Burqa 'not welcome' in France: Sarkozy

[Al-zakir]

My point is if Muslim dominated countries (Turkey and Tunisia) can ban it why can't France ban it?

I personally find these two county more disturbing than France or any other western and non Islamic state imposing ban on burka or hijab. They are non Muslim so why should we expect for them to allow our why of life when our own don't allow it. I mean what kind of example these two moronic country setting up for rest of the world. I repeat my previous proposal that these two country should be kicked out from OIC as they aren't Islamic enough.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

This has nothing to with Islam per say, but with France's inability to reconcile republican sentiments with religion - all religion (The turban, any overt display of the crucifix is also not allowed). As it pertains to the infringement of individual rights of people, it matters to people of all religion. So no, this isn't just a topic that can't be discussed by Hindus or Indians.

A1kaid:

I agree with Nemesis's point here - the issue is not the Burqa itself, but whether banning expression of religion or religious symbolism is an infringement of civil liberties.

 

[gubbi]

It is irrelevant what YOU or others think Islam allows or does not allow - if a woman interprets her Islamic faith to suggest that the Burqa is a necessity, and there is no tangible and significant cost to society from that decision, then that is what is required by the Quran for those women.

If you follow that logic, then why do muslims condemn the so called 'corrupted' western traditions or for that matter cultures other than Islamic? What gives you the right to criticize them, their interpretation of life? They find it comfortable to do things according to their interpretations of whatever laws they follow. So what gives you people the right to condemn them? Hypocrisy?

If there are women that are coerced into wearing the Burqa, then that is a separate issue of 'domestic violence' or repression. The underlying issue in 'coercing women to wear the Burqa' is the attitude of those men towards women, and you won't change the underlying problem by banning the Burqa - the abuse and coercion will merely continue in other aspects of their lives.

Agreed. Sexual humiliation in the form of rape or any other form is basically projection of power from one individual to another. It can happen to both the sexes, but commonly, the females being physically weaker than the males bear the brunt of this despicable display of power.

It makes perfect sense - your argument was that if you don't like a law you should 'leave' - you left yourself wide open for that comment.
Banning the Burqa is trivial compared to slavery (I did admit that in my earlier post) but the underlying principle of denying someone their rights is the same.

Slavery was Morally wrong, all the countries were against it and so it was banned. There is nothing morally wrong with banning the burqa. These two cannot be related in anyway whatsoever. Slavery was forced upon a group of people. Slaves did not have a choice to leave, even if they wanted to escape. In this case, people have a choice. If you talk about people born in France, then yes they too have a choice. When you can leave your country and settle in the great Satan USA, so can they leave France and settle in countries which allow them to practice a strict interpretation of Islam - like Saudi Arabia.

And so I reiterate my point - their land, their laws - follow it or if you dont like it then leave! I was having a conversation with a gora here (he who voted for Obama) and what he basically said was, "We strictly follow their rules when in Saudi Arabia or Iraq -no liquor, etc. If they come to USA they have to follow our laws. If they dont like laws here, then why come hereall at , go elsewhere. Dont come here if you feel the laws are unfair. Simple" Hes got a point.
I guess that should be made a rule in all countries! Like muslims expect the foreigners to follow their laws in their lands, in a similar way, same should go be applicable people when they are visiting or staying in foreign lands!

Finally, some of you have argued that the Burqa is no mandatory in Islam, while I personally agree with that, the way to resolve this is not through banning the Burqa, but through spreading the interpretation of Islam that supports this argument, educating women and men on the issue etc.

I disagree. Its basically their land, their laws They can damn do whatever they please. They have banned overt expression of religious symbols, so be it! I am all for banning overt display of religious symbols. Now if they try to infringe on the right of practicing a religion peacefully, then I do have a problem. If not, I dont care.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you follow that logic, then why do muslims condemn the so called 'corrupted' western traditions? They find it comfortable according to their interpretations of whatever laws they follow. SO what gives you people the right to condemn them? Hypocrisy?

What does this have to do with me and my argument? I am not arguing on the behalf of all Muslims. Have I condemned XYZ? if I have then raise the issue, otherwise it has no bearing on my argument.

Slavery was Morally wrong, all the countries were against it and so it was banned. There is nothing morally wrong with banning the burqa. These two cannot be related in anyway whatsoever. And so I reiterate my point - their land, their laws - follow it or if you dont like it then leave! I was having a conversation with a gora here (he who voted for Obama) and what he basically said was, "We strictly follow their rules when in Saudi Arabia or Iraq -no liquor, etc. If they come to USA they have to follow our laws. If they dont like laws here, then why come hereall at , go elsewhere. Dont come here if you feel the laws are unfair. Simple" Hes got a point.
I guess that should be made a rule in all countries! Like muslims expect the foreigners to follow their laws in their lands, in a similar way, same should go be applicable people when they are visiting or staying in foreign lands!

Stop with the strawman arguments. This is not about what Muslim countries do or do not do - this is about French citizens and french Muslims. These people are not living in Saudi Arabia or Malaysis, they are living in France and are french citizens, and the topic of discussion is the suggested French ban on the Burqa.

The question is one of civil liberties, and I am not suggesting that a ban on the Burqa is as bad as slavery. What I am pointing out is that they are both infringements of civil liberties. Banning expression of religion or religious symbolism infringes upon ones rights to practice and believe in what they want.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

I disagree. Its basically their land, their laws They can damn do whatever they please. They have banned overt expression of religious symbols, so be it! I am all for banning overt display of religious symbols. Now if they try to infringe on the right of practicing a religion peacefully, then I do have a problem. If not, I dont care.

Hogwash - just because a majority feel that it is their land, they cannot impose slavery. Even if Muslims are a minority in France, they are nonetheless French citizens, and therefore have no right to have their civil liberties infringed upon by the intolerant majority. And this argument applies to all faith's. No one has the right to tell a French or American citizen to 'leave' their nation if they don't like intolerant and discriminatory laws.

 

[ANDUBYLL]

la clameur de la burqa en France

I sincerely hope its not banned.

One, it compromises the French principle of Egalite' . Secondly , it gives a wrong impression to the world , that France is worried about what basically is a dress item.

Lastly, I feel that it gives a green light for France to implement other measures that it feels are 'draconian'. Suddenly Arabic schools would be picked up as an issue if the peoples perception are that they enspouse anti French feeling. Mosques can be regulated because some looney might decide to be a terrorist and attack or harm western interests.

I sincerely hope that France indeed tries to be more accomodative in its approach. As generations pass, French muslims will take more and more characterists of the host nation and burqas will be less and less popular.

 

[s90]

Very good step why should France accomodate a stupid thing like burqa when a country like Saudi Arab which represents Islam dont let do the same thing.

 

[Al-zakir]

I see some of guys making harsh comment against Burqa. I suggest you guys think before making nonsense comment especially if you are Muslim. It may not be direct word of Qur’an however it is one of they way women can cover her body which is form of Ibadah. The whole idea of the Hijab is to cover the women sexual body part. How about done is women choice. Shalwar kameez does a fine job in subcontinent though now a days it's losing it original essence as it is being Indianize to core whereas form of gown works in the Arabian Peninsula which is also known as Burqa. There is no disagreement about some form of Hijab however there is option when comes to cover the face. Covering the face is not mandatory as accordance with Islamic scholars.

There are may be some places where women are force to wear Burqa with cover face which is wrong at sometime it also a reality that there are place where women does wear Burqa with pride. For example in USA almost all black Muslim women wear Burqa whereas I have seen Arab, Pakistani and Bangladeshi girls wear skin tight jean and t-shirt with scrap on the head which itself is disgrace and mockery to the word Hijab. What good does it do when her whole body shape appear as almost naked with freaking scrap on the head. Total BS. Wearing a freaking scrap on the head is not Hijab. It is her body that counts not the head. Either comply with Hijab fully or don’t

Bottom line is women must cover their body because Allah orders them to do. It’s she that will face the almighty on judgment day and liable for her action. Islamic society must implement such laws and regulations that comply with the Qur’aan and Sunnah.

 

[A1Kaid]

Just like to add this small point here. Never have I seen or heard of Muslim women protesting to wear the burqa (or in support of the burqa), I have seen and heard of protest to wear the hijab. This says a lot about the women's view on burqa.

You will see demonstrations for wearing the hijab but never the burqa...


If anyone has seen or heard of a significant pro-burqa demonstrations post it here, in what capital has there been a protest?

 

[rubyjackass]

Actually its not 'simple' - a French Muslim, born and raised there, cannot be expected to merely 'leave'. That is an absurd argument.

Banning the Burqa is one small infringement of an individuals civil liberties, but extrapolating from your argument, it is then alright for all manner of repressive polices to be imposed upon a people - after all, 'if you don't like it, leave the country'.

Perhaps states should be allowed to bring back slavery as well, the Africans can just 'leave' then.

Dude!! what you are saying is like...
'Don't ban slavery because some people like to watch bondage ****'.
If people want the rights to be slave, would you give them?

 

[soldRoMeo1]

The key to understanding the issue is the French concept of \\\"laicite\\\" or secularism. They are very sensitive on religion interference in he state, and as such denounce any act they consider religiously provocative. Its not just with the muslims, they are intolerant to any religious display in France. Its been the basic tenet of its progressive thinking with its influential writers like Voltaire and Diderot regarding religion as divisive and intolerant.
They may not be completely wrong in their thinking, guarding their secularism against any potential religious conundrum is wise considering the hand religion has to play in todays volatile world.

 

[Always Neutral]

Surprised? NO, you shouldn't be. Sarkozy is a bonafid zionist, and former MOSSAD. I remember during his first 'victory' and there was clamour about his Mossad past over Italy and Europe, then huge media suppression. All of a sudden, France being pro-Palestine become pro-Israel.

Oh so Mossad is behind the ban ? How many of you criticise the govts like Saudi etc which enforce what we feel in the West are stupid practices but when we go there on work we follow them out of respect for that country.

I am happy that France is leading the way.

Regards

 

[afriend]

Dude!! what you are saying is like...
'Don't ban slavery because some people like to watch bondage ****'.
If people want the rights to be slave, would you give them?

I would back Burqua Ban All the way. I think this system is one of the flawed interpretation of Islam.

Any bad thing in a religion should be done away with.. like the sati.. dowery system.. and the Burqa system.... No matter how it evolved into a religious symbol. It really keeps the Muslim women away from the free society. I think muslim scholars should advocate only for proper dressing and should raise voice against the veil.

As per me.. only thieves.. insecure people and terrorists use veil to camouflage and distance themselves from the society..!!!!! And of course those Muslim women who have inherited this legacy from their predecessors...!!! But this has to change..and people should take the lead and show the way..and suggest the good way of living life as per the principles of the religion and not the veiled way of living..!!!

 

[gambit]

My take is that France overreacted with this legal edict. Better off using education and persuasion to show how this piece of clothing can be symbolic of a chasm between the West and the muslim world.

We all know who is the woman on the left...

Astronaut Bio: Eileen Collins (5/2006)

Not every woman will grow up to be astronauts, but it is telling that only recently have Saudi Arabia hired on a woman pilot.

albawaba.com middle east news information::Muslim female pilot creates major ”turbulence”

But even though she is fully qualified to operate an aircraft, a vehicle that take man out of our natural element, she is forbidden by religious morals and legal edicts to drive. Saudi interpretation of Islamic ethics believe that driving leads to temptation. Driving is far less demanding and far more technically feasible than flying. But both activities does take the woman away from male controls.

The burqua is a symbol of restraints on women just as much as it is a piece of clothing. They can be colorful but even that is very much an allowance by men. In effect, the burqua-ed woman may not even have the option of accessorizing her intellectual restraints.

France is indeed overreacting but no amount of protests by muslimahs can hide the fact that this is beyond sexual modesty but is an intellectual restraint.

 

[DarkStar]

Most religious scholars, even in Saudi Arabia, have spoken out against this ludicrous law that stops women from driving.

They point out that the wives of the Prophet did ride their own Camels. Haz. Aisha even led an army atop one, which was later called the Battle of the Camel.

Regaring Sarkozy's "State of the Union" Adress about Burqas, however flawed something may seem, however distasteful, banning is an extreme measure.

Lots of really harmful activities are not banned, some are even taxed.

Wearing a burqa is fairly innocuous, especially if it is the wish of the wearer.

This hogwash about women being forced by men...take one look at many muslim families out in the streets of Europe, one sister would be wearing the niqab, while another would have her hair dyed and lashes curled...a woman would be without a scarf, while her daughter is wearing a face veil...

Banning something should be something as a last resort, and funnily enough, I jsut came back from France today.

For the life of me, I couldn't see one woman wearing a burqa, even though France is full of muslim North Africans.

This issue is nothing but a publicity stunt, because Muslims are an easy target for political mafiosos, who score cheap points on such issues, fooling the electorate and playing into the hands of the right wing neo nazi, extremist groups.