Buner falls without a fight

[IceCold]

Pak shares a common border with India too but distances itself when it chooses.

It does not matter who did what.. what is relevant where do we go from here. Is there a way out keeping the essentials intact ?

Can you please enlighten us all what is the connection with India in this regard because i simply did not get your logic or was it an attempt to derail the thread.

 

[IceCold]

I think thisis again deteriorating into a flame war. I'd request posters to refrain from asking rhetorical questions like "Why does Pak Army do this" or "Why won't western armies pack up and leave" . It gets the people worked up and they respond in kind instead of with facts.

Thanks to Agnostic Muslim for trying to respond with facts and links when possible. I can put myself in his shoes and think of a similar comments about Assam and India being posted here and I'd certainly be pissed off.

What exactly did you see in my post that you refer to as an attempt to start a flame war.?

 

[Xeric]

Blaming West for whats ails you is like Blaming the Bed for Sex. You actively colluded and promoted these pawns and now its comeback to bite you on your bottom you don't where to run for cover. Remember Zia and the three other nations who recognised the Taliban regime ?

Regards

Now i think you really read to enlighten yourself up!

Lolzz..give me a break.

Who made the Talibans, Pakistan...on whose requirements? Yours dude..urs...!!

All the damn CIA funding and the proxy war!!

Don't try to run!
Give me some reason to digest your posts. Lolzz blaming the West. You are the only Western who thinks otherwise.

Who brought the drugs, the free weapons, extremism inside Pakistan.

Remember the golden words of Charlie Wilson "we did well in the start, achieved the goal but fu*ked up the End Game" Which damn End Game was he referring to????

Don't shy of admitting your follies.

 

[Always Neutral]

Lets move off emotive arguments. No ones hands are clean in Afghanistan. The taliban were one faction in a civil war as were the Northern Alliance supported by India and others, and both sides committed atrocities.

The US may not have officially supported the Taliban, but it definitely was not averse to negotiating with them through intermediaries for US business interests (Oil and gas pipelines).

I more than agree but solely blaming the west for what ails Pakistan now is what I find hard to accept. After all creation of a new Pakhtoonistan is not something the west cares one way or the other but you definately need to. Anyway by carrying out the flawed agreement with the SWAT TTP further you are actually reducing the chances further of bringing them into the main stream.

Regards

 

[khanz]

there is no more taliban left in buner

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Then why did you allow them to grow to the proportions that from slaves they became ur equals and now is some areas the masters ?

Regards

Because no one expected the problem, let alone its growth to the proportions it did, until it was too late, as well as the constitutional hindrances and agreements with the tribes on PA deployment.

Declassified State Department cables and U.S. intelligence reports describe the use of Taliban terrorist training areas in Afghanistan by Pakistani-supported militants in Kashmir, as well as Pakistan's covert effort to supply Pashtun troops from its tribal regions to the Taliban cause in Afghanistan-effectively forging and reinforcing Pashtun bonds across the border and consolidating the Taliban's severe form of Islam throughout Pakistan's frontier region.

Also published today are documents linking Harakat ul-Ansar, a militant Kashmiri group funded directly by the government of Pakistan, [Doc 10] to terrorist training camps shared by Osama bin Laden in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan.

What does this have to do with the growth of the Taliban in FATA after the US invasion of Afghanistan?

As far as I can tell, this deals with the Pakistani support for the Taliban during the Afghan civil war, for which I see no reason to apologize, given the facts known and dynamics of that time.

 

[wtf]

Always Neutral:

The rise of the Taliban insurgency in Pakistan is directly related to the US invasion of Afghanistan - trying to argue 'media presence' as an explanation for that is really disingenuous.

The media was not covering the creation of Taliban groups, the killings of hundreds of Tribal elders, surging recruitment and attacks from a decade ago - all of this happened post US invasion. It became regular front page news in Pakistan when the backlash against the PA deployment turned into regular suicide bombings and attacks on PA/FC soldiers.

The catalyst for the Taliban expansion in Pakistan was the US invasion - that is clear.

The creation of Taliban was certainly reported in Indian press, and with great alarm. The destruction of Bamiyan Budha was front page news on Indian and (some) US media. Taliban was not created after 2001, it was already armed with Stinger missiles and tanks by then - Indian media reported that India could not rescue its hijacked plane because there were tanks and Stinger missiles with Taliban - there were even pictures in the press.
A link from UK paper with specific mention of stingers and the word Taliban
Indians harden line as hijack goes on | World news | The Guardian
(Sorry for lack of Indian link, it is a pain to search news from 1999).

I think this is a case of stirring up a hornets nest. As long as Afghanistan was a good strategic buffer, everything was good for Pakistan and nobody reported it. Then Al Qaeda went and hit US and then US responded with force. The hornets flew and flew straight into Pakistan. US is getting bitten, but their aim is to destroy the nest where it is (to avoid another attack on homeland). Pakistan on the other hand seems surprised.

While I am on animal analogies a better one is snakes. When it starts raining and their burrows get filled, the snakes come out and move to dry streets. Anybody walking along will get bitten. It would be wrong to blame the rains for the snakes - the rains did not create them. It would also be a wrong thing to wait around discussing if it was a good idea to have cleared the shrubs and burrows in summer or to start a survey of snake sightings in summer. The right thing to do is to try and get rid of the snakes as soon as possible.

 

[Always Neutral]

Dude seriously are you kidding me, pray tell me who funded the so called jihad during the soviet era and pray tell me who encouraged the madrassa culture and to prepare people against the soviet aggression.

Saudi Arabia but its important to see who carried out the distribution and their religious indoctrination. Pakistan right ?

Regards

 

[wtf]

Because no one expected the problem, let alone its growth to the proportions it did, until it was too late, as well as the constitutional hindrances and agreements with the tribes on PA deployment.

What does this have to do with the growth of the Taliban in FATA after the US invasion of Afghanistan?

As far as I can tell, this deals with the Pakistani support for the Taliban during the Afghan civil war, for which I see no reason to apologize, given the facts known and dynamics of that time.

The reports describe the period from 90's up until 2001-02. You have no reason to apologize, but maybe turn down the criticism of US for the current problems a little.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The creation of Taliban was certainly reported in Indian press, and with great alarm. The destruction of Bamiyan Budha was front page news on Indian and (some) US media. Taliban was not created after 2001, it was already armed with Stinger missiles and tanks by then - Indian media reported that India could not rescue its hijacked plane because there were tanks and Stinger missiles with Taliban - there were even pictures in the press.

WTF - you are mixing two different issues - the Taliban in Afghanistan, and the Taliban in Pakistan.

The rise of the Taliban in Pakistan started after the US invasion of Afghanistan.

 

[third eye]

Can you please enlighten us all what is the connection with India in this regard because i simply did not get your logic or was it an attempt to derail the thread.

Perusal of post # 35 will enlighten you.

 

[Always Neutral]

Because no one expected the problem, let alone its growth to the proportions it did, until it was too late, as well as the constitutional hindrances and agreements with the tribes on PA deployment.

What does this have to do with the growth of the Taliban in FATA after the US invasion of Afghanistan?

As far as I can tell, this deals with the Pakistani support for the Taliban during the Afghan civil war, for which I see no reason to apologize, given the facts known and dynamics of that time.

Yes it has. The Afghan taliban was one more important pawn in resolving the Kashmir issue in the long run. So most of your planners took it as necessary evil and allowed them to flourish.

Regards

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

The reports describe the period from 90's up until 2001-02.

That was mu point - it is unrelated to the discussion of the Pakistani situation.

You have no reason to apologize, but maybe turn down the criticism of US for the current problems a little.

I am pointing out that the US invasion caused the growth of the Taliban in Pakistan - there is nothing to 'turn down' here. This is pretty much fact.

Whether the US had other options, should have followed other options, what Pakistan should have done, is another matter that I am not broaching at this point.

 

[wtf]

What exactly did you see in my post that you refer to as an attempt to start a flame war.?

I don't think anyone attempted to start a flame war, just that the thread deteriorated into one slowly because there were claims being made without evidence.

For ex: Taliban was not created as a political force until after 1993-94. Taliban was under attack from US from 1996 or so (USS Cole incident etc.). Their regime was not recognized by US government - nobody except Pakistan, UAE and Saudi did (Islamic Emirate of Afghanistan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia) . So why did you claim that Taliban was recognized by US ?

 

[IceCold]

Saudi Arabia but its important to see who carried out the distribution and their religious indoctrination. Pakistan right ?

Regards

Ok and on who's consent? We don't go too far tell me how did stingers ended up with Taliban?