Britain will lose by criticizing China on Tibet issue

[gambit]

So that a big negative on taking that stick out of your ***. Alright I gave it a shot.

You're wrong. Get your facts straight, Van Riper's little gambit (hah) happened just pre-OIF Millennium Challenge 2002 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Here's the article I quoted
Wake-up call | World news | The Guardian

Your argument here is that aircraft carriers are obsolete, or at least useless against alerted and prepared defenses. You brought up what Van Riper did. I have a copy of Van Riper's 1996 work and Desert Storm was in 1991. In the Preface, Van Riper said...

Operation Desert Storm confirmed that the decide, detect, deliver and assess methodology works. The process is described without tying it to specific hardware that will eventually become dated. Targeting methodology is not new or revolutionary. It consists of time-tested techniques organized in a systematic framework. Emerging joint targeting doctrinal concepts and other Services' targeting considerations are also presented.

The point here is that in order to defeat a US aircraft carrier battle group, it is not enough that the defender be alerted and well prepared, but that the defender must be well versed in US battle plans that went beyond the hardware that the US may bring to the fight. With that knowledge, particularly of how the US would target the enemy's positions, Van Riper with numerically inferior forces was able to outmaneuver a superior opponent. So yes, not only do I have my facts, I have the documented facts and the time to understand it.

 

[amit27]

LOL you must be joking...

China's economy is SEVERAL times larger than the UK economy already...

China has the 2nd largest economy in the world, Britain is only number 6...

Like I said, I admire Britain a lot, but they are losing strategic power.

They follow America around without any argument, even into wars. They have no power in the relationship.

In the EU, both Germany and France have larger economies and more political power, the UK isn't even part of the Eurozone currency.

Britain has a great history but is sliding downwards, unless they finally stand up to America or the EU, and stop following others like they did with George Bush.

Yes you have a bigger economy but we have a higher GDP per capita $32,798 (2009) which is what matters.

Tell me after USA who is the biggest defence exporter? it is UK
we have the worlds best companies like BAE systems, Rolls Royce engines. Yes we went to Iraq but not for USA we had our own reasons like getting British companies lucrative oil tender contracts.

Nope your wrong UK is a member of the UN security council so we have more political power then Germany, as for your comment on the Euro who said we want to join in the first place? do you know the state of eurozone economies at the moment? ever heard of the greek financial crises where German tax payers had to bail them out the Euro is a joke!

 

[chauism]

Yes you have a bigger economy but we have a higher GDP per capita $32,798 (2009) which is what matters.

Tell me after USA who is the biggest defence exporter? it is UK
we have the worlds best companies like BAE systems, Rolls Royce engines. Yes we went to Iraq but not for USA we had our own reasons like getting British companies lucrative oil tender contracts.

Nope your wrong UK is a member of the UN security council so we have more political power then Germany, as for your comment on the Euro who said we want to join in the first place? do you know the state of eurozone economies at the moment? ever heard of the greek financial crises where German tax payers had to bail them out the Euro is a joke!

For the arm export, you might want to check your data again. It was ranked 5th for most of the time, after US, Russian, Germany and France.


Current Rank Supplier 2000 2001 2002 2003 2004 2005 2006 2007 2008 2009
1 United States 7220 5694 5091 5596 6750 6600 7394 7658 6090 6795
2 Russia 3985 6011 5773 5202 6260 5321 6156 5243 6026 4469
3 Germany 1603 821 892 1697 1067 1875 2510 3002 2499 2473
4 France 1055 1270 1308 1288 2194 1633 1577 2342 1831 1851
5 United Kingdom 1484 1257 915 617 1180 915 808 987 1027 1024
6 Spain 46 7 120 156 56 108 757 565 603 925
7 China 272 496 515 632 282 306 599 412 544 870
8 Israel 354 360 414 358 612 315 282 379 271 760
9 Netherlands 280 203 243 342 208 583 1221 1322 554 608
10 Italy 189 217 400 312 214 743 525 706 424 588
11 Sweden 306 830 185 515 305 537 417 367 457 353
12 Switzerland 176 193 157 174 250 267 306 324 467 270
13 Ukraine 288 661 244 430 202 281 557 799 269 214
14 Canada 110 129 170 225 268 235 231 343 236 177
15 South Korea 8 165 N/A 104 29 48 94 228 80 163
Stockholm International Peace Research Institute

Off Topic

Just out of curiosity here, for UK's auto industry including prestige brand like Aston Martin, Bentley, Jaguar, Land Rover, Lotus, MG Rover and Rolls Royce, who own them now?

 

[amit27]

This is a list of the ten countries with the highest defence budgets for the year 2008. The information is from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute [10]. Total world spending amounted to $1.464 trillion USD in 2008.

That article is based on 2008 figures its now 2010 and UK arms exports have surged it was just on the news today.

Britain's biggest defence company employs 40,400 people in the UK, former government defence research agency QinetiQ has 7,000 staff and Babcock, the engineering services company which recently bought VT Group, employs about 17,000. Defence is a £35bn industry and Britain is number two in the world for exports.

General Election 2010: Industry waits as parties war over defence policy - Telegraph

As for the Car industry in UK last time I checked Jaguar, Aston Martin etc still manufacture cars in Britian as to who owns the companies well we live in a globalised world does it really matter?

 

[chauism]

This is a list of the ten countries with the highest defence budgets for the year 2008. The information is from the Stockholm International Peace Research Institute [10]. Total world spending amounted to $1.464 trillion USD in 2008.

That article is based on 2008 figures its now 2010 and UK arms exports have surged it was just on the news today.

Britain's biggest defence company employs 40,400 people in the UK, former government defence research agency QinetiQ has 7,000 staff and Babcock, the engineering services company which recently bought VT Group, employs about 17,000. Defence is a £35bn industry and Britain is number two in the world for exports.

General Election 2010: Industry waits as parties war over defence policy - Telegraph

My data is from the year 2009. Check it again and cross reference with other countries as well. And still going from 1,024 million to Russia's 6,795 million will be too big a surge, won't you?

Defense spending has nothing to do with arms export, you can have the highest spending with no arms export like Japan.

Yes, UK has the second highest in military expenditure, but that is in NATO. In the world it is still ranked 4th in 2009 after US, China and France. In case you don't know, France chose not to join in NATO.

Rank Country 2009 Spending $ b. Share of 2008 GDP % World Share %
1 United States 661 4.3 43
2 China 100 2.0 6.6
3 France 63.9 2.3 4.2
3 United Kingdom 58.3 2.5 3.8
5 Russian Federation 53.3 3.5 3.5
6 Japan 51.0 0.9 3.3
7 Germany 45.6 1.3 3.0
8 Saudi Arabia 41.3 8.2 2.7
9 India 36.3 2.6 2.4
10 Italy 35.8 1.7 2.3
11 Brazil 26.1 1.5 1.7
12 South Korea 24.1 2.8 1.6
13 Canada 19.2 1.3 1.3
14 Australia 19.0 1.8 1.2
15 Spain 18.3 1.2 1.2


List of countries by military expenditures

As for the Car industry in UK last time I checked Jaguar, Aston Martin etc still manufacture cars in Britian as to who owns the companies well we live in a globalised world does it really matter?

Very valid opinion, but ownership means who gets to boss who right?
So let's say the ownship of Falklands is not important because it is still the same people who are living there.

 

[amit27]

I know where your data comes from I checked it was based on 2008 figures and the latest Uk arms exports shows that Uk is no 2nd only to USA when it comes to exports

Britain's biggest defence company employs 40,400 people in the UK, former government defence research agency QinetiQ has 7,000 staff and Babcock, the engineering services company which recently bought VT Group, employs about 17,000. Defence is a £35bn industry and Britain is number two in the world for exports.


I dont think those figures take into the account the 72 Eurofighter deal to Saudi Arabia.

 

[chauism]

I know where your data comes from I checked it was based on 2008 figures and the latest Uk arms exports shows that Uk is no 2nd only to USA when it comes to exports

Britain's biggest defence company employs 40,400 people in the UK, former government defence research agency QinetiQ has 7,000 staff and Babcock, the engineering services company which recently bought VT Group, employs about 17,000. Defence is a £35bn industry and Britain is number two in the world for exports.

I think you were looking into the wrong database(I know which one you are looking at), there is one for 2009

Anyways, here is a revised data for you.

World's largest arms exporters

You can use some data to prove your point instead of using just something from the newspaper.

Also maybe you can ask the author of that article where he got his data from, and also for his credential as a journalist as well.

 

[chauism]

I dont think those figures take into the account the 72 Eurofighter deal to Saudi Arabia.

DASA owns the same amount of share as British Aerospace, even if it take Eurofighter into account, Germany will still be ahead of UK, as its arms export is more than twice as large as UK in 2009.

 

[amit27]

I think you were looking into the wrong database(I know which one you are looking at), there is one for 2009

Anyways, here is a revised data for you.

World's largest arms exporters

You can use some data to prove your point instead of using just something from the newspaper.

Also maybe you can ask the author of that article where he got his data from, and also for his credential as a journalist as well.

I was watching Sky news today and David Cameron was in USA and it mentioned that UK is now the 2nd biggest defence exporter, but these figures change depending on new contracts awarded. Ill try finding the video if i can and posting it I was shocked like you i never thought UK was 2nd biggest exporter I always assumed it was Russia but it might be to do with new deals signed by BAE+ Rolls Royce etc.

 

[amit27]

DASA owns the same amount of share as British Aerospace, even if it take Eurofighter into account, Germany will still be ahead of UK, as its arms export is more than twice as large as UK in 2009.

No your wrong on this front the Eurofighter deal was signed by BAE systems it all depends who is fronting the deal for example Germany will be fronting the EF should it win the MRCA deal with India.



BAE Systems wins Saudi Arabia contract to service Typhoon fighter planes
BAE Systems, the UK defence manufacturer under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, has won a three-year contract to service Typhoon fighter planes sold by Britain to Saudi Arabia. The deal could be worth more than £500m, according to industry sources


The company won contracts worth more than £1bn to service Typhoon and Harrier jets for the RAF earlier this year.

BAE will also have a share of maintenance work on the F35 joint strike fighter, which is ramping up production over the coming years.

BAE Systems builds the Eurofighter Typhoon at its site in Warton in Lancashire, in partnership with three other European countries - Germany, Spain and Italy. EADS and Finmeccanica are the other defence manufacturers working on the plane.

The consortium is chasing export orders now that the first phase of the final tranche of orders from the partner nations has been agreed on. Japan, India and Switzerland are among the countries where the companies hope to win orders.

BAE is also aiming to win further plane orders from Saudi Arabia.

 

[amit27]

UK tops world table of weapons sales | World news | The Guardian


UK tops world table of weapons sales Controversial deal with Saudi Arabia catapults Britain to top of last year's world arms export league

 

[chauism]

UK tops world table of weapons sales | World news | The Guardian


UK tops world table of weapons sales Controversial deal with Saudi Arabia catapults Britain to top of last year's world arms export league

Interesting, the article was from 2008, and yet those numbers did not show up on 2009's arms export's report. Huh.....

It is not that I don't think telegraph is a creditible news outlet. It is just I don't really trust with any journalist with numbers and how to place them. Anyways, let me do more research on that.

 

[chauism]

No your wrong on this front the Eurofighter deal was signed by BAE systems it all depends who is fronting the deal for example Germany will be fronting the EF should it win the MRCA deal with India.



BAE Systems wins Saudi Arabia contract to service Typhoon fighter planes
BAE Systems, the UK defence manufacturer under investigation by the Serious Fraud Office, has won a three-year contract to service Typhoon fighter planes sold by Britain to Saudi Arabia. The deal could be worth more than £500m, according to industry sources


The company won contracts worth more than £1bn to service Typhoon and Harrier jets for the RAF earlier this year.

BAE will also have a share of maintenance work on the F35 joint strike fighter, which is ramping up production over the coming years.

BAE Systems builds the Eurofighter Typhoon at its site in Warton in Lancashire, in partnership with three other European countries - Germany, Spain and Italy. EADS and Finmeccanica are the other defence manufacturers working on the plane.

The consortium is chasing export orders now that the first phase of the final tranche of orders from the partner nations has been agreed on. Japan, India and Switzerland are among the countries where the companies hope to win orders.

BAE is also aiming to win further plane orders from Saudi Arabia.

First of all those service contract is not over one year, but over many years. The payment won't be up front either.

It doesn't matter who signs the deal of Typhoon, the money is still distributed to all its shareholders, otherwise countries like Spain will probably never get a cent from Typhoon's export. When was the last time you heard Spain had a big export contract.

 

[amit27]

Ill be honest with you Im as confused as you I always assumed Russia was no2 in arms exports then i heard UK is 2nd only to USA. Please let me know if you find anything else ill try digging too.

 

[chauism]

Ill be honest with you Im as confused as you I always assumed Russia was no2 in arms exports then i heard UK is 2nd only to USA. Please let me know if you find anything else ill try digging too.

Actually don't bother as I tried. All the reports have different values. There are million ways to account one's arm exports, and there many countries actually try to hide their arms import/export. The arms export has always been a controversial subject internationally. Unless you can get the report from UK's Parliament and the exact contracts from each arm exporter and private arms dealers(legal and illegal), there is no way we will know the true volume.