Boeing to unveil stealthier F/A-18 aircraft

[Kinetic]

I think India and Russia must do something similar to SU-30MKI. That will enhance the capabilities of MKI by many folds.

 

[nightcrawler]

US have started taming their old pets

 

[sancho]

Not exactly. This whole business of upgrades is part of the modernization roadmap drawn up by Boeing along with USN. The F-18SH has only two customers, IIRC - the USN and the RAAF. Do not confuse F-18SH with the F-18s, they are very different aircraft! Actually the US Congress was fooled in to opening its purse strings for the F-18SH by USN by pitching the Superbug as an upgrade for the old F-18, when in fact the F-18SH was a new design inside out! THe dimensions speak volumes about how different the two aircraft really are.

That's not correct, the USN F18 Hornets will be replaced by F35s, which will be the main carrier aircraft, the F18SH instead will play only a secondary role for the navy in future, mainly in tanker, or EW roles.
Also the "growth" upgrade is not linked with the USN, these are just optional upgrades available for export customers. The USN upgrade path is called "Flight plan" and has a seperate budget!

Check this:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/1423365-post3845.html

You cannot compare the F-16s with the F-18SH.

Of course, if they are at the same tech level, that's why LM is fielding the F16 IN against the F18SH, or the Eurocanards and btw, the F18SH will produced only till 2017, if no major export deal will be fixed soon, it simply is not a real new fighter, but a major re-design of the F18 Hornet and that's what's limits it's future as well. The high number of SH in the USN are not a point in regard of future potential, when they focus on 5. gen fighters mainly. They simply don't need high thrust, or a weapon pod when they use it for tanker, or EW missions only and the F35 will do any other mission way better then the SH anyway.

I think India and Russia must do something similar to SU-30MKI. That will enhance the capabilities of MKI by many folds.

Possibly at the MLU around 2020 I would say, but I hope they opt for real internal weapon bays (between the engines, should be enough for some missiles), or the Pak Fa tail fins if that would be possible.

 

[Mehmet]

Not sure if that is the mock-up that will come to Aero India, but that's how the F18SH options should like:

That's not an 5. gen fighter, because it neither has a stealthy airframe design, nor real internal weapon bays. That's nothing more than an attempt of Boeing to sell a few more F18SH,
The F22 will not be produced anymore, the F15SE don't seem to get approval of US gov for exports, because they want foreign countries to buy F35s, which leaves Boeing only with the SH, which so far has only a single export customer. That means to remain comparable to latest Eurocanards, of F16 versions the SH needs upgrades. Integrated IRST, modern cockpit designs, enhanced SA, good thrust and a low RCS are features that they already have and that's why Boeing offers these options for export customers now as well.

The important point here is, that these options needs to be funded and developed first, which means additional cost that increases the unit cost as well. The USN don't show much interests in upgrading the SH with these features so far, because they focus on the F35 too and all they want is to reduce the costs of older fighters, not increase them.
Imo, the F15SE would be closer to 5.th gen, because it carries no external loads anymore unlike this SH version (weapon pod is also on an external pylon + WVR missile still on the wingtips), but again no stealthy airframe and other missing NG features.

Im aware that the F/A 18 is not a 5th gen fighter but what I am wandering is what the fly away cost for a single unit of this variant would be.

Given the supposed improvements, the price in comparison to earlier variants should be a significant difference.

What I am stating though in my previous post is that given the U.S is the only super power in the world what would this revamp of an older design mean to the prestige of the U.S.

Yeah it's a shame the F-22 is not being produced anymore and given the cancellation is the U.S opting for the "good enough" approach or is it due to financial constraints forced to revamp older designs such as the F/A 18.

Or better yet what will these new variants replace or fill the role of.

 

[dbc]

Not exactly. This whole business of upgrades is part of the modernization roadmap drawn up by Boeing along with USN. The F-18SH has only two customers, IIRC - the USN and the RAAF. Do not confuse F-18SH with the F-18s, they are very different aircraft! Actually the US Congress was fooled in to opening its purse strings for the F-18SH by USN by pitching the Superbug as an upgrade for the old F-18, when in fact the F-18SH was a new design inside out! THe dimensions speak volumes about how different the two aircraft really are.

Again the F-18SH is an early 90's design which first flew in 1995, as opposed to the original F-18s which was developed from the YF-17 (from a competition where YF-16 was selected to become the F-16) an early 1970's design! IIRC YF-17 first flew in 1974.

You cannot compare the F-16s with the F-18SH. The F-16 design has
matured a lot leaving little room for development or improvement. EFT is a new design, again designed in late 80s with the first flight in 1994! While the EFT is still being developed, F-18SH has already made its bones!

That doesnt mean that upgrades are necessary for the F-18SH to survive or be a viable option to other airforces. RAAf is the only other customer which operates this aircraft apart from USN. And both have plans to keep this aircraft in service for a pretty long time, with this upgrade roadmap in place to maintain the technological edge over European fighters! USN plans to operate F-35s along with the F-18SH.

USN recently ordered 124 more Super Hornets, please ignore dubious claims by Rafale fan boys.

If you look at the future roadmap for the Super Hornet, the US Navy plans to operate the Super Hornet as a frontline fighter alongside the JSF well past 2035. The Block II Super Hornet is the most advanced multirole fighter available for export in the world. The Super Hornet is always receiving upgrades that will keep it relevant against current and future threats. This includes improvements to the capabilities of the AESA radar, overall avionics, and the addition of new netted weapons capability.

So far, 447 Super Hornets have been delivered—all ahead of schedule, on cost and with capability as promised, making it the best value solution for strike aircraft. Boeing will continue to deliver more aircraft sooner to modernise the strike fleet, reduce life cycle costs and alleviate force structure concerns.

Boeing recently won its third multi-year procurement contract from the US Navy for 124 F/A-18E/F Super Hornet and EA-18G Growler aircraft. If international customers procure Super Hornets within the timeframe of the FY10-13 multi-year contract, they will gain the synergistic benefits of the USN procurement build.

Dr Vivek Lall, Vice President, Boeing Defense, Space and Security — SP's Aviation

Here is what Carlo Kopp a known F/A-18 E/F hater says about the F/A-18's RCS.

It would be fair to say that the F/A-18E/F employs the most extensive radar cross section reduction measures of any contemporary fighter, other than the very low observable F-22 and planned JSF. While the F/A-18E/F is not a true stealth fighter like the F-22, it will have a forward sector RCS arguably an order of magnitude smaller than seventies designed fighters. Since every deciBel of RCS reduction counts until you get into the range of weapon payload RCS, the F/A-18E/F represents the reasonable limit of what is worth doing on a fighter carrying external stores. None of the RCS reduction features employed in the F/A-18E/F are visible on any of the three Eurocanards, which raises interesting questions about the relative forward sector RCS reduction performance of these types.

http://www.ausairpower.net/SuperBug.html

 

[gubbi]

That's not correct, the USN F18 Hornets will be replaced by F35s, which will be the main carrier aircraft, the F18SH instead will play only a secondary role for the navy in future, mainly in tanker, or EW roles.

F-18SH entered service with RAAF in 2010! That alone should put to rest doubts about the future development of this particular aircraft.
The Marines are replacing their entire fleet of F-18s with F-35 B (STOVL) variant. While the USN is going to complement the F-18SH with the F-35C variants (~480 pieces), the F-18 remaining the primary combat aircraft in the USN.
This from wiki "The United States Navy will use the F-35C carrier variant. It intends to buy 480 F-35Cs to replace the F/A-18A, B, C, and D Hornets. The F-35C will also serve as a low-observable complement to the Super Hornet."

Also the "growth" upgrade is not linked with the USN, these are just optional upgrades available for export customers. The USN upgrade path is called "Flight plan" and has a seperate budget!

Check this:
http://www.defence.pk/forums/1423365-post3845.html

Although the USN operates around 400 F-18SH, there have been recent orders for an additional 200 aircraft over a period of 4-5 years. So the assembly lines are going to be busy. And with this airframe being a relatively new design, there is a lot of potential for improvements. That is what Boeing is doing with potential customers and USN.

F-16 airframe design has outlived its potential, considering the advent of 5th gen aircraft & their inherent technologies. EFT is a design of the same time period as F-18Sh and yet faces teething problems. So is the case with Rafale.

Of course, if they are at the same tech level, that's why LM is fielding the F16 IN against the F18SH, or the Eurocanards and btw, the F18SH will produced only till 2017, if no major export deal will be fixed soon, it simply is not a real new fighter, but a major re-design of the F18 Hornet and that's what's limits it's future as well. The high number of SH in the USN are not a point in regard of future potential, when they focus on 5. gen fighters mainly. They simply don't need high thrust, or a weapon pod when they use it for tanker, or EW missions only and the F35 will do any other mission way better then the SH anyway.

LM is fielding the F-16 to soak up any profits possible before the lines go cold. Its purely for business reasons, not because it is a comparable aircraft to the F-18SH. F-16s need to rest now.

Again, F-35C is to be used as a complement to the F-18SHs, not the other way around.

 

[sancho]

F-18SH entered service with RAAF in 2010! That alone should put to rest doubts about the future development of this particular aircraft...

The time when the fighter enters service doesn't make it a totally new one right? When Mig 35 would enter service in 2015, would you also say it is a new fighter and has the future potential to be highly capable for 40 years? Of course not, because the main design is decades old and that's the same with the SH, which is a re-design of the Hornet, just like the Mig 35 is a re-design of the Mig 29.
When the USN would keep it in service as their main aircraft, they would obviously focus more on upgrades.
Btw, the RAAF can't be taken seriously here anyway, they bought the SH only because of the delays in the F35 development and the commonality to their older Hornets. They use it just as a stop gap and have even less interest to upgrade it, not to mention they intends to use it in future in the EW role as well, which again is a secondary role only.

Although the USN operates around 400 F-18SH, there have been recent orders for an additional 200 aircraft over a period of 4-5 years.

Exactly, what proves what I said, because A most of them are Growlers for the EW role, B without any good export order the production line will be closed by 2017.


However, I think it's clear now that these options are not linked with the USN upgrade anyway and are only additional offeres for export customers.

 

[gubbi]

The time when the fighter enters service doesn't make it a totally new one right?

Right, I was just pointing out the fact that this aircraft will be in service for a long period of time.

When Mig 35 would enter service in 2015, would you also say it is a new fighter and has the future potential to be highly capable for 40 years? Of course not, because the main design is decades old and that's the same with the SH, which is a re-design of the Hornet, just like the Mig 35 is a re-design of the Mig 29.

MiG-35 is just a souped up version of MiG-29M. You are being mistaken by the fact F-18SH design is decades old. There are a lot of new airframe design features which visibly distinguish the F-18SH from its predecessor the F-18 A-D.

Again "The Navy retained the F/A-18 designation to help sell the program to Congress as a low-risk "derivative", though the Super Hornet is largely a new aircraft."
The Super Hornet first flew on 29 November 1995.[5] Initial production on the F/A-18E/F began in 1995. Flight testing started in 1996 with the F/A-18E/F's first carrier landing in 1997.[5] Low-rate production began in March 1997[9] with full production beginning in September 1997.[10] Testing continued through 1999, finishing with sea trials and aerial refueling demonstrations. Testing involved 3,100 test flights covering 4,600 flight hours.[7] The Super Hornet underwent U.S. Navy operational tests and evaluations in 1999,[11] and was approved in February 2000.

You might want to read up on the Design

 

[punit]

looking pretty good .. cant SU 30 MKI be redesigned to make stealthy

 

[sancho]

MiG-35 is just a souped up version of MiG-29M. You are being mistaken by the fact F-18SH design is decades old. There are a lot of new airframe design features which visibly distinguish the F-18SH from its predecessor the F-18 A-D.

You might want to read up on the Design

I know that the SH has a lot of new parts and some are included in the design (bigger wings, new intakes...), but the overall design is still the same.
Moreover, the most important point to see that it is just an re-design is, that all changes are done on the single aim to overcome the shortfalls of the F18 Hornet. For example, the USN criticised the low range of the Hornet, that's why the SH was re-designed to carry much more internal and external fuel. They also wanted a higher bring back capability for carrier operations, which was the main reason to re-design the wings as well.
Mig 35 does similar things, bigger wings for more internal fuel and additional weapon stations, because these fields were often criticised at earlier Mig 29s. And the same can be said about the difference between Gripen to Gripen NG, also a re-design to cover shortfalls (fuel, range, weapon stations), but again based on the earlier versions.
Things like new radars, avionics, or RCS reductions are totally normal in any upgrade.

 

[dbc]

More lies from a Rafale fan boy, I'd worry about the Rafale production line instead especially since France was forced to sell land to finance the last batch of Rafale. The IR channel has been deleted from OSF-IT so Rafale F3 has diminished capability over Rafale F2. Rafale F3's will rely on the less capable MICA sensors. The French can't afford the cost of improvements to RBE2 nor performance improvement to its underpowered M-88 engine and addition of HMS that UAE is demanding.

Rafale's future is looking very bleak.

The new contract is valued at $5.297 billion. Under the terms of the agreement, Boeing will deliver 66 Super Hornets and 58 Growlers to the Navy from 2012 through 2015.

Boeing: Boeing Receives Multi-Year Contract from US Navy for 124 F/A-18 and EA-18 Aircraft

 

[sancho]

Boeing: Boeing Receives Multi-Year Contract from US Navy for 124 F/A-18 and EA-18 Aircraft

Look who is talking again after getting trashed with here made up stories about DRDO AWACS.

But thanks for the source, finally you add a source that really has to do with the matter of the discussion, keep it up!

Just as I said, most of the new SH are dedicated for the EW role and the production line will close after them when no export orders will be cleared soon. That's the reason why Boeing puts out all these options on the growth plan, to make the SH more interesting for export customers.

Or as the aviationweek article said:

...this will extend the production into 2017 and Boeing believes international orders keeps the line open beyond 2020.

Also interesting:

The mock-up will be displayed at the Aero India Show...although the growth plan is not tied directly to Boeing's F/A - 18E/F offer for Indias MMRCA requirement.
Boeing is careful to seperate its international growth road map, from the navys upgrade path, which is called Flight Plan. Upgrades on offer for international customers are not in the navys budget but synergistic with the Flight Plan says Kory Mathews, F/A - 18E/F program vice president

So these options are not really on offer from Boeing in the MMRCA and as I said often before, are not funded by the USN!
The navy has no interest in paying for them now, but if an export customer funds them, they will buy them as well to upgrade their own fighters.

 

[dbc]

Look who is talking again after getting trashed with here made up stories about DRDO AWACS.

But thanks for the source, finally you add a source that really has to do with the matter of the discussion, keep it up!

Just as I said, most of the new SH are dedicated for the EW role and the production line will close after them when no export orders will be cleared soon. That's the reason why Boeing puts out all these options on the growth plan, to make the SH more interesting for export customers.

Or as the aviationweek article said:



Also interesting:



So these options are not really on offer from Boeing in the MMRCA and as I said often before, are not funded by the USN!
The navy has no interest in paying for them now, but if an export customer funds them, they will buy them as well to upgrade their own fighters.

Are you blind or just stupid? The majority of the 124 aircrafts are Super Hornets not Growler. The Hornet production lines are reasonably assured until 2020, what about Rafale now that the French have run out of land to sell , I wonder what they'll sell next? It can't be the Rafale cause no one wants to buy it

The new contract is valued at $5.297 billion. Under the terms of the agreement, Boeing will deliver 66 Super Hornets and 58 Growlers to the Navy from 2012 through 2015.

As for 'getting trashed' on the DRDO AEW&C thread you clearly lack the mental faculties to deduce 66 is greater than 58 - what hope do I have of explaining an interferometer array to someone that dense.

Do us all a favor go back to elementary school and learn subtraction.

 

[Mehmet]

So this new variant of the F/A 18 is to be used exclusively by the USN? and not the USAF?

 

[sancho]

Are you blind or just stupid? The majority of the 124 aircrafts are Super Hornets not Growler. The Hornet production lines are reasonably assured until 2020, what about Rafale now that the French have run out of land to sell , I wonder what they'll sell next? It can't be the Rafale cause no one wants to buy it

As usual you don't read slowly enough to understand first, I said that most of them are dedicated for the EW role which leaves only a few for other frontline roles and that's why they will complement the F35 only in secondary roles. With the arrival of the F35, the SH will not play a big role anymore. Also as usual when all sources say productionline till 2017 at max, you keep denying it.
Rafale will be in production way beyond 2020 and as for exports you should try to update yourself a bit, UAE flight slot issues solved, Brazil officially looking for 24 carrier fighters for 2013. The SH can't be used from their carrier, the Gripen will not be ready in that time, now guess which fighter is left in the race?

No comment on the seperat US navy budget for upgrades? Another point that you always denied.

So this new variant of the F/A 18 is to be used exclusively by the USN? and not the USAF?

No, that is neither a new varient of the F18SH, not aimed for the use in US forces. That are just possible upgrade options that export customers could get, if they pay for their development and integration, just like TVC for the Eurofighter, or CFTs for Rafale.