My PAK-FA analysis

[gambit]

It has been interesting reading some of the comments in here.. Not to offend most people but really .. way off base 98% of them.....

Some of you seem to Idolize the F-22 and some of you even the F-35
Allow me to put some things into perspective they way I see them.

<snipped>

I am stunned at the utter lack of supporting sources for this seemingly copy/paste job.

 

[amalakas]

Copy paste ?????

you think ???

No buddy ..it's my opinion and based on common sense and observations all the years the F 22 has been in development..

feel free to digg around see if you can find where I copied and pasted from .. throw the glove at you ..

 

[gambit]

Copy paste ?????

you think ???

No buddy ..it's my opinion and based on common sense and observations all the years the F 22 has been in development..

feel free to digg around see if you can find where I copied and pasted from .. throw the glove at you ..

Your opinion is absolutely groundless. I suggest you do a search and read some of my comments here on the F-22, F-35, basic radar principles and radar low observability. Then for the readership's benefit, redo your arguments in the same manner. Am willing to learn anything new but from what I have read from you so far, I have seen nothing.

 

[amalakas]

I don't understand ..

why should I conform my comments to the format that you think is acceptable to you.
Have you counter argued some of my arguments / opinions/ 2cents on the table type of thing... ? No you haven't .. careful, I am not saying you cannot, I am saying you haven’t taken the time or tried.
So why would I do that?
You are trying to tell me that you need actual output numbers from the radar systems and possible detection ranges for the two aircraft ? Is that the point ? You want me to quote sources about the RCS of the pak fa and how far out the AN/APG-77 will be able to pick up and track the T-50 compared to an F-18 or an EF2000 ? Why ?
That was not my point , was it ? I tried to put forward the very likely possibility that the T-50 (pak fa) will be stealthy enough to cut that range down to a point where its sensor can identify the missile launch and counter it and at the same time detect the F22 itself..
Why would you need sources for that ?
You doubt the Russian ability to produce sensors? Don’t current and previous generation Russian aircraft field passive IRST sensors? Do these not work ?
You think that their experience in the field for a few decades does not give them some in depth knowledge of the systems and best strategies to use them?
You believe that QWIP technology is beyond their reach and will not be fielding such sensors?
You deny the fact that in a likely engagement where the F22 will not be fed targeting information from an AWACS, it will have to use its radar to pick up incoming aircraft in an active way and thus giving its position away?
Russian radar design has shifted from the mainline.. they are trying new things and no one is questioning the technical advances made by the US in that field.. but that doesn’t mean that the Russian design is definitely going to be inferior. Besides the F22 is not invisible to all radar bands.. and perhaps there is some scope into the Russian effort to use sensors of side and on the leading edges of the wings.. When the T-50 becomes operational we will know more.
I don’t know what the T 50 RCS will be .but if ( and is just a working hypothesis) it is around the 0.01m^2 then the F22 radar will probably pick it up at around 40-50nm rather than the usual 100-160nm, and here is where the game is played.. will the Russian sensors be good enough to pick up the Raptor at that distance ?
As you see I was just trying to put forward how things may have been changed a little bit..
The Russians probably made a decision somewhere along the line of how much stealth they need for the amount of money they have to spend realistically. I think the T-50 is going to make a difference, and I do think you will soon see as a response to its development that the F22 may receive passive IRST sensors sometime soon.
Is it a better fighter than the F22? Most likely not
Is it a better flying machine than the F22? We don’t know yet, but possibly yes
Is it going to be able to shoot down and F22? I don’t know about that, but I am seeing some reasoning behind some of the choices made for that plane.

 

[gambit]

I don't understand ..

why should I conform my comments to the format that you think is acceptable to you.
Have you counter argued some of my arguments / opinions/ 2cents on the table type of thing... ? No you haven't .. careful, I am not saying you cannot, I am saying you haven’t taken the time or tried.
So why would I do that?

<snipped>

It is not for my acceptance but for the readership's benefit. It is also how debates are preferably performed, real or electronics. You make a claim therefore the burden is upon YOU to support said claim. It is a 'logical fallacy' (look it up) to demand others to disprove you. I am willing to bet that you did look up some of my comments on basic radar principles, how to reduce RCS and how I used proper illustrations and sources to support my arguments and now you are tap-dancing yourself out of doing the same.

 

[amalakas]

No I didn't actually

and I don't care how RCS is reduced. What is so hard to get ? Just because you are hung up on this doesn't mean that is the point to all discussions.
My point is, this plane potentialy changes the rules , no more no less..
don't care how low its RCS actually is for now, or how the russians managed to get there. Just like I don't care about how they did for the F22. Only what it means for engagements.

 

[dbc]

I don't understand ..
You doubt the Russian ability to produce sensors? Don’t current and previous generation Russian aircraft field passive IRST sensors? Do these not work ?

The IR signature of a penetrating F/22 is dominated by aerodynamic heating of the skin and not the exhaust; a key design consideration for the F/22 is to limit IR detection to 10 km at a penetration speed of mach 1 from a lower threat surveillance altitude (adversary is at a lower altitude).

The IR detection range increases with speed, so if the F/22 decides to turn and flee at Mach 2.X then the IR detection range will increase dramatically. At Mach 3.5 the aircraft will be a magnet for heat seeking missiles, probably why most western defense think tanks don't make a big deal of the Indian Brahmos.

Of course if the adversary is at a higher altitude then the IR sensors come into play much earlier.

I don't think anyone here doubts Russian ability, but like I said earlier in post #133 we have it covered.

"......all observable emissions from the stealth platform including IFF, acoustic, contrails, IR, communications, radar, laser and UV."

 

[Storm Force]

F22 is the bench mark.

PAK FA will be the first to challenge its total supremacy.

It may lack the toe to toe RCS but will compensate thru other advantages.

ie 3D TVC, 2 pilots, massive ,radar range.. more misslers more jammers etc.

 

[gambit]

No I didn't actually

and I don't care how RCS is reduced. What is so hard to get ? Just because you are hung up on this doesn't mean that is the point to all discussions.
My point is, this plane potentialy changes the rules , no more no less..
don't care how low its RCS actually is for now, or how the russians managed to get there. Just like I don't care about how they did for the F22. Only what it means for engagements.

Then we can dismiss what you 'opined' so far as irrelevant. Opinions should be based upon facts, not as replacements for facts. Insisting that others disregard your ignorance of facts, such as sound scientific principles, mark you as an intellectually dishonest person. Either you support your arguments. Or say nothing.

 

[amalakas]

Ok Gambit

You are really tiring me with this because you are so hung up on the stealth thing you refuse to see the overall picture.

Let’s talk facts….

Fact 1: The F-22 is built completely on the “First look- First Shot” Doctrine. You cannot dispute that. It’s just a fact.

It accomplishes this by :

* Stealth . RCS of -40db or less. And LO EM and heat signatures.
* AESA long range advanced radar and Passive radar warning receivers that increase the detection range for enemy aircraft even longer to about 300+ km .. .

The source for that is Lockheed Martin and their press releases. I am sure you are familiar with them.

The F-22 also sports supercruise capability and quite significant too.. (LM source)

Also has 2D thrust vectoring and advanced Data links amongst other things..

Fact 2: The -40db RCS is the one measured with the standard stationary high frequency radar tests similar to the ones conducted for project have blue.. I believe I don’t need refs for that. Do I? This is not the all aspect RCS the plane displays when manoeuvring.

Fact 3: The F-22 fields AIM 120s and is to field the not yet fully developed or tested AIM 9 Xs ..

Fact 4: The F-22 is expected to operate under the cover of AWACS. This is standard USAF doctrine. Do I need refs and sources for that too Gambit?

Fact 5: The F-22 is supposed to passively detect using its AN/ALR-94 incoming aircraft using their radar sensors.

Fact 6: The AIM 120 uses high power boosters to launch i.e a rocket.. need sources for that too?

Fact 7: The F-22 has no passive optical sensors.


Let us consider this…

If you throw an F 22 against another F 22 … how would one detect the other Gambit ?
How close would they have to be before one picks the other up on radar?
You obviously try to steer my “opinion” as you call it to the fact that the T-50 appears to not have S shaped inlet ducts, wide separation of engine pods and movable lerxes in order to agree that it cannot possibly have the same RCS with the raptor. Lets not forget the round nozzles in the back right?

I still haven’t read your previous posts about how RCS is achieved because frankly, I don’t want to, I am not interested.. If I wanted that, I could download a bunch of papers instead, not be on a forum.

Let me get one thing clear.

NO ONE KNOWS THE RCS OF THE T-50, it’s not operational yet. And that is a fact. Do you want sources for that too?

Facts about the T-50:

No one knows the effective range, output power or exact frequency of the radar sensor the T-50 will have. It’s not operational yet.

No one knows the exact engine configuration the T-50 will have, these are new engines, but no one has stepped forward to confirm these engines will be in the final version. The source is the Russian press release on the day of the test flight.

The T-50 is shown to carry the IRST sensor pods 2 of them. What the pods are fitted with, again no one knows.

General facts.

The F-22 LO or stealth signature is not across the entire EM spectrum. Physics tells us this. There are spectrum areas that the actual size of the target is more important than the angles or absorption factor or the target surface. I am sure an RCS expert like you knows this.

QWIP technology does not require the IR target to be significantly hotter than the surrounding medium. In other words, QWIP could track the F-22 even if the plane was only marginally hotter or colder than the surrounding air. Look up QWIP technology. I am not writing a journal.

Russian weapons are multi faceted when it comes to guidance. They do have multiple versions of the same missile with different guidance systems.

Also have ramjet engines for some. This has no flare and plume during launch.

Let us work into our F-22 vs F-22 example.

The two pilots would have a big problem on their hands wouldn’t they ? How to find each other. Eventually one of them would have to turn their radar on and give his position away.

If in this scenario we replace one of the F 22s with another plane, a plane that has some stealth, and some good passive sensors, then you tell me what will happen….

Wouldn’t that “First look-First Shot” approach be compromised at either or both of its parts because neither can be guaranteed anymore?

That’s what my point is, do you get it now?
Feel free to call all of this wild speculation and ungrounded hearsay on the F22 etc, but..

 

[dbc]

QWIP technology does not require the IR target to be significantly hotter than the surrounding medium. In other words, QWIP could track the F-22 even if the plane was only marginally hotter or colder than the surrounding air. Look up QWIP technology. I am not writing a journal.

Your entire argument hinges on QWIP technologies ability to track targets marginally hotter or colder than surrounding air? How wide is that margin? Do you know? You are willing to speculate that it is 40-50 nm - based on what?

You also assume no further research into LO until PAK-FA is in production?

 

[sancho]

Here is an interesting video, with some infos about Pak Fa technologies:

I can't speak Russian, but the comments are in english and claims the following points:

- requierment was to reduce RCS, by hiding engine blades and reduce ammount of metals
- 40% composites are integratet
- also a new developed carbon-plastic material
- the AESA radar will have more than 1500 T/R modules
- it will have 5 radar antenas, 3 X band arrays in the nose/cockpit section and 2 L band arrays on the wings
- the first prototypes uses the S117 engine, which already offers SC capabilities, production version will be the AL 41 engine
- negotiations with Indian partners about joint development and production are expected soon

The most interesting points imo were at 4:41 and 4:53 saying:

- F22 primarily designed to be invisible to ground radars
- Pak Fa is designed to see the F22 first and to overcome it with superior aerodynamic performance

So does that mean Pak Fa has a bigger focus on radar, possibly IRST detection, than on stealth compared to US 5. gen fighters?

 

[ptldM3]

- F22 primarily designed to be invisible to ground radars
- Pak Fa is designed to see the F22 first and to overcome it with superior aerodynamic performance

You can't design to counter something that's mostly classified and unknown. Both aircraft are designed to get a first look first kill, with that said, the PAK-FA will have excellent irst, possibly the best, but will it see the F-22 first? That's open to debate.

Now the 'superior aerodynamics' is the wrong words because the Raptor is already one of the most agile fighters on earth, the PAK-FA will match the Raptor in manuverability, or it might be slightly better, but 'superior' probably not.

 

[Thomas]

chill dude. its all speculations. there are people who right now claim Pakfa is crap. just like pakfa, even f22 has never been in an aerial engagement. nobody knows how good its stealth is. It has never been exposed to anybody outside. And just for a second, think why has it been scraped in the first place. Is it really the price? If it was so, they could have slowed its production down. Instead of 2500 F35 they could have afforded 1200 F22. After all, the US is the biggest economy. I am not saying pakfa is better than f22. I know it isn't.
All I am saying is it is not impossible for Pakfa to shoot down an F22.
Even a Su30 can shoot F22 but with a ratio of 5:1 or something like that favoring the F22 of course.
It doesn't matter if the rcs is 0.001 or 0.01 or even 0.1, its still difficult to detect. And that is what is required. You can go down to 0.0000001 m2 but it won't help any good and that is what happened to F22. F35 stealth is not better than F22 but is good enough. We intend to do the same with Pakfa. I hope I can reach you.

American missiles are better. No doubt about it. But radar wise we gotta think otherwise. The Su30 radar is almost 5 times heavier than an F15 radar. Its PESA right now. Still very very effective.

Also more powerful the radar, more are the chances of detecting a plane even with a smaller rcs. About the reliability part. Yeah they are reliable. But maintenance is a different thing. They are more reliable but require more maintenance after every flight. Also it requires much more money. There are articles all over the web describing how maintenance heavy F22 is.

Just my 2 cents.

peace...

Here is an interesting read from F-15 and F-16 pilots that have taken on the F-22. notice the combat to loss ratios.

F-15s and F-16s take on the F-22 in Air Force War Games - Fighter Pilot Training - Popular Mechanics

 

[Thomas]

F-15 pilots report that they have a hard time getting a radar lock even when the F-22 is close in and in front of them.