BrahMos From On High

[Arik]

Yes at mach 2.8 the Brahmos is really fast, at nearly 3 times the speed of sound the estimated skin temperature of the missile is approximately 323 K or 49.85 deg C at 37,000 ft. Of course, the skin temperature is dependent on altitude, atmospheric conditions, speed and aerodynamic efficiency. But consider the missile is terminal in a lo trajectory (sea skimming) the skin temperature will be appreciably higher as the missile passes through dense air, add to this the heat absorbed from the hot engine exhaust and the surrounding environment. It does not take a genius to figure that at nearly three times the speed of sound skin IR emissions contribute significantly to the IR signature of the missile in the MWIR(Mid-wavelength infrared) band. In this phase the Brahmos is a magnet for every heat seeking missile in your enemy’s arsenal this includes manpad and stingers. Modern heat seeking missiles are capable of "full-aspect engagements" the seeker is sensitive enough to acquire the target from any position and not just the hot exhaust.

There are several layers of a fleet defense that the missile must penetrate; the last layer is CIWS(close-in weapons) systems like Phalanx or the newer MetalStorm both come equipped with FLIR (Forward looking infrared) sensors. A single MetalStorm device is able to fire a million rounds a minute equipped with FLIR sensors the Brahmos does not stand a chance. I haven’t even mentioned first line of defense like LRCR (Long-Range Chaff Rocket) systems that will seduce the Brahmos by creating a ship sized decoy 14 km from the intended target.



Assuming CAP with AWACS support a Brahmos launch will be detected and countered much sooner I expect at 300km during its hi trajectory phase a capable AWACS system can seduce the missile with false data as soon as the seeker is activated. Newer jets like the EuroFighter, J-10B or MKI have electro-optic sensors specifically IRTS systems that can track and use a combination of sensors to cue missiles for a successful intercept of a supersonic sea skimming missile.

Saturation attack is the only way the Brahmos can elude all layers of a fleet defense. But at 3M$ a pop how lucky do you feel?

Whether the brahmos is overrated or not only time will tell.
The brahmos due to the heat build up may become a magnet for heat seeking missiles but dont u think the brahmos is too fast to be intercepted.It sure can be intercepted but the enemy has to fire a number of interceptors to destroy one brahmos.

Talking abt interceptors in the first gullf war US made patriot systems had detected 88 scuds engaged 53 but managed to desttroy only 27 of them.

Those were scuds.This is brahmos which is much more sophisticated.

 

[Kinetic]

Here is a post from Gambit.

Don't run away we were talking about ships!!!

You still did not mention that heat seeking missile!!!

 

[Kinetic]

OMG, you are beyond help kiddo. I wonder how old are you, if you actually think PAK FA is more stealthy than F22 than i am not even going to bother arguing with you. Here's a starter for you, read posts of Gambit and educate yourself on how stealth works.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/46025-my-pak-fa-analysis-4.html

You don't bother but you simply made your mind that F-22 is a god like creature!!! The best!!! You even don't understand what I have written, just referred to others posts!!!! I have wasted my time writing that much, its too difficult for you otherwise you could written a single word proving your theory!! Now think a bit who is a kid!!!

DOB, you are wasting your time he is just a fanboy. Even if you present facts and logic infront of them, they will still argue that NO anything that India possess in its arsenal is the best weapon in the world because its operated by Indians.

A fanboy just post his BS and later run away or refers to others posts like Gambit's!

 

[ironman]

Mauryan.. after reading your post, you made me to recollect some part from the "Wings of Fire"

Having spent the major part of his working life in Germany, how did he feel in America? I asked this of von Braun who had become a cult figure in the States after creating the Saturn rocket in the Apollo mission which put man on the moon. "America is country of great possibilities, but they look upon everything un-American with suspicion and contempt. They suffer from a deep rooted NIH - Not Invented Here- and look down on alien technologies".

 

[Arik]

What's so funny? You and your brother Mauryan seem to go into a laughing frenzy instead of taking the time to prove or debunk an argument.

Why do you feel that an approaching Brahmos cannot be "neutralized" by a volley of heat seeking missiles?

I'm done wasting my time with Mauryan who seems to think the Brahmos has a low RCS simply because it is small OR the skin of the Brahmos has magical properties and hence low IR signature.

I am yet to see any evidence to support the theory that one or two Brahmos is sufficient to take out a destroyer.

None of us over here are missile scientists .All we can do is speculate and keep making theories.No one over here knows what the brahmos is made up of.Do u think the scientists who designed the missile did not think abt the temperature rise and its effects.Obviously they did,and are most likely to have installed hardware to reduce the temperature.

I think India or Russia must give the iranian navy a couple of brahmos missiles to be fired upon an american destroyer protected by all kinds of heat seeking missile systems.If the destroyer sinks u will have enough evidence.

 

[vandemataram]

None of us over here are missile scientists .All we can do is speculate and keep making theories.No one over here knows what the brahmos is made up of.Do u think the scientists who designed the missile did not think abt the temperature rise and its effects.Obviously they did,and are most likely to have installed hardware to reduce the temperature.

I think India or Russia must give the iranian navy a couple of brahmos missiles to be fired upon an american destroyer protected by all kinds of heat seeking missile systems.If the destroyer sinks u will have enough evidence.

Yes why not, it is completely doable and even not violating the MTCR albeit India is not a signatory to it.

Let them test it. It is time for India to regard Iran as a key global ally and ofcourse an important player in the CAR...

 

[jha]

None of us over here are missile scientists .All we can do is speculate and keep making theories.No one over here knows what the brahmos is made up of.Do u think the scientists who designed the missile did not think abt the temperature rise and its effects.Obviously they did,and are most likely to have installed hardware to reduce the temperature.

I think India or Russia must give the iranian navy a couple of brahmos missiles to be fired upon an american destroyer protected by all kinds of heat seeking missile systems.If the destroyer sinks u will have enough evidence.

good idea...that is the only way to test brahmos...it seems..

 

[dbc]

Don't run away we were talking about ships!!! You still did not mention that heat seeking missile!!!

I once met a pilot who told me he returned from a mission with a .22 caliber bullet embedded in the under carriage of his Hornet. I found it hard to believe but his wingman corroborated the story and swore they were never below a 1000 ft during the entire mission.

Everyone here has a problem with the suggestion that a MANPAD can be used to neutralize a supersonic cruise missile. On their product brochures both Raytheon and Mistral confirm it is “accurate and lethal” against cruise missiles. Laughable when you consider that the Sea Scorpion 2 ship protection suite is loaded with Stinger missiles. Everyone here thought I was retarded to say that an all aspect heat seeking missile can strike an approaching Brahmos. It may take more than one strike to neutralize the threat but remember at MACH 3 the missile is already straining to retain structural integrity. IMHO, a hit from a MACH 1 to MACH 2.5 heat seeking missile is sufficient to either destroy it completely or damage the control surfaces enough to neutralize the threat.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ts/content/rtn_rms_ps_navstinger_datashee.pdf

Sea Scorpion, Phalanx and other CWIC defense systems is the bottom layer. There are other defensive measures like SeaRAM with a 95% success rate against supersonic cruise missiles.

http://www.raytheon.com/capabilitie...ments/content/rtn_rms_ps_searam_datasheet.pdf

Missiles with Active / Passive seekers are vulnerable to jamming; no one here is able to explain why the Brahmos is immune to jamming or seduction. To be honest, I am skeptical that your scientists have discovered a novel method for solving these problems on a missile that is 98% engine, fuel and warhead. Finally, there is no reason to become emotional - I doubt the concept of supersonic cruise missile and not Indian scientific prowess. If it helps assume I am a prospective client for Brahmos convince me that one or two missiles is enough to sink an American aircraft carrier / destroyer or frigate.

 

[BJlaowai]

Yes at mach 2.8 the Brahmos is really fast, at nearly 3 times the speed of sound the estimated skin temperature of the missile is approximately 323 K or 49.85 deg C at 37,000 ft. Of course, the skin temperature is dependent on altitude, atmospheric conditions, speed and aerodynamic efficiency. But consider the missile is terminal in a lo trajectory (sea skimming) the skin temperature will be appreciably higher as the missile passes through dense air, add to this the heat absorbed from the hot engine exhaust and the surrounding environment. It does not take a genius to figure that at nearly three times the speed of sound skin IR emissions contribute significantly to the IR signature of the missile in the MWIR(Mid-wavelength infrared) band. In this phase the Brahmos is a magnet for every heat seeking missile in your enemy’s arsenal this includes manpad and stingers. Modern heat seeking missiles are capable of "full-aspect engagements" the seeker is sensitive enough to acquire the target from any position and not just the hot exhaust.

By this logic, all super-cruising fighter jets should loose their stealth feature, even the mighty F22. F22 is a lot slower and much bigger than Bhramos, hence more vulnerable to heat seeking SAMs.

 

[dbc]

By this logic, all super-cruising fighter jets should loose their stealth feature, even the mighty F22. F22 is a lot slower than Bhramos, hence more vulnerable to heat seeking SAMs.

Yes you're right the faster the F-22 flies the more observable it becomes. The SR-71 Blackbird at Mach 3 is on record as the most radar observable plane ever.

The SR-71 was the first operational aircraft designed around a stealthy shape and materials. The most visible marks of its low radar cross section (RCS) are its inwardly-canted vertical stabilizers and the fuselage chines. Comparably, a plane of the SR-71's size should generate a radar image the size of a barn, but its actual return is more like that of a single door. Though with a much smaller RCS than expected for a plane of its size, it was still easily detected, because the exhaust stream would return its own radar signature (even though a special cesium compound was added to the fuel to reduce this signature). Furthermore, this is no comparison to the later F-117, whose RCS is on the order of a small ball bearing.

http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/SR-71_Blackbird

 

[Vassnti]

Though it is all hypothetical because i cant see a situation where India would be attacking a US carrier group but to continue the scenario no one seems to have asked can a flanker get to within 300k from a carrier in the first place?

It doesnt matter how good the missile is if it never gets launched.

 

[BJlaowai]

Yes you're right the faster the F-22 flies the more observable it becomes. The SR-71 Blackbird at Mach 3 is on record as the most radar observable plane ever.

Does it mean billions of $$ down the drain??
The thousands of people involved in the development program must be smarter than this. Things are not as simple of you make it out to be.
The experts would definitely have envisaged every aspect and senario and worked out the solutions to problems.

 

[dbc]

Does it mean billions of $$ down the drain??
The thousands of people involved in the development program must be smarter than this. Things are not as simple of you make it out to be.
The experts would definitely have envisaged every aspect and senario and worked out the solutions to problems.

You know what I should give up my job move to India and become a comedian. I seem to have a knack for making Indians laugh their a$$ off.

If you want to discuss the Raptor please create a thread and I'll be happy to discuss it there. In the meantime, please read the below post from another thread and try not to laugh.

The IR signature of a penetrating F/22 is dominated by aerodynamic heating of the skin and not the exhaust; a key design consideration for the F/22 is to limit IR detection to 10 km at a penetration speed of mach 1 from a lower threat surveillance altitude (adversary is at a lower altitude).

The IR detection range increases with speed, so if the F/22 decides to turn and flee at Mach 2.X then the IR detection range will increase dramatically. At Mach 3.5 the aircraft will be a magnet for heat seeking missiles, probably why most western defense think tanks don't make a big deal of the Indian Brahmos.

Of course if the adversary is at a higher altitude then the IR sensors come into play much earlier.

 

[ptldM3]

Though it is all hypothetical because i cant see a situation where India would be attacking a US carrier group but to continue the scenario no one seems to have asked can a flanker get to within 300k from a carrier in the first place?

It doesnt matter how good the missile is if it never gets launched.

Happened more than once.

WASHINGTON (CNN) -- American fighter jets intercepted two Russian bombers, one of which buzzed a U.S. aircraft carrier in the western Pacific on Saturday, U.S. military officials told CNN Monday.

Russia's Defense Ministry said Tuesday that there was no violation of flight regulations during the incident. A ministry official said the flights are standard operating procedure for air force training.

One of them twice flew about 2,000 feet over the deck of the USS Nimitz Saturday while another flew about 50 miles away, officials said. Two others were at least 100 miles away, the military reported.

U.S. defense officials said four F/A-18A fighter jets from the Nimitz were in the air.

The Russians and the U.S. carrier did not exchange verbal communications.

Russian bomber buzzes U.S. aircraft carrier - CNN.com

 

[BJlaowai]

You know what I should give up my job move to India and become a comedian. I seem to have a knack for making Indians laugh their a$$ off.

If you want to discuss the Raptor please create a thread and I'll be happy to discuss it there. In the meantime, please read the below post from another thread and try not to laugh.

Usually it happens the other way round. Jobs move to India and not the people. May be you can start a new trend As far as being a comedian, you are doing a pretty good job sitting where you are. In the cyberworld physcial location doesnt matter .

I didn't want to discuss Raptor. Since you brought the issue of how supersonic missiles/aircrafts are easy targets for Heat seeking SAMs, I just wanted to highlight how things are not as simple as you make them out to be.
The people who Design and Develop these thingies are lot more smarter and knowledgeable than you or me. Lets not insult their intelligence.

P.S.: FYI, Stand-up comedy is becoming very popular and lucrative vocation in India these days.