Burqa 'not welcome' in France: Sarkozy

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

If you don't like it then leave! Simple.

Actually its not 'simple' - a French Muslim, born and raised there, cannot be expected to merely 'leave'. That is an absurd argument.

Banning the Burqa is one small infringement of an individuals civil liberties, but extrapolating from your argument, it is then alright for all manner of repressive polices to be imposed upon a people - after all, 'if you don't like it, leave the country'.

Perhaps states should be allowed to bring back slavery as well, the Africans can just 'leave' then.

 

[gubbi]

Actually its not 'simple' - a French Muslim, born and raised there, cannot be expected to merely 'leave'. That is an absurd argument.

The French have not banned free practice of religion, but have banned any display of religious material in their country. Their Christians, Sikhs, the evil 'Juice' cannot do it, so neither can French born Muslim kids! Their laws, so better follow the laws.

Banning the Burqa is one small infringement of an individuals civil liberties, but extrapolating from your argument, it is then alright for all manner of repressive polices to be imposed upon a people - after all, 'if you don't like it, leave the country'.

Burqa is not required per se according to Quran. So there you have it. Its not an infringement of individual rights. Many Muslim women are forced to wear this burqa in the name of religion and modesty. Like someone (edit: it was A1Kaid) pointed out in an earlier post, a Salwar Kameez with a nice dupatta can do the job equally good if not better.There are many women who would like to get rid of this burdersome piece of cloth and they would definitely welcome this. BTW, scholars agree that the Muslim traditions borrow heavily from the Bedouin culture predating the rise of Islam. Burqa was a part of that tradition. What does it have to do with the French? They dont like it, so dont do it in their land. Would you like if the French wore their 'revealing' clothes and walked your streets and demanded your govt and people respect their cultural rights?

Perhaps states should be allowed to bring back slavery as well, the Africans can just 'leave' then.

Really? Are you really that out of touch with reality? And does this comment make any sense?
FYI, slavery wasn't abolished because the black man didn't like. It was abolished because it was morally wrong, Europeans had banned it much earlier than the Americans. We hear about the slavery in America only because it accompanied a civil war, a war in which slavery was but one of the reasons. Ironic, isn't it?

 

[A1Kaid]

Actually its not 'simple' - a French Muslim, born and raised there, cannot be expected to merely 'leave'. That is an absurd argument.

Banning the Burqa is one small infringement of an individuals civil liberties, but extrapolating from your argument, it is then alright for all manner of repressive polices to be imposed upon a people - after all, 'if you don't like it, leave the country'.

Perhaps states should be allowed to bring back slavery as well, the Africans can just 'leave' then.

This really comes down to "Majority Rules and Minority Rights".

I agree asking native French born Muslims to leave the country is absurd.


But if you think banning the burqa is an infringement on a person's civil liberties, which maybe true, but understand in many cases it is forced upon a girl by her family, that too is an infringement on civil liberties. Also what is more harmful is a women who wears a burqa in a modern society puts herself in danger because her sight and breathing is hindered, holding something in the hands is difficult. So the normal functions of a person are prevented, also it prevents one from receiving natural sun light which is a danger to one's health.


There is more good to come from banning the burqa then keeping it. The "civil liberty" we are discussing is "modesty" (based on religious or cultural factors), correct? This is the principle and rationale some women may use for choosing to wear the "burqa". However, there are better alternatives that allow a women to protect her modesty and remain in accordance with her religion, meanwhile maintaining safety and the natural human functions one must be able to perform in a modern society.


Point is sure yes it can certainly be seen as an "infringement on civil liberties", and you can make the argument of freedom of expression, but understand the burqa can realistically present a security risk (I understand as a Muslim most of the time it is just a Muslim woman wearing the burqa...), and in France your "freedom of expression" or "civil liberties" is not allowed to infringe on others collective safety.



We must find a balance here, and my answer is there are better and safer alternatives that both sides can agree with, and that is their are better dressing alternatives that allow Muslim women to maintain their modesty, respect, all in accordance with their religion...

 

[A1Kaid]

Actually its not 'simple' - a French Muslim, born and raised there, cannot be expected to merely 'leave'. That is an absurd argument.

Banning the Burqa is one small infringement of an individuals civil liberties, but extrapolating from your argument, it is then alright for all manner of repressive polices to be imposed upon a people - after all, 'if you don't like it, leave the country'.

Perhaps states should be allowed to bring back slavery as well, the Africans can just 'leave' then.

Also as a Muslim we are or should be submissive to Allah and Allah's laws and in accordance with the Quran.


The Burqa is not a mandate from the Quran, so even we Muslims should not be supporting what is really a wahabi-taliban cultural dress code imposed on women.


You said it is an infringement on civil liberties, well the Quran has not come to us to appease everyone's desires and civil liberties but the will and laws of Allah.

Banning "gay marriage" can also be seen as an infringement on civil liberties, but we don't allow that in Pakistan, and Thanks be to Allah.

Point is we are not here to appease human wishes and everyone's civil desires and liberties accordance to their own opinion and ideology.

There is Allah and Allah's laws are supreme, in the Islamic view.

 

[A1Kaid]

Couldn't have said it better bro.
Their land, their laws. We are their guests. Gotta follow their rules when in their land, whatever they be.
If you don't like it then leave! Simple.

No offense, but this is a Muslim/Islam and French/European/Secular issue and topic. Hindu or Indian opinion is irrelevant and this has nothing to do with you or your women, though your free to comment as this forum provides a great platform to do so, but your opinion matters little here, the issue does not involve you.


It is a problem that involved us Muslims/Islam and France/Secularism, let us handle it and let us think without outside interference.


Kindly advising you to mind your own business


P.S Mods please let me say this to him.

 

[sob]

France being a Catholic country over years has strived to separate Religion from state. They have laws that prohibit wearing religious symbols, even a Cross, in schools.

This is an internal affair of the country but on a personal level, barring any security reason, there should not be any public ban on wearing a Burqa.

 

[gubbi]

No offense, but this is a Muslim/Islam and French/European/Secular issue and topic. Hindu or Indian opinion is irrelevant and this has nothing to do with you or your women, though your free to comment as this forum provides a great platform to do so, but your opinion matters little here, the issue does not involve you.


It is a problem that involved us Muslims/Islam and France/Secularism, let us handle it and let us think without outside interference.


Kindly advising you to mind your own business


P.S Mods please let me say this to him.

Thanks for your views. Way to develop a good conversation. If so called we 'Hindoos' cannot comment on issues relating to Islam, then why do Pakistani Muslims comment on Indian 'Hindoo' issues? We all would appreciate if you tell them all to stay clear from our issues in the same tone.
I was only trying to discuss an issue, on an open forum, where I too am a member. You put forth a very clear and sane view and I, personally, really appreciated that.

 

[Nemesis]

This has nothing to with Islam per say, but with France's inability to reconcile republican sentiments with religion - all religion (The turban, any overt display of the crucifix is also not allowed). As it pertains to the infringement of individual rights of people, it matters to people of all religion. So no, this isn't just a topic that can't be discussed by Hindus or Indians.

 

[niaz]

There are few things that I would like to say in connection with this 'Burqa not allowed in France'.

First of all France is not a Muslim country, it has its own culture and French are very nationalistic. Since it is their country, they have all the right to make laws that are according to their culture. In Islamic countries, we don’t allow the westerners to do certain things such as drinking alcohol, and sun bathing in open etc. If we can impose certain laws on the westerners, why they can’t impose laws on foreigners irrespective of Muslims or not?

And the second thing is, if some one has to cover herself from head to toe, why she or her family chooses to go to France in the first place?

I had a friend here in USA. I know him from the days when both of us used to work in the Aga Khan University back in late nineties. He immigrated to Canada and I went to Malaysia. Later we joined together here in Atlanta after almost 5 years. My friend (and his family) are very practicing Muslims. He invited me to his house, me and my family went. He did not let her wife come in front of me, in fact he took me upstairs and served me food there. OK, even though neither my wife nor I liked this whole idea, since he was a friend, and the host, we respected his choice. Later on, I invited him to my house, and even after repeated invitations, he refused to come. And you know why? Because he thought I would not be able to serve them with Halal food since I used to buy meat from a different store selling halal meat than his, and that I might not be able to serve him and his wife separately. Now what kind of Islam is this? Obviously if he had come to my house, I would have never come in front of his wife if that is what he likes. But simply refusing invitation from another Muslim who also happens to be your friend, how Islamic is this?

Question is why the hell such people leave their country in the first place if they had to do all this? These people find it OK to serve Kaafirs and earn money in their countries but don’t want to follow their laws and cultural norms. Sorry to say but I have found Westerners far more civilized as compared to the Asians in general and Muslims in particular. I have several American friends, few are French. Whenever I was invited, never once they put pork or alcohol on the table. They know we are Muslims and they have always respected our religion. Once I and my family were invited by one of my friend to spend vacations at his parents place up in North Carolina. We stayed with them for a full week and during all this time, they did not cook pork and never drank alcohol while we were around. Similarly neither I nor my wife has ever been asked about our dress code. No one ever forced us to put on swimming costumes on the beach etc. Fact of the matter is, it is easier to live in Kaafir's lands than it is in the Muslim countries. I am extremely sorry if someone's feelings are hurt, but that is my experience.

Some thing we totally agree. Whatever the motives, each country has a right to institute the laws passed by their elected representatives. We are Muslims but other countries or not. You have a choice to avoid going to places where you are forced to break Islamic laws.

When I came to England for studies back in 1962; Indian restaurants were very few and on student money a bit expensive. I ate only halal food hence limited myself to eating eggs, vegetables, fish and /or buying food from Jewish shops such as salt beef or Pastrami. However the choice to come to England was entirely mine and I was prepared to put up with restrictions to avoid impure food. It so happens that with so many Muslims living in the UK, the problem doesn’t exist and one can always choose sea food when invited for a business dinner

Christians use wine in their mass, but all alcohol import is banned in Saudi Arabia, how you would feel if some religious minded orthodox European Christians uses the same argument and insist on importing alcohol to celebrate the mass? The argument that we are bound by the Laws of Allah does not apply here. Let human rights people take up the issue.

In Sura Ahzab the verse only orders women to cover themselves without clarifying what is meant by ‘covering’. One hadith attributed to Hazrat Ayesha (RA) says that face can be left uncovered. However there is another hadith with more asnaad which says that face should be covered as well. In my book more asnaad does not necessarily mean that hadith of Hazrat Ayehsa (RA) is weak and therefore not applicable, possibility always exists of misinterpretation when something is written about a hundred years later. Thus one cannot claim with certainty that wearing burqa is ordered by Allah. Besides burqa provides a tool for terrorists to go around unnoticed (Remember Maulana Abdul Aziz of Lal Masjid?) I am therefore against burqa even in Pakistan during current circumstances.

 

[great one]

The French revolution was the first Atheist revolution in the World and inspired the Russian revolution. This issue is about preserving the idea of French Secularism. The irony is that it was the conquests of Napoleon Bonaparte that first transported the ideas of European Nationalism to muslim countries.

Most muslim immigrants to France come from former French Colonies such as Algeria and Morocco so they will have been influenced by French culture and are trying to reasert their islamic identity. This must be a balance between being free to practice ones religion and respecting the laws and customs of the host country.

 

[garibnawaz]

All of the above examples, if true, just as condemnable as the French proposal.

My point is if Muslim dominated countries (Turkey and Tunisia) can ban it why can't France ban it?

Besides below is the Pic of Ayatollah Khomeni's Turkey visit.

He and his aid behind are without turbans where as some other people are wearing western hats.

 

[khanz]

I personally think burqas are not compulsary they are over the top in my opinion. Hijabs and loose clothing are enough for modesty .I am also against burqa even in pakistan nobody gonna get turned on by just showing your face esp for security reasons you don't know who's behind the covering and it could be criminals behind them we wouldn't be able to know and they can use to hide and escape as militants including fazlullah himself have done in the past.

Other styles are good enough you can be modest without concealing your identity by hiding your face and being a possible security threat these other non-face forms of covering are good enough.......

 

[paritosh]

I personally think burqas are not compulsary they are over the top in my opinion. Hijabs and loose clothing are enough for modesty .I am also against burqa even in pakistan nobody gonna get turned on by just showing your face esp for security reasons you don't know who's behind the covering and it could be criminals behind them we wouldn't be able to know and they can use to hide and escape as militants including fazlullah himself have done in the past.

Other styles are good enough you can be modest without concealing your identity by hiding your face and being a possible security threat these other non-face forms of covering are good enough.......

from your post i make that you want females to dress up so as not to arouse other men...and for that basically they need to cover themselves from head to toe...well barring the face as you say...so that 'people' dont get aroused...dont you think the problem of "people getting aroused" should be addressed rather?
that is why burqa and even hijab potray women as lower beings....for it is the female who has to work to make up for a man's lack of self-control....it is virtually asking the female to be invisible when she is outside her home...!
the anlogy for men to the wearing of burqas by females would be to wear a horse's eye patch...the kind of thing that the 'tonga wallas' make their horses wear so that look straight and are not distracted!
if a female is attractive is it not alright?i am also against the pardah system in some hindu villages....do correct me if iam wrong.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The French have not banned free practice of religion, but have banned any display of religious material in their country. Their Christians, Sikhs, the evil 'Juice' cannot do it, so neither can French born Muslim kids! Their laws, so better follow the laws.

And I did not suggest that their restrictions on religious symbolism from Islam alone was condemnable.

Burqa is not required per se according to Quran.

It is irrelevant what YOU or others think Islam allows or does not allow - if a woman interprets her Islamic faith to suggest that the Burqa is a necessity, and there is no tangible and significant cost to society from that decision, then that is what is required by the Quran for those women.

If there are women that are coerced into wearing the Burqa, then that is a separate issue of 'domestic violence' or repression. The underlying issue in 'coercing women to wear the Burqa' is the attitude of those men towards women, and you won't change the underlying problem by banning the Burqa - the abuse and coercion will merely continue in other aspects of their lives.

Really? Are you really that out of touch with reality? And does this comment make any sense?
FYI, slavery wasn't abolished because the black man didn't like. It was abolished because it was morally wrong, Europeans had banned it much earlier than the Americans. We hear about the slavery in America only because it accompanied a civil war, a war in which slavery was but one of the reasons. Ironic, isn't it?

It makes perfect sense - your argument was that if you don't like a law you should 'leave' - you left yourself wide open for that comment.

Banning the Burqa is trivial compared to slavery (I did admit that in my earlier post) but the underlying principle of denying someone their rights is the same.

Finally, some of you have argued that the Burqa is no mandatory in Islam, while I personally agree with that, the way to resolve this is not through banning the Burqa, but through spreading the interpretation of Islam that supports this argument, educating women and men on the issue etc.

EDIT: A sentence in the wrong spot.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

My point is if Muslim dominated countries (Turkey and Tunisia) can ban it why can't France ban it?

And my point was the same as in my last post.