BrahMos From On High

[gambit]

This is gonna be my last hit in educating you.

And you failed to show us anything new with this copy/paste attempt.

 

[dbc]

Than can we assume stealth aircraft such as the B-1 an F-22 are also visible? BTW do you visit any BMW forums, considering you drive an M3?

Yes it is visible, but like all things visibility is also relative

Well no, I don't know a thing about M3's. Couldn't careless to be honest..

 

[gambit]

I dont buy this theory. Brahmos block-II got new updates that distiguish original targets and dummies.

How? A chaff bloom can be thousands of square km to a radar receiver. The point of a chaff bloom is to create a condition where it is %99.999 improbable, not impossible, for a radar receiver to distinguish between bodies whose radar returns rose above background noise. In other words, BEFORE you can distinguish what is 'real' from what is 'decoy' you must be able to see both. But if all you have is a blanket field of noise in front of you...

It can go against the initially locked-on target unless untill a mid-course guidance tells it to go after another.

Fine...But if it cannot find any target at all...Then what...???

Brahmos got ECM and ECCM and it is highly impossible to jam while scoring its hit.

Meaningless statement.

And Brahmos hitting a ship scenario,its onboard sensors make sure the hit takes place just above the water level and at the ships weekest point.Its about the capability and accuracy of the missile,but not hush bush theories that so often retained from fan boys.

Please...From a radar engineering perspective, impacting a target above the waterline is no big deal. Water have different radar return characteristics than steel so it is fairly easy to electronically separate the two. As for the ship's weakest point, ANY ship's weakest point is...drum roll please...BELOW the waterline...

It known that Naval Block-II upgrades got the similar autonamous guidance system like Granit. Thats the reason why CEO S.Pillai hell bent on saying that a salvo of 9 can bring down 3 frigates/destroyers under and damn critical environment.
Under a 3 missile salvo,alike Granits one missile flys high while others at sea level initial going after the locked targets. But the one flying at altitude guides the 2 flying at sea level.It updates the courses all the time,though the ship is manueverable.I bet even though E-3D or other over the horison radars get these 3 painted say at 25 nautical miles away,there is no chance of interception.by the time a launch sequence initiates, missiles hits the target.

For the highlighted, when you have such a short distance between launch and target points, then of course the odds of deploying seduction/distraction defense in time will be extremely compressed given the speed of the missile.

However...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

If we insert an AWACS altitude of 5,000 meters and ship altitude of 10 meters, a reasonable above waterline figure, we have the AWACS radar horizon of over 300 km and its visual horizon of over 260 km. The ship is only for illustrative purpose but the AWACS radar horizon is 360 deg, meaning the AWACS can see the incoming missile pretty much from the time it was launched. The fleet will be ready.

Our main point here is low RCS which unfotunately we have been discussing for the last 2 days and the US people are hell bent in accepting the capability while they want us to accept that F-22 is stealthy

The F-22's RCS has been accepted at that of an insect. We do not know anything about the Brahless.

 

[gambit]

You mean, a Stinger missile can hit down a Tomahawk because Tomahawk is slower than Brahmos?

What you are talking about is a tail-on chase situation. An 'interception' usually imply a head-on meet. If successful, the kinetic energy form the combined closing velocity of both projectiles will destroy both.

Even though American rockets are based on German design, I still think USA is much ahead in rocket technology than Asian countries. Russians will remain masters though.

So what if von Braun came from Germany? Are you saying that since his arrival von Braun was involved in every missile? Can I say that India's automobile designs are based upon Ford's Model T? See how absurd your line of argument can get?

 

[gambit]

I have really no idea why hordes of US netizens pop up and start defending that their technology is 10 yrs,100 yrs ahead of soviets,while at many instances US failed to catchup with soviets/Russians.

Such as...???

Dont tell me that GE aero engine tech is not russians.

And yet it have been the Soviets who have been behind US.

Mig-25 was a compromised theory...

You do not know what you are talking about and are just throwing up words.

...and there is nothing proud in sabotaging a fighter,...

We sabotaged nothing. We disassembled the MIG-25 and found it overall inferior to the F-15 and F-16.

Even till today US struggles to matchup with Russian SAMs,Satellites,Launch vehicles,AAMs,Submarines,....... what not?

Yeah...Sure...Care to give a few examples...???

I neither have the time nor the intention to summarize how US got its so called technology from others.

Because you have nothing substantive. Ideas cannot be confined. The reason why the US is the world's leader in APPLIED science is because the US provides incentives, financial and/or else, for people to make use of their intellectual capital. Jealous?

Putting Us citizens on moon with a rocket made by a german???

Jealous?

Yes ,again and again this is what I am saying.Only people like you have the capability to conclude that a PAK-FA TD is not stealthier than F-22.Poor scientists and engineers who are working hard day and night bringing modifications to the TD.

They can work as hard as they want but the reality is that the higher the technological level, the greater the need for sophisticated tools and so far we have seen the Russians behind US.

Its only that Russians currently dont have money after soviet collpse, Else US would have became another china in copy catting Russian tech.

That 'Else' is an alternate universe. You are living in this one.

The bolded part doesnt need attestation from US or its netizens to prove that Russian got superior technologies.Its weapons and systems just proving that all way along.

Bull. I handled Soviet avionics myself. Even a drunken FAA inspector would not pass many of the stuff.

 

[dbc]

I would presume that all surface launched cruise missiles will have the "plume" at launch before jet's kick in and thus liable to detection as per your argument.

tomohawk...
YouTube - USS BUNKER HILL TOMAHAWK MISSILE LAUNCH.wmv
granit...
YouTube - Aircraft Carrier Killer Rocket Granit
babur...
YouTube - Babur Cruise Missile

This is nothing specific to Brahmos.

True, just guessing but the Tomahawk and Babur have greater range and the launch will likely occur beyond the detection range of Hawkeye. I don't know much about Babur but Tomahawk is a subsonic missiles capable of "lap of the earth" to the extreme. I believe newer blocks are designed to exploit gaps in radar coverage. AWACS will spot it as soon as it is within detection range.

To be honest I haven't done any research on subsonic cruise missiles but I'm sure Gambit will have an answer.

 

[gambit]

Good catch "my interesting friend" , plumes that are invisible to the naked eye are still visible to the radar due to a phenomenon known as stochastic Bragg scatter. As an example thermal plumes that cause turbulence especially during take off or landing is visible to the radar while it is invisible to the naked eye. Regardless the launch has been detected....you can't throw Mach 3 or "TRISONIC" energy into the universe and expect the universe not to notice

That is so well known...

Station Fire on Radar; Dry Thunderstorm

At times, smoke has been so dense from the Station fire north of Los Angeles that the plume has shown up on National Weather Service Doppler radars.

 

[gambit]

I would presume that all surface launched cruise missiles will have the "plume" at launch before jet's kick in and thus liable to detection as per your argument.

Depends on the launch method and radar horizon. If the launch is over the radar horizon then launch detection is not possible. If the launch is within radar horizon but the launch method is via extremely high steam pressure generator, then detection will be quite brief as the environment, especially at sea where there is already high water vapor content, will rapidly absorb the steam-type heat.

http://www.deagel.com/news/Northrop...Launch-System-for-KEI-Missile_n000005531.aspx

"The gas generator provides the energy needed for steam- or gas-launched missiles that will give KEI a land-based defensive capability that could be transitioned easily to sea-based platforms," noted Anthony Spehar, vice president and KEI program manager for Northrop Grumman's Space Technology sector. "The test measured chamber pressure, temperature and propellant burn duration, all of which were within expectations."

Chemically generated heat, such as from JP-4 or any rocket-type propellant will have residual heat for much longer.

 

[DMLA]

Depends on the launch method and radar horizon. If the launch is over the radar horizon then launch detection is not possible. If the launch is within radar horizon but the launch method is via extremely high steam pressure generator, then detection will be quite brief as the environment, especially at sea where there is already high water vapor content, will rapidly absorb the steam-type heat.

Northrop Grumman Testing Cold-Launch System for KEI Missile

Chemically generated heat, such as from JP-4 or any rocket-type propellant will have residual heat for much longer.

Ofcourse i meant "hot launch" systems. AFAIK, tomohawk, harpoon, babur, etc fall under the same category when launched from surface. Also, if I am not mistaken, Russians have a number of "cold launch" weapons including rif-m (sa-10 grumble - naval variant) sam and ss-n-26 cruise missile as well.

 

[DMLA]

True, just guessing but the Tomahawk and Babur have greater range and the launch will likely occur beyond the detection range of Hawkeye. I don't know much about Babur but Tomahawk is a subsonic missiles capable of "lap of the earth" to the extreme. I believe newer blocks are designed to exploit gaps in radar coverage. AWACS will spot it as soon as it is within detection range.

To be honest I haven't done any research on subsonic cruise missiles but I'm sure Gambit will have an answer.

I concur! wrt brahmos and air based assets, I would presume integration would be the key. For example, I am not sure if the P-8I's will be able to carry out tracking/ guidance for the system (depends on US and its willingness to allow integration).
I am not sure about the actual developments but reports did suggest longer ranged versions/ hypersonic versions of pj-10 in the making (P-15B destroyers are supposed to get hypersonic version). All I can say is that at present, it provides IN with a worthwhile capability.

 

[Mauryan]

Take note of the highlighted. It is instructive.

Why should the missile home in on the largest radar return when confronted with multiple radar returns? Because the assumption here is that the largest radar return is most likely a capital ship, like an aircraft carrier. However, if the fleet is forewarned by AWACS that there is an approaching hostile aircraft that has all the behaviorial characteristics of a cruise missile, then the fleet can deploy enough seduction/distraction chaff/flare defense to totally blanket the electronic view of the missile's seeker. Those chaff blooms qualifies as the largest radar return the missile will see, thereby misleading the missile.

You try to pretend to be smart by ignoring the fact which is a line ahead. that Isolated attacking scenario was for Block-I LACM sirji ,but NOT AShM.LACM variant didnt got the artifical intelligence(aka autonomous guidance and planning during a salvo mode and also distinguishing of priority targets)
Thats is why I said Brahmos AI is immune to ECM and ECCM. Brahmos not only got active seeker,but also passive one.You can bling the active seeker with Chaffs,but how can you avoid being painted by the passive seeker?(which is after the capital ships radar emission).But again, both these act in tandem.And in a salvo mode you are getting few more active and passive radars at different altitudes coming after the target ship/group.

And you failed to show us anything new with this copy/paste attempt.

My consideration is that ,putting in more energy is not worth in educating some stuborns who only consider that made in USA is a gods gift and is invincible.A copy paste from my old bookmarks better serves the purpose.

How? A chaff bloom can be thousands of square km to a radar receiver. The point of a chaff bloom is to create a condition where it is %99.999 improbable, not impossible, for a radar receiver to distinguish between bodies whose radar returns rose above background noise. In other words, BEFORE you can distinguish what is 'real' from what is 'decoy' you must be able to see both. But if all you have is a blanket field of noise in front of you...
.

That is were AI on brahmos comes into equation.

Fine...But if it cannot find any target at all...Then what...???

Yes... true...Capital ships around the word can sail at supersonic speeds to evade a incoming cruise missile.For Brahmos last 50 km is utmost crucial.Since it came to that (X,Y) only after the ships radar/Over the horizon aircraft guidance,it is absurd to say that the ship will be missing in just 300 sec......
If I have to buy your hypothetical scenario which is never gonna happen, the missile self detonates.

Meaningless statement.

Prove me wrong,instead of ranting.

Please...From a radar engineering perspective, impacting a target above the waterline is no big deal. Water have different radar return characteristics than steel so it is fairly easy to electronically separate the two. As for the ship's weakest point, ANY ship's weakest point is...drum roll please...BELOW the waterline...

ITs a big deal when it makes a see through hole from one side to the other right at the water level.And a 200kg warhead explosion on top of that will definitely make it a big deal making 200+ sailors and commanding officers run after their lives while the ship is sinking infraction of minutes.Watch some brahmos live testing videos ,how big deal it is gonna be making a hole to the high strength ship hull.

However...

Horizon calculator - radar and visual

If we insert an AWACS altitude of 5,000 meters and ship altitude of 10 meters, a reasonable above waterline figure, we have the AWACS radar horizon of over 300 km and its visual horizon of over 260 km. The ship is only for illustrative purpose but the AWACS radar horizon is 360 deg, meaning the AWACS can see the incoming missile pretty much from the time it was launched. The fleet will be ready.

Ya ya.....yeh
you can bring in AWACS sat based survivalance and everything to track down a brahmos.
The total time of flight is ~300 sec after launch.
Though sailing into the 300km ring of a US CBG is a hell of a job for any destroyer/frigate .But If I have to deal with US CBG,I wont be sending my capital ships,instead MKI loaded with Brahmos with MIG-29k escorts.But again,even AWACS and other radars track,you will be having just 20-25 secs when the missile reaches its terminal phase for sea skimming.I doubt if there is some thing that can intercept a sea skimming supersonic missile.

The F-22's RCS has been accepted at that of an insect. We do not know anything about the Brahless.

Been hearing this fanboy comparision since I was a kid.

What you are talking about is a tail-on chase situation. An 'interception' usually imply a head-on meet. If successful, the kinetic energy form the combined closing velocity of both projectiles will destroy both.

What you are talking is a typical Kinetic kill scenario.Not all interceptors use KV.But instead rely on warhead detonations with proximity fuses . Yes a tomahawk can even be chased by an aircraft and can be shot down with its 30mm/20mm gun saving AAM`s.

So what if von Braun came from Germany? Are you saying that since his arrival von Braun was involved in every missile? Can I say that India's automobile designs are based upon Ford's Model T? See how absurd your line of argument can get?

Now his argument isnt absurd.And we agree with the fact that India dont have the technological machinery to drive progress during its hay days of independance.But it is also a blatant fact that ,untill US got these germans, they dont even know how a missile would look like.Atleast Indians fired some salvos on brits during Tipus rein.

Such as...???

Dont you know?

We sabotaged nothing. We disassembled the MIG-25 and found it overall inferior to the F-15 and F-16.

Mig-25 ,F-15,F-16 are of different classes.
Lol...... but the return container was missing radar and missiles.

Yeah...Sure...Care to give a few examples...???

S-300PMU, S-400,topol-M,........
There were many soviet/russian firsts than compared to US.Who broke most of the aviation records?

Because you have nothing substantive. Ideas cannot be confined. The reason why the US is the world's leader in APPLIED science is because the US provides incentives, financial and/or else, for people to make use of their intellectual capital. Jealous?

you are just taking advantage of my laziness. will put things in a more clear perspective ,which might be an eye opener for you.

They can work as hard as they want but the reality is that the higher the technological level, the greater the need for sophisticated tools and so far we have seen the Russians behind US.

Which is why US got titanium moulding tools from soviets?

 

[gambit]

You try to pretend to be smart by ignoring the fact which is a line ahead. that Isolated attacking scenario was for Block-I LACM sirji ,but NOT AShM.LACM variant didnt got the artifical intelligence(aka autonomous guidance and planning during a salvo mode and also distinguishing of priority targets)
Thats is why I said Brahmos AI is immune to ECM and ECCM. Brahmos not only got active seeker,but also passive one.You can bling the active seeker with Chaffs,but how can you avoid being painted by the passive seeker?(which is after the capital ships radar emission).But again, both these act in tandem.And in a salvo mode you are getting few more active and passive radars at different altitudes coming after the target ship/group.

Now it is clear to all that you are talking utter nonsense. A passive seeker is exactly what it does -- passive. There are no emissions. Radar detection is a two-part operation: active and passive. If the radar system is a mono-static type, then the antenna goes active to transmit then passive to listen. If the radar system is bi-static, then there are two, possibly more, antennas. One antenna will transmit while the others receive, meaning listen which is being passive. There is no such thing as 'being painted by the passive seeker'. There is no such thing as a 'passive seeker'. A seeker head contain the sensor assembly, which may be only passive, such as infrared, or the head can contain an active sensor assembly, which would be radar. But all would be inside the seeker head. When you are so desperate that you had to spout this kind of nonsense, there is no need for me or anyone else to continue with the rest of your argument.

 

[ratnas]

So is the reason why the skin of Brahmos was built with special titanium composites to keep the temperatures down while distributing the whole skin temp .


.
Do you have a figure in mind ,like what could be the maximum temperature that a brahmos skin gets through during its terminal Lo-lo flight profile?
If yes, then I will provide you the much exact figure of the skin temp.If you are talking about its exhaust fumes.....yes,but again its not an aircraft thats travelling at mach 1.8 or 2,but its a missile with sleek aerodynamic body at 2.8 mach.


accepted that you are a genius.


Did you try forwarding this BRILLIANT IDEA to american forces?
Manpads and stingers targetting brahmos?
Dude.....I seriously had enough of this laugh.My stomach hurts


Maybe I donno which heat seeking missiles you are talking about.Can you please educate me about their detection and targetting systems against a supersonic CM?

Brahmos travels almost 3 times the speed of sound that ~ 1km/sec.The best QR(quick reaction)SAM has a reaction time of 5 sec. that is to initiate a launch after circling a target.And you know the typical detection ranges of these QRSAMs? less than 50km.Their missiles have a range of a max of 10km.Also, they cant engage target with speeds beyond 600m/s let alone a 1km/sec.



Phalynx CIWS has a max range of 9km and is known to failure of even intercepting a sub-sonic AShM at times.Killing brahmos is not about destroying its warhead which is just an addition to its kinetic kill which is 16 times more than harpoon.Its 200kg warhead will only make sure that the explosion takes place to suck the ship much faster rather than just making a hole from port to starbord side.


Please provide me a credible link to attest your claims of million rounds a min.

Only hot air.

Brahmos seeker has the capability to distinguish the actual target among a cluster of fake/dummies. SO this so called using of a SHIP sized decoy is a waste of money and effort.


Like I said,detection of any missile is not a big deal.But keeping the lock-on target is the need of the moment,which PJ-10 dont at all give you a chance. And Brahmos is immune to ECM.Sorry to ruin your party.



This may work fine for sub-sonic missiles which travel at 230-300 m/s but not against a 1km/s missile.


Not really.According to its designers and the IN which is using them,a salvo of 2 missiles is more than enough to make sure that large ship was sent to the bottom of the sea.
Its per unit cost works out for $2.1M and with mass production in future , the cost will further come down.
After all sinking a 500M destroyer/frigate is much worth than 2 brahmos worth of $4 M.

May be I might be wrong in saying $4M< $500M

dude I am out of words to thank you for your explanation

 

[Mirza Jatt]

I have been seeing this thread for quite some time now.
I have noticed people trying to undervalue the power of this missile...what is wrong in it?? Tell me why havent the countries who are undervaluing it have not yet invented a missile of that speed?

If speed does not really matter in a missile why scientists around the world try to develop faster missiles,even when they know through the people on this forum that it can be easily intercepted or can be mislead by luring them by setting false multiple targets.

It can be understood why people of some developed countries feel the pinch when a third world country (according to them )makes a missile like Brahmos.
Now you can carry with your discussion but what is true is - brahmos cannot be intercepted in that hypersonic speed...if you dont agree,you are lying to consolidate your heart.

 

[Mauryan]

Now it is clear to all that you are talking utter nonsense. A passive seeker is exactly what it does -- passive. There are no emissions. Radar detection is a two-part operation: active and passive. If the radar system is a mono-static type, then the antenna goes active to transmit then passive to listen. If the radar system is bi-static, then there are two, possibly more, antennas. One antenna will transmit while the others receive, meaning listen which is being passive. There is no such thing as 'being painted by the passive seeker'. There is no such thing as a 'passive seeker'. A seeker head contain the sensor assembly, which may be only passive, such as infrared, or the head can contain an active sensor assembly, which would be radar. But all would be inside the seeker head. When you are so desperate that you had to spout this kind of nonsense, there is no need for me or anyone else to continue with the rest of your argument.

Can you do me one simple favor?From next time if you wanna reply my post,dead it as a while,but not chop it to manipulate my words according to your logical explanation.Here I see is you being moulding my reply for your convinience to only put the answer you have. I wonder is why US is offering research grants to universities which is what you are saying?this is what you are doing :US is on high,untill Japs kicked its butt.Even its not worth for me to keep wasting my time on a person who pretends that he knows,but finally fails.
but how can you avoid being painted by the passive seeker?(which is after the capital ships radar emission).
also try to understand whats being painted means,byt different types of radars.Radar in theory can paint all types of targets.It is only the Tx/Rx and DSP unit that decides the nature.But at the end ,painting has different meaning in different contexts you apply.
Still many of my questions from the last 2 days get unanswered,instead people jump on the rhetoric to prove brahmos is dummy,becaus US have no such equivalent.Esle we would have been hearing tons of replies and repeated fanboy propaganda just like F-22.

errrrrrrr........ I understand now why people dont like to be considerate dealing with US people.