reliance in defence production. The first Tejas was handed over to IAF on January 17 but it was in "initial operational configuration", which signifies its airworthy but not combat-ready. The pilot training and maintenance manuals are also still not ready, delaying its actual induction into IAF.

The fighter's final operational clearance (FOC), with integration of all weapons like guns, laser-guided bombs and BVR (beyond visual range) missiles as well mid-air refuelling capability, is likely to be delayed beyond the re-revised deadline of December 2015.

The Tejas Mark-II version which the IAF actually wants — with more powerful engines, airframe changes, weight and drag reduction — will begin to come in only by 2021 or so. So, Parrikar will need to do a lot of pushing if he wants swifter deliveries of the multi-role fighters.

Defence News - Can add 6 LCA Tejas squadrons in 4-5 years - Parrikar

 

[thesolar65]

The manufacture of MKIs has been (almost) fully indigenized only recently. Initially HAL was assembling them from semi knocked-down kits, then they progressed to assembling completely knocked down kits, and then for later batches, they began to manufacture parts in house. It was only recently that they have started manufacturing them right from raw material stage. So all the years prior to that, they faced issues of lack of spares from Russia, etc. To give one example, they could not procure the wheels due to delays from Russia - but now MRF is manufacturing that within India.

Besides, there were also clauses in the contract that certain materials (like the titanium for the airframe) could only be purchased from Russia. That may also have been a factor.

And about Engine? How much of it is made here?

 

[Donatello]

How about not get another fighter in that timeframe and work on expanding the Tejas. Although the fact that the Tejas was taken as a "scratch" design as compared to something like taking an existing idea from a reputed firm and taking it to completion has been a dual edged sword. As an oft repeated bemoaning of an aviation enthusiast.. this would have been an ideal Tejas.
View attachment 215462

That seems to be a lot of load on that small wing. And a twin tail for a single engine light fighter?

 

[anant_s]

At best we will see maybe 3 squadrons by the year 2020.

Thats a very realistic assessment.
& it also prompts that the shortfall would have to be met with an imported option. The interesting part here is an option other than Rafale.

some other single-engine, lighter fighter

Now what that could be is intriguing.

 

[SQ8]

That seems to be a lot of load on that small wing. And a twin tail for a single engine light fighter?

Not at all, Sukhoi studied the idea.

 

[anant_s]

Is he indirectly indicating, that since LCA can be ramped up (which i do not know how), then MMRCA doesn't need to be done

That statement is actually a deviation from an understanding / prevailing belief, that all MiG 21, 27 and Jaguar retirement/attrition will be covered by Rafale (even though not in 1:1 basis). HAL seems to have given DM an assurance that they can cover up for MiG 21 as far as squadron numbers are concerned. Now based on that it looks, government has decided to see how far hey succeed. If there is a shortfall in LCA production, more Rafales can be ordered in small batches (keeping capital budgetary expenditure commitments reasonable).
But as @Dillinger as said above, the time frame in which 6 squadrons are promised, looks a really stiff target.

 

[The BrOkEn HeArT]

6 squadrons is good progress in coming 3-4 years. Numbers matters too to put pressure on enemy.

 

[Dillinger]

Thats a very realistic assessment.
& it also prompts that the shortfall would have to be met with an imported option. The interesting part here is an option other than Rafale.

Now what that could be is intriguing.

No, it is not going to end in the acquisition of a light fighter. The MoD has clarified that what they meant was that they were taking all steps to meet the shortfall in fleet strength, the RM was not explicitly or implicitly pointing at another acquisition (at least not at this point in time).

At best the Hawks will be armed for CAS, something which the HAL itself proposed (another inane idea). With all of its "shortfalls" which do you think is better, the LCA Mk.1 armed and in the skies or the damn Hawks playing at CAS?

What choice do we have? We are our own worst enemy


I know, Fishebed were a breeze, both to mfg and maintain. LCA is a different beast.

As far as production rate is concerned, it needs to be a long term plan, Hangers, plants, lines need to be built for the same, for that MOD needs to first confirm a 5 year and a 10 year plan. If that is done, i would welcome replicating LCA lines by a private consortium with even foriegn involvement - 50% is now allowed. It will also help future tranches for development, bring good jobs and retain bulk of the money inside the ecomomy and could be a road map for fast induction of future platforms.

LCA will teach India bitter lessons in defence procurement and project mgmt than in technology.

And that is exactly where the MoD will (as always) drop the ball. A medium to long term integrated approach is beyond the mental acumen of the Indian administration. To expand the production rate HAL will have to requisition fresh funds, best of luck getting said requisition cleared before 2018 at best if HAL starts today itself.

Whilst the pro-activeness is appreciated, I dont think the over-diversification will be. Does he want or the IAF insist on a logistical headache for itself?
@MilSpec @sancho

No tag for me? Does my opinion no longer matter?

It is not likely that any further acquisitions will be made. Another tender at this time in untenable and the government cannot burn its hands going for another big ticket G2G deal for the air force, especially when the home grown article is so close to taking its place in the IAF's stable (this is the political down-low). On purely financial grounds it would not be feasible either, there is only one in-operation fighter which would fulfill the criteria and it won't be "cheap" by any standard.

 

[anant_s]

No, it is not going to end in the acquisition of a light fighter. The MoD has clarified that what they meant was that they were taking all steps to meet the shortfall in fleet strength, the RM was not explicitly or implicitly pointing at another acquisition (at least not at this point in time).

Well it could be a warning in disguise to HAL and other agencies to get their act together and ensure FOC and subsequent delivery schedules are not missed. It looks a bit crazy to have an altogether new fighter just to cover up the lost time owing to delays in LCA program. Doesn't make sense either operationally nor economically.

At best the Hawks will be armed for CAS, something which the HAL itself proposed (another inane idea). With all of its "shortfalls" which do you think is better, the LCA Mk.1 armed and in the skies or the damn Hawks playing at CAS?

am sorry, didn't know HAL is pushing forward the case of arming Hawks. But again why? All they need to do is concentrate on LCA production which hopefully is in quite matured state (production line pov). Don't think stop gap arrangements will do anyone, any good.

 

[GURU DUTT]

How about not get another fighter in that timeframe and work on expanding the Tejas. Although the fact that the Tejas was taken as a "scratch" design as compared to something like taking an existing idea from a reputed firm and taking it to completion has been a dual edged sword. As an oft repeated bemoaning of an aviation enthusiast.. this would have been an ideal Tejas.
View attachment 215462

Salaam Oscar saeen

Janab LCA is very important to us why we count make it happen on time was deu tosome extarnal and internal (corruption in UPA govermnets, MOD & IAF top brass who wanted and possiballi did every thing to delay LCA)

but new Goverment is putting maximum effort and pressure both on HAL/DRDO &I AF/MOD to speed up the project while fine tuning and hammering owt glitches in parts procurement both from internal and extarnal suppliers so if not 6 then 4 squads are very much possible by the time frame given by new DM who is famous for getting the job done in time backed by Modi ji himself who is taking personal interests in LCA project and many others

in short Modi ji & Parkikar Ji ne "ungli terri ker di hai"

 

[graphican]

Unrealistic expectations is a problem in itself. Targets like "state of the art", "best of its kind", "will make down to every bolt" and "will make it working by tomorrow night" are problems, not visions. India needs somebody who has a realistic head on his shoulders.

 

[GURU DUTT]

Unrealistic expectations is a problem in itself. Targets like "state of the art", "best of its kind", "will make down to every bolt" and "will make it working by tomorrow night" are problems, not visions. India needs somebody who has a realistic head on his shoulders.

well u are right and now we have modi and Parikar combo for just that ...cheers mate

 

[Rajaraja Chola]

You speak the truth. But you may be attacked pretty soon and even labelled a false flagger.

Presumely I dont want a well known Indian troll like u trying to advice me,..