Buddhism - Declined or Brutalized in the land of its birth?

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Never came across this term. Read a lot of military books - but never came across this.
Is it genetic? Since you mentioned half Arab...

High IQ Indians of course have better battle IQ..but on that day in March,the Marathas failed to send their best to the east..Just like they failed to send their best commanders to Panipat


High Battle IQ and Half-Arab ancestries are unrelated in my mind, if that's what you want to know..I just put that in as a piece of information

 

[itsanufy]

I have always tried to find out the exact barbarism of Mahratta forces in Islamic Bengal. I have never found one except for this poem. Do you have some famous massacres or razed city/villages list?

And no. I am not Bengali.


Stick to this line or something similar to this. You will be the next Indian Think Tank soon.

The repeated Maratha raids proved disastrous for Bengal. The untold miseries of the people were so severe that the incident came to be referred to in a popular lullaby. The repeated failure of crops added to the miseries of the people. The burning of villages by Maratha raiders struck terror in the minds of the people, which in turn led to large-scale migration to the districts east of the Ganges, where the density of population increased, causing various economic problems. The economic effects sapped the financial strength of the Bengal nawab, which in turn led to the disaster, which was to befall his successor in the near future.
http://www.indhistory.com/maratha-bengal.html
Google you will find lots of articles. Bankura, Midnapore, Purulia districts are wrost affected.
Please note they raided Western part of Bengal which was Hindu majority. Lot of folklores

 

[The_Showstopper]

The repeated Maratha raids proved disastrous for Bengal. The untold miseries of the people were so severe that the incident came to be referred to in a popular lullaby. The repeated failure of crops added to the miseries of the people. The burning of villages by Maratha raiders struck terror in the minds of the people, which in turn led to large-scale migration to the districts east of the Ganges, where the density of population increased, causing various economic problems. The economic effects sapped the financial strength of the Bengal nawab, which in turn led to the disaster, which was to befall his successor in the near future.
http://www.indhistory.com/maratha-bengal.html
Google you will find lots of articles. Bankura, Midnapore, Purulia districts are wrost affected.
Please note they raided Western part of Bengal which was Hindu majority. Lot of folklores

An excerpt I found from an article

The Marathas first invaded Bengal in 1742. Of their behaviour, the New Cambridge History of India tells us that “all authorities, both Indian and European are agreed”. A contemporary writer calls them “slayers of pregnant women and infants” and Sarkar has recorded their gang-rape of Hindu women, inexplicably stuffing the mouths of their victims with dust and breaking their arms and tying them behind their backs. The only Indian to try and protect his subjects against the Marathas incidentally, was the Mughal governor Ali Vardi Khan.

Source: http://blogs.timesofindia.indiatime...t-hindu-nationalist-thats-only-in-the-movies/

 

[SarthakGanguly]

The repeated Maratha raids proved disastrous for Bengal. The untold miseries of the people were so severe that the incident came to be referred to in a popular lullaby. The repeated failure of crops added to the miseries of the people. The burning of villages by Maratha raiders struck terror in the minds of the people, which in turn led to large-scale migration to the districts east of the Ganges, where the density of population increased, causing various economic problems. The economic effects sapped the financial strength of the Bengal nawab, which in turn led to the disaster, which was to befall his successor in the near future.
http://www.indhistory.com/maratha-bengal.html
Google you will find lots of articles. Bankura, Midnapore, Purulia districts are wrost affected.
Please note they raided Western part of Bengal which was Hindu majority. Lot of folklores

I have heard this very frequently.
I did not find any references in that link.
Any books by historians? J. Sarkar? Romilla Thapars will also do. Not Guha, though.

I will tell you what I am looking for.

List/name of Towns, villages looted/sacked/burnt to the ground.
Casualty list - The High IQ Alivardi Khan Govt. must have done some analysis based on which they decided to become a vassal state of the Mahrattas.
If the Mahrattas did not reach the capital (Murshidabad area) - why did the Nawabs surrender and decide to pay such a huge ransom yearly to the Maratha forces?
What were the forces (under whose command) that raided Bengal? I know they are known as Bargis. But the Marathas kept meticulous records (as did the failing Mughal empire). Who was the leader/officer in charge even nominally?

Marathas failed to send their best to the east

Ok. So who was the Maratha commander on the Eastern Front?
What was the Order of Battle of the two forces? (Nawab of Bengal Sultanate and the (Maratha)Hindu Samrajya)

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Ok. So who was the Maratha commander on the Eastern Front?
What was the Order of Battle of the two forces? (Nawab of Bengal Sultanate and the (Maratha)Hindu Samrajya)

the relevant pages of Wikipedia as well as the life history page of Ali Vardi Khan are good starts, then change over to RC Mazumder

 

[SarthakGanguly]

the relevant pages of Wikipedia as well as the life history page of Ali Vardi Khan are good starts, then change over to RC Mazumder

Which chapter of RC Mazumder. I don't have it now with me. Pls provide if possible.
Wiki gave me this reference -
ড. মহম্মদ আব্দুর রহিম. বাংলাদেশের ইতিহাস. আলীবর্দী ও মারাঠা আক্রমণ. পৃ. ২৯৭. (What does it say?)

What is interesting is this.
'In order to counter the eminent threat Alivardi Khan rallied a Mughal Army of nearly 10,000 troops also consisting of conscripts such as Abyssinian Sailors and Georgian Qizilbash. Alivardi Khan then informed the Mughal Emperor Muhammad Shah of the invasion and rode ceaselessly for almost three days towards the ruins of Bardhaman where the Marathas established occupation.'
- This does not provide any reference. But taking at face value - since you say/imply that the Hindu regions of Bengal was invaded - why were Turkiye Muslims recruited to defend Bengal?
- Orissa was lost by Adivardi Khan in 1751 to the Marathas. Why don't they have similar stories of Maratha oppression(do they? please check...)?
- Why did the Sultanate agree to paying the tribute to the Marathas?
- It says Bardhaman was ruined and razed - but the history of Burdwan (right?) makes no mention of this incident/s.

I have a hypothesis.

The Maratha invasions probably had a severe psychological impact on the Muslim ruling classes and Bengal being Muslim majority state - the effects were felt strongly there. Orissa being totally Hindu either did not care being part of the Maratha empire or welcomed it.

What do you think?

Also since this topic needs a story from the Islami perspective I will invite @The_Showstopper to provide references. He beats all others when asked to point out Hindu/Buddhist and even Jain atrocities.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Which chapter of RC Mazumder. I don't have it now with me. Pls provide if possible.
Wiki gave me this reference -
ড. মহম্মদ আব্দুর রহিম. বাংলাদেশের ইতিহাস. আলীবর্দী ও মারাঠা আক্রমণ. পৃ. ২৯৭. (What does it say?)

What is interesting is this.
'In order to counter the eminent threat Alivardi Khan rallied a Mughal Army of nearly 10,000 troops also consisting of conscripts such as Abyssinian Sailors and Georgian Qizilbash. Alivardi Khan then informed the Mughal Emperor Muhammad Shah of the invasion and rode ceaselessly for almost three days towards the ruins of Bardhaman where the Marathas established occupation.'
- This does not provide any reference. But taking at face value - since you say/imply that the Hindu regions of Bengal was invaded - why were Turkiye Muslims recruited to defend Bengal?
- Orissa was lost by Adivardi Khan in 1751 to the Marathas. Why don't they have similar stories of Maratha oppression(do they? please check...)?
- Why did the Sultanate agree to paying the tribute to the Marathas?
- It says Bardhaman was ruined and razed - but the history of Burdwan (right?) makes no mention of this incident/s.

I have a hypothesis.

The Maratha invasions probably had a severe psychological impact on the Muslim ruling classes and Bengal being Muslim majority state - the effects were felt strongly there. Orissa being totally Hindu either did not care being part of the Maratha empire or welcomed it.

What do you think?

Also since this topic needs a story from the Islami perspective I will invite @The_Showstopper to provide references. He beats all others when asked to point out Hindu/Buddhist and even Jain atrocities.

I am from Bardhaman..Bardhaman was never razed in the history of the existence of the Bardhaman Raj..the Raj is pretty well known for sheltering the Hindu population from the excesses of Mughal empire through their deft manouverings...I think your observations are true..would love them to be fleshed out more....the only thing that marks the Battle of Bardhaman as an interesting checkpoint of Indian history is the very innovative use of artillery on movable platforms driven by Bullocks/Oxes

 

[SarthakGanguly]

I am from Bardhaman..Bardhaman was never razed in the history of the existence of the Bardhaman Raj..the Raj is pretty well known for sheltering the Hindu population from the excesses of Mughal empire through their deft manouverings...I think your observations are true..would love them to be fleshed out more....the only thing that marks the Battle of Bardhaman as an interesting checkpoint of Indian history is the very innovative use of artillery on movable platforms driven by Bullocks/Oxes

Ok. Actually the post prior to yours mentioned an attack there and its supposed razing, raping, looting etc. Of course since it was posted by The Showstopper (and written by a journalist - The Aakaar Ahmed Patel) I took it with a glass, nay, a bucket of salt. But still before dismissing anything, it is important to check the facts first.

The psychological impact in the 1740s could not be ruled out. The Mughals still ruled Delhi. Ten years later they will lose it to the Marathas (and then to the Brits). But till the 1740 to 50 period the ruling classes probably still believed themselves to be untouchable by any native force.

As for the artillery is concerned - the Mughals introduced modern artillery to India - and many local kingdoms perished to such novel firepower. The Marathas, Nizams and Mysore also made good use of them - at times with French support.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

@SarthakGanguly Now can you please explain to me why Rajputs could not achieve what Marathas achieved? The breakneck speed of empire creation by Marathas is monumental and as noted by famous Quoran Balaji Vishwanathan, something never before or since seen in Indian history....but that Marathas achived something like that on the backs of inferior horses and material culture, compared to the Rajputs, leaves me a bit underwhelmed regarding Rajputs

 

[SarthakGanguly]

existence of the Bardhaman Raj

Nice. Do they still exist - like nominally the family and all?

@SarthakGanguly Now can you please explain to me why Rajputs could not achieve what Marathas achieved? The breakneck speed of empire creation by Marathas is monumental and as noted by famous Quoran Balaji Vishwanathan, something never before or since seen in Indian history....but that Marathas achived something like that on the backs of inferior horses and material culture, compared to the Rajputs, leaves me a bit underwhelmed regarding Rajputs

I am not very well versed with the Rajput history. But as far as I have seen is that the lack of Unity and competing clans played a major role.
The Peshwas for instance were comfortable even with a Confederacy. The Rajputs never had a Unified Command Structure. If you see set piece battle between the Mughals and the Rajputs initially - you will find that the Mughals won most - but only just. Each Rajput kingdom were subdued - one at a time.

The Marathas also broke down into feudatories - but only after they had no choice - after the 3rd Anglo Maratha War when the Marathas were legally forced to practically cease to exist as an independent entity.

The unification of Rajput states into the single Rajputana is Patel's creation. Not even the Mughals managed that. Not even with Man Singh.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

Nice. Do they still exist - like nominally the family and all?

Yes, but most of them moved out to the US I think..Ancestors of our family used to be bodyguards in their service.
We also knew the family of the royal priest in their service.
They also had some remarkable lands and properties for being a small Lord, most of which went towards the creation of University of Bardhaman...they used to have a proper Huge Leopard's/Tiger's pen , with huge space to roam around..........There is proper beauty in Bardhaman, but most of it remains hidden due to the squalor

 

[SarthakGanguly]

Yes, but most of them moved out to the US I think..Ancestors of our family used to be bodyguards in their service.
We also knew the family of the royal priest in their service.
They also had some remarkable lands and properties for being a small Lord, most of which went towards the creation of University of Bardhaman...they used to have a proper Huge Leopard's/Tiger's pen , with huge space to roam around..........There is proper beauty in Bardhaman, but most of it remains hidden due to the squalor

Wow! You are almost a blue blood yourself.
I went there during my days at NIT Dgp. I actually liked the chaos in the town itself. There is a certain warmth to the place.

 

[Suriya]

Orissa was lost by Adivardi Khan in 1751 to the Marathas. Why don't they have similar stories of Maratha oppression(do they? please check...)?

None reported in history book or even whispered in folklore .

 

[Gadkari]

Buddhism does not need a Creator...That was the genius of the Buddha...a precursor to modern Scientific Atheism...Buddhism is different from any other philosophical system you know with the possible exception of Scientific Materialism

You are Wrong.

Since Buddha was a Hindu who believed Sankya philosophy and practices, his teaching is the Sankya philosophy of Hinduism. The practice of Astanga Yoga is explained in the Buddhist book Yogachara.

But his teachings also teach about Brahma, and Brahma loka. He talks about Deva and Deva loka. He even talks about HELL.

He teaches about MahaBrahma and about Shankara.

Before we take this further, let us know which branch of Buddhism you subscribe to.

 

[Juggernaut_Flat_Plane_V8]

You are Wrong.

Since Buddha was a Hindu who believed Sankya philosophy and practices, his teaching is the Sankya philosophy of Hinduism. The practice of Astanga Yoga is explained in the Buddhist book Yogachara.

But his teachings also teach about Brahma, and Brahma loka. He talks about Deva and Deva loka. He even talks about HELL.

He teaches about MahaBrahma and about Shankara.

Before we take this further, let us know which branch of Buddhism you subscribe to.

Theravada and STRICTLY the Pali Canon..and among that only the Vinaya and Sutta Pitakas are considered coming down from Buddha.......There is No Creator God in Buddhism..Brahma is a God in Buddhism...if you can find me ONE SINGLE LINE from the Pali Canon (Vinaya and Sutta Pitakas) that says Buddha considers Brahma the Creator of the Universe/Reality , then I will retract all my statements and say that eventhough I am a Buddhist, I have severe faulty knowledge


@Gadkari If we are going to have a debate, we have to stick to the ground rules..and that is limit the discussion ONLY to the Pali Canon--and that too the First two Pitakas as Abhidhamma Pitaka is not considered the utterings of the Historical Buddha