Boeing bulllish on Chinook winning Indian competition

[I spikes therefore I am]

Boeing bulllish on Chinook winning Indian competition

Boeing is confident that the CH-47F Chinook will win India's competition for 15 heavy lift helicopters.

Flight trials for the CH-47F and the Russian Mil Mi-26 have been completed and offset proposals have been submitted to India's ministry of defence, says Boeing. The comments were made by Boeing executives at India's Defexpo 2012 show in New Delhi.

They say the CH-47F has met all technical requirements and that the next step is likely to be the opening of commercial bids, which could occur in May.


The request for proposal (RFP) suggests that the first aircraft will need to be delivered to the Indian army within three years of the contract signing. Following this, all 15 helicopters will need to be delivered within one year. The RFP placed great emphasis on the lifecycle costs involved in operating the two helicopters.

Boeing says it is currently producing five Chinooks per month at its Philadelphia factory.

The CH-47F and Mi-26 are radically different helicopters. The Chinook uses a tandem rotor layout compared with the Mi-26's conventional helicopter layout with a main and tail rotor.

The Mi-26 is much larger, with a maximum take off weight of 56,000kg (123,000lb) compared with the Chinook's maximum gross weight of 22,668kg.

The Chinook, however, can be transported in the hold of the C-17 Globemaster III, of which India has ordered 10 examples. Boeing says this greatly enhances the CH-47F's ability to be deployed to distant locations.

They note that the CH-47F used in the India flight trials flew into India aboard a C-17 and was able to conduct a flight just hours after arriving.

 

[medulla]

Mi-26 having more probability to win heavy lift category bids. India favors Russia this time for sure.

 

[sexy gun]

Mi-26 can carry a chinook... Hows that for heavy lift

 

[SP!TF!R3]

Mi-26 should win.it'll increase India's heavy airlift capability significantly.and the order must much more than just 15 helicopters.

 

[nomi007]

chinook is the best
mi-26 is too big due which it cannot land on horizontal plates

 

[Abingdonboy]

Mi-26 having more probability to win heavy lift category bids. India favors Russia this time for sure.

Mi-26 can carry a chinook... Hows that for heavy lift

Just because the Mi-26 can carry heavier loads doesn't mean it is superior. The fact is he IAF has had serious issue with their present fleet of Mi-26 due to their lack of serviceability and high AOG time. Time and time again the Russians have let down India and exploited their monopoly in the defence market, now this has changed they are in for some real pain-MMRCA, LUH, Attack helo, Heavy-lift helo, aerial refueller, most likely next PHALCON platform are all deals the Russians have missed out on- about $25 BILLION USD (conservative estimate if options for more and pursued, then this figure could almost double). The one saving grace for them is the PAK-FA/FGFA program and the MRTA but even then the Russians are pulling the same $hit and the MRTA is God knows where.



Not to mention the fact the Ch-47F has far more advanced avionics and is much more useful in a tactical sense than the lumbering Mi-26. For small LZs in the NE/J&K the Chinook is ideal.

 

[Capt.Popeye]

Mi-26 having more probability to win heavy lift category bids. India favors Russia this time for sure.

I would'nt put my bets on that happening. The Chinook will make the cut, since its the IAF's 'bird of choice' for operational use. Just the Life-Cycle cost parameter needs to be met, and it will. That bit about the Chinooks transiting in the 'belly of the beast' C-17 airlifter is only a matter of dramatic emphasis which undoubtedly was to impress the civilian mandarins in MoD, thats all.

The IAF is inducting large numbers of upgraded Mi-17s to replace and augment the Medium Lift Helo category. So if keeping the Russians "happy" (?) was a factor, then that will do it. Apart from keeping the IAF happy, who wanted it in numbers. Thats as "win-win" as it can get.
About Mi-26s getting painted with IAF roundels? ........................................., not quite.

 

[roach]

The Mi-26 is a white elephant that needs special permission from MoD every time a sortie has to be made. The IAF does not like it, they are going to jump through whatever hoops they need to to get Chinooks. Fer shore!!!

 

[T90TankGuy]

Mi-26 should win.it'll increase India's heavy airlift capability significantly.and the order must much more than just 15 helicopters.

its a norm in India to go for a smaller number for the initial order then increase it in the follow ons.

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

I share the disappointment of Abingdonboy and I hope Russians may have learnt something after losing so many contracts recently to the Americans and Europeans.

Having said that, I think Mi-26 T2 is a lot improved version than what IAF currently operates. Here is a video of the new Mi-26 T2. Check out the MFDs at 0.49 (no dials in the Mi26 anymore) Also the helicopter crew consists of only 2 persons from the five in the previous version of Mi-26 (that IAF operates).

If the Russians can confidently assure us of good quality service or transfer that technology under the offset, its logical that one should go for Mi-26T2.

Chinhook's Useful Load: 24,000 lbs. (10,886 kg)

Our Mi-17v5's can do 11,023 lbs. if externally slung.

Now, Mi-26T2 can do 44,090 lb

The role of the heavy lift helicopters will be to lift artillery and other heavy equipment to areas where they'll be needed (close to Chinese border). Given its superior lift capabilites I see Mi-26T2 as the best choice.

 

[Bl[i]tZ]

Another video of the giant from the MAKS airshow. This giant is pretty maneuverable I'd say.

Having operated its previous version, IAF would have a pretty good idea about its serviceability and its customer support structure. I think a serious lack of these two critical aspects would only push IAF towards Chinook.

 

[sancho]

Not to mention the fact the Ch-47F has far more advanced avionics and is much more useful in a tactical sense than the lumbering Mi-26. For small LZs in the NE/J&K the Chinook is ideal.

But these helicopters are meant for the heavy lift role and not for tactical roles, that's only a PR argument from Boeing, but this role is done by Mi 17s in IAF and the huge orders confirms that they are more than happy with them. This competition is only for 15 x heavy transport helicopters and when transporting cargo, vehicles, troops it the requirement, the Chinook is not even close to be comparable to the Mi 26. That's why even the US forces use Ch 53 in this heavier role!
If IAF wants helicopters to improve the tactical role next to Mi 17s, CV 22s would make much more sense than Chinooks. So all in all, it's not the best choice for IAF, but since Ch 53s seems not to be in the competition anymore and if the Russians remain with the maintenance issues, it will have a chance to win, otherwise it hasn't.
Btw, you are mistaken about Russians losing out, just check the numbers of Mi 17, additional Su 30s, Mig 29s, or Phalcon AWACS that again comes with A50 platforms (let alone MRTA and FGFA numbers in future) and you will see a clear difference. US aircrafts comes in in smaller numbers and only in specialised roles so far, where they advanced techs and capabilities would be a good addition to IAF, one reason why the Apache was always the front runner.

since its the IAF's 'bird of choice' for operational use.

You might want to check what the current Mi 26 was used for in operational service in IAF and might compare if the Chinook can do the same!
So the operational use is a clear point FOR and not against the Mi 26, only the maintenance was an issue, but this modernised version is by far different, so it ends up with, will Mil improve their after sale support or can we build parts of it in India to make sure maintenance is secured.

 

[Abingdonboy]

I share the disappointment of Abingdonboy and I hope Russians may have learnt something after losing so many contracts recently to the Americans and Europeans.

Having said that, I think Mi-26 T2 is a lot improved version than what IAF currently operates. Here is a video of the new Mi-26 T2. Check out the MFDs at 0.49 (no dials in the Mi26 anymore) Also the helicopter crew consists of only 2 persons from the five in the previous version of Mi-26 (that IAF operates).

If the Russians can confidently assure us of good quality service or transfer that technology under the offset, its logical that one should go for Mi-26T2.

Chinhook's Useful Load: 24,000 lbs. (10,886 kg)

Our Mi-17v5's can do 11,023 lbs. if externally slung.

Now, Mi-26T2 can do 44,090 lb

The role of the heavy lift helicopters will be to lift artillery and other heavy equipment to areas where they'll be needed (close to Chinese border). Given its superior lift capabilites I see Mi-26T2 as the best choice.

I agree with oh if Russia can get themselves together and offer a decent TOT/after-sales package to IAF then they would be in a relitively decent position. But IMO the IAF have got their hearts set on the CH-47F and they are no fools, if they want it they know why and have a better idea than all of us here. And like I said the Mi-26 may be able to lift more in a strategic sense but the Chinook can provide a more tactical lift capability and in wartime would be far more useful to the IAF. The Chinook could carry supplies right up to the frontlines whereas it'd be a ridiculous idea to send a target the size of the Mi-26 that was travelling so slowly and had limited manoeuvrability.

The argument is very much reminiscent of the AN-124 vs C-17 for IAF debate, and we all know who one that one. It isn't all about technology superiority of Chinook over the Mi-26 (even though the "new" version of the Mi-26 does remind me of th saying involving a pig and lipstick) but a different design philosophy that went into developing the two crafts, it is clear the IAF now prefers the philosophy behind the CH-47F.




@sancho, if you took the FGFA/PAK-FA program out of the equation (because the US wasn't about to let India get involved in the F-22) then Russia is well and truly beat- P-8I, C-17,C-130J-30,Apache and Chinook (these are US specific, the MMRCA, LUH, aerial refueller etc also didn't go their way) . There is a reason for this.

+ the IAF is seriously looking for suitable substitutes for the A-50 for the follow on order which would take Russia out of the equation completely.

 

[sancho]

@Sancho, if you took the FGFA/PAK-FA program out of the equation (because the US wasn't about to let India get involved in the F-22) then Russia is well and truly beat- P-8I, C-17,C-130J-30,Apache and Chinook

Lets put the pending competitions aside and we have:

12 x P8
10 x C17
6 x C130J
(22 x Apaches) seems to be clear

=> 50 aircrafts so far

42 x additional MKIs
45 x Mig 29Ks
more than 100 x Mi17
2 x more A50
=> 200+ aircrafts so far


I see a clear win for Russia. When you then add the numbers of beats the US got as well, LUH, MMRCA, basic trainer, VIP helicopter, you will again see, that especially in the big number procurements they were rejected.

Indian market has no preference, we buy what's good for us and Russia still has the clear lead, with Europeans in 2nd place, while the US comes only in 3rd!

+ the IAF is seriously looking for suitable substitutes for the A-50 for the follow on order which would take Russia out of the equation completely.

Israel And India Boosting Defense Partnership

Mar 16, 2012

...Meantime, the Indian air force (IAF) is seeking government approval to order two additional Il-76 Phalcon AWACS aircraft for $800 million, expanding the current fleet of three aircraft procured by the IAF under the previous $1.1 billion program. And Indian Air Chief Marshal P. V. Naik said the IAF would buy two more Phalcons. “Phalcon AWACS are tremendous force-multipliers. We are having an excellent experience with them,” he said.

Israel And India Boosting Defense Partnership | AVIATION WEEK

 

[Abingdonboy]

^^^ yes but I'm not talking about the NUMBER I'm talking about the VALUE. In this case US clearly beats Russia (estimate $9 BN to $6/7 BN for Russia) and this is if we don't take into account options, 24 P-8I, 16 C-17, 12 C-130J-30 are pretty much gere tree so the total goes even higher and I have no doubt will go even higher as India will go beyond these options.