BrahMos From On High

[Mahakaya]

What's so funny? You and your brother Mauryan seem to go into a laughing frenzy instead of taking the time to prove or debunk an argument.

Why do you feel that an approaching Brahmos cannot be "neutralized" by a volley of heat seeking missiles?

I'm done wasting my time with Mauryan who seems to think the Brahmos has a low RCS simply because it is small OR the skin of the Brahmos has magical properties and hence low IR signature.

I am yet to see any evidence to support the theory that one or two Brahmos is sufficient to take out a destroyer.

?

I mean it will be great if you could please elaborate on this?

I believe all Navies across the world use cruise missiles for this purpose? How about you prove that a Supersonic cruise missile is not sufficient to take out the target even with decoys in its way?

Has the US navy ever tried doing such tests?

Not throwing a jibe but really want to learn about this. As of now if other navies use subsonic cruise missiles as potential weapons against destroyers then a supersonic missile should be atleast equally effective if not better?

 

[notorious_eagle]

No need to check your head because it is completely out of treatment!! You can never touch F-22 but we already got Raptorski, ie Raptor killer. F-22 was highly over rated just like other American fighters. In real exercises they were completely out matched by other fighters.

No, educate yourself, PAK FA is the best fighter ever built. And it will join IAF from 2015/16 onwards. Its the fact.

Your telling me to get my head checked while on the other hand claiming that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built , even your senior Indian members have not made such a statement. I am done here because i am not going to waste my time arguing with a fanboy. Instead of making these empty statements how about you prove it to me that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built factually, making empty statements is not going to make a difference. You claimed that its a fact that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built, I wonder what other senior Indian members think about this statement

 

[Kinetic]

Why do you feel that an approaching Brahmos cannot be "neutralized" by a volley of heat seeking missiles?

Which heat seeking missile you are talking about??

I am yet to see any evidence to support the theory that one or two Brahmos is sufficient to take out a destroyer.

If you don't know about Brahmos why you are talking about it? You haven't seen the Brahmos videos, you came to a conclusion? A frigate size ship when hit by the Brahmos, it was completely destroyed and with in a hour or two it sank!

BTW according to Russians, two Brahmos are enough to sink a aircraft carrier.

 

[Mauryan]

What's so funny? You and your brother Mauryan seem to go into a laughing frenzy instead of taking the time to prove or debunk an argument.

Why do you feel that an approaching Brahmos cannot be "neutralized" by a volley of heat seeking missiles?

I'm done wasting my time with Mauryan who seems to think the Brahmos has a low RCS simply because it is small OR the skin of the Brahmos has magical properties and hence low IR signature.

I am yet to see any evidence to support the theory that one or two Brahmos is sufficient to take out a destroyer.

Do you know? there is a good old saying.

You can educate a person who is illiterate.
You can still educate a person who is tending to know further.
But you can`t educate a person who pretends to be a literate.

I provided you links along with detailed explanation.But its unfortunate that I cant go beyond my limits in explaining you the architecture and composition of materials and sub systems in Brahmos.

I might have hopped answering some of your questions ,which I may have felt like worth not responding.Like for example,using stingers to take down brahmos.

In this case you yourself are making clear that,you neither have any idea of how a stinger works nor the brahmos.
Another thing thats not worth again responding is low RCS of brahmos.Which you can google and help yourself.

I am not sure why neither the IN nor Brahmos Corp offered you any invitation to see the testing of the missile in a highly cluttered environment.As it is said,1 missile for a medium tech savy naval ship,2 at most for a highly advanced naval ship and a salvo of 9 to take down 3 frigates/destroyers under any circumstances and considering all the worst case scenarios.
BrahMos Aerospace-A joint venture(JV) of DRDO and NPOM

P.S: we are not proud of brahmos.And its a russian system upgraded according to indian needs and further exports.But after all,things should be credited where its due.Instead acting ignorant bring you no good apart from igniting blind patriotism.

 

[Kinetic]

Your telling me to get my head checked while on the other hand claiming that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built , even your senior Indian members have not made such a statement. I am done here because i am not going to waste my time arguing with a fanboy. Instead of making these empty statements how about you prove it to me that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built factually, making empty statements is not going to make a difference. You claimed that its a fact that PAK FA is the best fighter aircraft ever built, I wonder what other senior Indian members think about this statement

LOL you are the person who declared F-22 as the best fighter ever built and I brought PAK FA into the scene, now its your duty to proof that F-22 is better than PAK FA, according to logic.

I say,

PAK FA is more stealthy (due to design features, high percentage of composites and other stealth features like plasma stealth),

PAK FA way more agile and maneuverable (because it has 3D TVC, much more primary and secondary control surfaces and better aerodynamics)

PAK FA can carry more and larger missiles with in internal bays (more and stand off missions)

PAK FA will get better weapons (new longer range missiles under development for PAK FA which can take out F-22 at longer ranges than F-22 take outs PAK FA)

PAK FA has multiple types of radars integrated against F-22's single radar (while F-22 has single X-band radar, PAK FA has two X-band and one L-band radars)

Now what is you logic?

 

[dbc]

Which heat seeking missile you are talking about??



If you don't know about Brahmos why you are talking about it? You haven't seen the Brahmos videos, you came to a conclusion? A frigate size ship when hit by the Brahmos, it was completely destroyed and with in a hour or two it sank!

BTW according to Russians, two Brahmos are enough to sink a aircraft carrier.

Yes I've seen the video, the test was rigged - the missile was aided by a target corner reflector to assist the seeker.

 

[lhuang]

Yes I've seen the video, the test was rigged - the missile was aided by a target corner reflector to assist the seeker.

For those of us who do not know about this, please explain:

How does that help the seeker?
How do you know that the that target is used?

 

[Kinetic]

Yes I've seen the video, the test was rigged - the missile was aided by a target corner reflector to assist the seeker.

YouTube - Indian Army Launches World's Fastest Cruise Missile -BraHmos (Sustained Mach-3 Speed)

Thats why we say learn before making comment!!!!

Is that a frigate or corvette even a ship? Does a ship look like that??

Don't run away! Which heat seeking missile you were talking about?

For those of us who do not know about this, please explain:

How does that help the seeker?
How do you know that the that target is used?

Don't expect any reply from him. This type of metallic sheds are used to determine the lethality and accuracy of the missile but we were talking about ships he presented this!!! My question to all of ou does it look like a ship!!!

 

[Mahakaya]

AND THE TEST WAS RIGGED?

Thats it!

 

[dbc]

For those of us who do not know about this, please explain:

How does that help the seeker?
How do you know that the that target is used?

Here is a post from Gambit.

Based on my experience...Yes...I am %99.999 certain that it was tested without an explosive warhead. The clue is between time index 1:14 to 1:30. Note the metallic device in front of the wall that look like a triangle. It is called a 'target corner reflector'.

The one in front of the test wall is very similar to the image above, which is for coastal marine use.

What a 'target corner reflector' does is bounce a radar signal back to the transmitter. It is how radar signals behave upon contact with a planar surface.

This is a test rigged with a passive device designed to assist the missile in finding the wall. The missile uses its own radar in a sweeping motion ahead. Radar signals loses strength as it travels through the atmosphere -- atmospheric attenuation. The reflector collect whatever energy remain and act as an electronic beacon for the missile testing. The missile's own flight control system respond and home in on this beacon.

For coastal marine use, reflectors let radar operators ashore and on ships know there are small crafts about.

Here is one example...

Observations of Radar Corner Reflectors on Life Boat and Balsa Life Floats.

The frame can be made cheaply of wood and covered with aluminum foil for increased effectiveness with a metal. Plain wood will work just not as good.

This is probably one in a series of tests for the missile radar on target acquisition. The previous tests had active transmitters to assess the receiver portion of the missile's radar. Passive signals that bounced off reflectors are more difficult to acquire. Next tests will be, or should be, with no assist at all. In real life, there may or may not be a structure on a target that will perform the same function as a purposely designed 'target corner reflector'. If the target is a ship, then the missile flight will be over water where mosture vapor level will sap the radar signal energy even more.

An honest test will have the missile over water in several sea conditions...

Douglas Sea Scale - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The missile should be able to detect a higher sea state, increase its flight altitude to avoid being swat out of the air if it is designed to fly that low, and increase the gain on the receiver portion of the radar. Increased gain also mean increased background noise that must be filtered out. There is also the problem of multi-path propagation that is unique to water and I briefly explained that here...
Anytime radar is over water, water related multi-path propagation issues must be dealt with, so do not presume Indian technology is any different.

 

[notorious_eagle]

LOL you are the person who declared F-22 as the best fighter ever built and I brought PAK FA into the scene, now its your duty to proof that F-22 is better than PAK FA, according to logic.

I say,

PAK FA is more stealthy (due to design features, high percentage of composites and other stealth features like plasma stealth),

PAK FA way more agile and maneuverable (because it has 3D TVC, much more primary and secondary control surfaces and better aerodynamics)

PAK FA can carry more and larger missiles with in internal bays (more and stand off missions)

PAK FA will get better weapons (new longer range missiles under development for PAK FA which can take out F-22 at longer ranges than F-22 take outs PAK FA)

PAK FA has multiple types of radars integrated against F-22's single radar (while F-22 has single X-band radar, PAK FA has two X-band and one L-band radars)

Now what is you logic?

OMG, you are beyond help kiddo. I wonder how old are you, if you actually think PAK FA is more stealthy than F22 than i am not even going to bother arguing with you. Here's a starter for you, read posts of Gambit and educate yourself on how stealth works.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/46025-my-pak-fa-analysis-4.html

DOB, you are wasting your time he is just a fanboy. Even if you present facts and logic infront of them, they will still argue that NO anything that India possess in its arsenal is the best weapon in the world because its operated by Indians.

 

[lhuang]

Here is a post from Gambit.

I bet gambit wrote that knowing 95% of members wouldn't understand the jargon and technical terms, hoping to impress people into agreeing with him.

Anyway what I could discern with my *non technical background* is that the triangular shape causes the radar wave(?) to bounce between the two planes and then return to the radar. This helps with the signal dispersion or whatever.

Now, I do not see how this 'rigged' test puts any hint of doubt over the efficiency of the missile. The Indian Armed Forces wouldn't induct a missile that required a radar enhancing shape to guide it, this is a probably an early test version of the missile before it was inducted.

Also a ship is a far, far, far larger than a triangle on a wall.

 

[lhuang]

OMG, you are beyond help kiddo. I wonder how old are you, if you actually think PAK FA is more stealthy than F22 than i am not even going to bother arguing with you. Here's a starter for you, read posts of Gambit and educate yourself on how stealth works.

http://www.defence.pk/forums/india-defence/46025-my-pak-fa-analysis-4.html

DOB, you are wasting your time he is just a fanboy. Even if you present facts and logic infront of them, they will still argue that NO anything that India possess in its arsenal is the best weapon in the world because its operated by Indians.

I don't know how gambit has reached the conclusion that the F-22 is superior from a couple of pictures and a video. Oh he must have been analysing the angles and the bends and stuff, right, right.

He is assuming that somehow, Sukhoi designers do not know all he does, that somehow the 'analysing' pictures of the first prototype is enough to deem it inferior.

At this time, no matter how many people try, the only people who know about the true capabilities of the PAK FA are Russian and maybe Indian officials, not gambit. No matter how much indepth analysis he does, we will only know of the capabilities of the PAK FA once it is inducted (even if then), and one thing is for sure, the PAK FA will not have a Pakistani counter for a long long time, much after the first J-XXs are inducted into the PLAAF. Given, that is, Sino-Indian relations haven't reached the point where China isn't selling its planes to Pakistan.

 

[Mauryan]

Yes I've seen the video, the test was rigged - the missile was aided by a target corner reflector to assist the seeker.

So whats your point in showing us a developmental testing video of LACM block-I?

Firstly you failed to provide me substantial evidence of intercepting Brahmos AShM. And now you right away jumping to its LACM variant.

 

[Mauryan]

First of all, there is no comparision between a in-service fighter to a TD. F-22 being in development stage for decades is now in service,while PAKFA is still in the TD phase. It is only now that TD proved its mettle, the real development of proto type starts.And it is yet 5 more years to see a completely developed version.

No offense, but Americans always suffer with superiority complex.they often believe that they are the only technology gaints while others are nuts.

PAKFA being developed after nearly 2 decades of F-22 will logically and theoritically have more advanced airframe and control systems.
Even if F-22 stealth material is found unworthy with the advancements of radar technology,US cant do much about that.But on the other hand the ones that are in development have more scope to be more advanced than the ones already developed.

US netizens and fan boys argue after looking at few pics of a flying TD of PAKFA that PAKFA is less stealthier than F-22.Unfortunately we are neither advanced to conclude the stealth characteristics of a plane after looking at few pics.As it is always known that Russians competed to yankees in each and every military development and in cases does exceeded those of US systems capabilities.

The first prototype of 5th gen fighter is getting readied with modifications that were intended after the analysis of TD flight testing.
And even when we got less info regarding the fighter in which we are part of the development process,these fan boys on both sides simply jump into conclusions.The work load has been distributed,And we are currently working on common systems to get the proto types airborne wihle the later prototypes will see difference according to indo-russian needs.on a side note good thing for india with this development process is its own NGFA is moving witha significant pace after the designs being frozen for years. though I dont have the authority to be media spokesman,but the TD of NGFA is gonna fly soon before 2013.