Body Armour

[Quwa]

Are there plans to have more modular designs for vests, similar to Interceptor?

 

[XYON]

Widespread use with the Army will take some time, there are other things to work on such as individual communication devices, night-vision & thermal imaging to relevent units, etc. Fact that armor designs keep changing and keep improving, the PA cannot procure a huge amount in one go, it has to do it in phases.

PA has bought over the last few years a lot of body Armour or Bullet Proof Jackets for its front-line infantry and paramilitary forces. These BPJ are mostly Level III, the jackets are being made in Pakistan by the likes of CAVALIER, LYRA SHOES and in the inserts are being imported from Europe. Some jackets recently have also been purchased from China with European/ US made ceramic inserts. Gen Kiyani has declared this year as the year of the soldier, so a lot of improvement and investment is being done for the infantryman and his gear. Army is also looking to purchasing hydro-gear (for water drinking) to be worn under the BPJ's and yes the Kevlar helmets are now being manufactured locally at AWC. Army recently also reverted back to camouflage colors in the uniform from mono-tone brown before and these uniforms are being made by POF.

Only specialized BPJ's such as VIP and VVIP vests are being bought from foreign vendors.

 

[tamir]

I got out of the body armor business because I was making no money. Thats the honest truth. It was always a headache to participate in the tenders and have the govt cancel them later on. On the civilian side. The Police procurement is so corrupt, which is no surprise. They wanted us to reduce the number of Kevlar plies to meet their prices (including kickbacks). I simply refused to supply them life saving equipment. We were given a project to test and upgrade a couple of hundred vests that Punjab Police had. These vest were bought in the early 90s from the then largest body armor manufacturer RBA. The soft armor was NIJ certified Level IIIA. When we tested one of the vests. The soft armor failed miserably. The reason why it failed was...... because the vest had 20 plies of Kevlar and probably rated at Level II. When we ask the question.... why does Pakistan not progress that much. Here is our answer.... personal gains at the expense of our nation.
I passed on all my contacts to Cavalier. They are good friends. I still work with Cavalier on some projects. I've had a good relationship with Lyra as well.

 

[tamir]

Are there plans to have more modular designs for vests, similar to Interceptor?

Here is what's been going on with the vest design for Army. They want front, rear, side, shoulder and collar protection. They want a minimum of 0.5 sq/m coverage. In the last order Lyra pulled some strings and got their design approved. Lyra and Cavalier split the order. The vest could have been a better design.

I recommended Modular Molle compatible vest with quick release for the SSG. I do see Modular Molle vests for future orders and we did make a few. Outer carrier is a little complex to make but overall it is a very good design.

We did something very similar to this vest without quick release. Had an optional hydration bladder as well.

 

[Super Falcon]

what type of PA uses

 

[tamir]

There a few different vest designs but they are similar to the picture above without the quick release mechanism, Molle webbing and yoke (throat protection). Older vests have ceramic Level III inserts. New vests have lightweight Dyneema inserts.

 

[m15t3r7]

I THINK THE BEST BODY ARMOUR IS DRAGON SKIN

 

[tamir]

Again... don't go by what you see on TV. Agreed... field test the Dragon Skin performs very well. It has a good multi hit performance due to larger Level III/IV coverage (they even have a classified Level V). We have standard 10"x12" SAPIs that can handle 60+ Level III shots.
Here is the problem I with have with the Dragon Skin. It's much much heavier than conventional vests. More expensive as well. Now think to yourself.... do you really want to get shot over 60 times?? If you're hit, you want to be out of that situation ASAP.
Those discs are actually glued between the ballistic fabric. There are documented cases where the adhesive has failed in very hot and cold temperatures.

 

[zeeshuisb]

DragonSkin Body Armor

Dragon Skin is a type of ballistic vest made by Pinnacle Armor. It is distinguished by two-inch-wide circular discs that overlap like scale armour, creating a flexible vest that allows a greater range of motion and can allegedly absorb more hits than standard military body armor. The discs are composed of a silicon carbide ceramic matrices and laminates, much like the larger ceramic plates in other types of bulletproof vests.
The armor is available in two basic protection levels: SOV-2000, which was certified as Level III protection (this certification was withdrawn, and Pinnacle is suing to force the NIJ to reinstate on the basis of its own private retesting) and SOV-3000, which is advertised as Level IV but has not yet been certified as such. Pinnacle Armor's website also identifies a "Level V" variant, which does not correspond to any body armor standard and is not available to the general public.
Dragon Skin has been worn by some civilian contractors in Iraq, some special operations forces in Iraq and Afghanistan, some SWAT teams, nine generals in Afghanistan, bodyguards tasked with protecting generals, and U.S. Secret Service personnel.

Structure

Pinnacle SOV-2000 level III armor is made of an imbricated overlapping configuration of approximately 0.25” x 2” ceramic discs encased in an aramid textile cover. The area of Dragon skin body armor coverage varies between different layout configurations selected by the user.

Testing

Television

In a test for the History Channel's military show, "Mail Call", the vest repelled nine rounds of steel-core ammunition from a WASR-10 (7.62×39 mm) and 35 rounds of 9 mm, all fired into a 10-by-12-inch area on the vest. In "Test Lab", also on the History Channel, the vest withstood 120 rounds fired from an AK-47 and MP5 (9 x 19 mm). In another demonstration on the Discovery Channel series "Future Weapons", a Dragon Skin vest withstood numerous rounds (including steel cored armor-piercing rounds) from an AK-47, an MP5SD, an M-16A4 assault rifle (5.56x45 mm), and a point-blank detonation of an M67 grenade. While the vest was heavily damaged (mainly by the grenade), there was no penetration of the armor. All of the rounds mentioned however, are less powerful than the 7.62x51mm NATO round that a vest is required to defeat in order to meet the Level III NIJ standard.
In 2007, NBC News had independent ballistics testing conducted of Dragon Skin versus Interceptor body armor. Retired four-star general Wayne A. Downing observed the tests, and concluded that although a limited number of trials were performed, that the Dragon Skin armor performed significantly better. NBC also interviewed Jim Magee, one of the Marines involved in developing the Interceptor armor. Magee stated "If you would ask me today, Jim we’re sending you to Iraq tomorrow. What would you wear? I would buy Dragon Skin and I would wear it."
In light of the May 2007 media investigations, senators Hillary Clinton and Jim Webb requested that U.S. General David M. Walker initiate a Government Accountability Office investigation into the army's body armor systems.
After being confronted with conflicting information by lawmakers who questioned the NBC test results and provided Army-supplied data of vest failures from a May 2006 test, the technical expert solicited by NBC to certify its test backed away from his staunch defense of Dragon Skin and stated that the vests weren't "ready for prime time."
It was also featured on "TimeWarp" on the Discovery Channel.

Law enforcement

In Fresno, California, police officers ordered it after a vest stopped all the bullets fired during a test, including .308 rounds from a sniper rifle and 30 rounds from a fully automatic MP5 fired from five feet away. Ninety-eight federal, state, and local law enforcement officers witnessed the SWAT test. The armor also stopped 40 rounds of PS-M1943 mild steel-core bullets from an AK-47 along with 200 9 mm FMJ military ball bullets fired from a submachine gun.

Academic

Dragon Skin SOV-2000 level III armor was also tested the week of October 2, 2006 by Dr. Gary Roberts, LCDR, USNR, Stanford University Medical Center. These tests were conducted for a local law enforcement agency, as a control sample a stand-alone Armored Mobility Incorporated (AMI) level III steel composite plate armor was used for comparison. Both types of armor were conditioned for 12 hours at 170 ℉ (77 &#8451, then moved to ambient air for approximately 90 min prior to being shot. The problems associated with the use of inelastic clay backing material have been well documented; as such, the armor was secured to a life-size curvilinear torso replica made of Perma-Gel. Each armor system was shot a minimum of 20 times with five shots of each ammunition type fired against each armor system — one 90 degree perpendicular shot, two shots at 60 degrees obliquity, and two shots at 30 degrees obliquity, using each of the following loads fired at a distance of 10 feet (3.0 m):
•5.56 mm 40 gr LeMas Urban Warfare (using a moly coated Nosler Ballistic Tip bullet) with a 3,718 feet (1,133 m) per second average velocity.
•5.56 mm M855 62 gr FMJ with a 3,054 feet (931 m) per second average velocity.
•7.62x39 mm M43 123 gr steel-core FMJ with a 2,307 feet (703 m) per second average velocity.
•.30-06 M2 150 gr FMJ with a 2,736 feet (834 m) per second average velocity.
All of the above ammo was successfully stopped by both armor systems in this testing, with no armor failures or penetrations, even after receiving multiple hits.
AMI level III plates are fabricated using an outer 3 millimeters (0.1 in) MARS steel layer bonded to a compressed Dyneema backing, with a linex coating for spall reduction, resulting in a total plate thickness of approximately 1 inches (25 mm). AMI level III 12 inches (305 mm) x 14.5 inches (368.3 mm) plates weigh about 10 lb (4.5 kg) and 10 inches (254 mm) x 12 inches (305 mm) plates are about 9 lb (4.1 kg).
Pinnacle SOV-2000 level III armor is made of overlapping approximately 0.25 inches (6.4 mm) x 2 inches (50.8 mm) ceramic discs encased in a fabric cover. In evaluating the Dragon Skin system, it is important to note that while the external measurements of the Dragon Skin panel are 11.5 inches (292.1 mm) x 13.5 inches (342.9 mm), the area of level III coverage provided by the encased ceramic discs is 10 inches (254 mm) x 12 inches (305 mm); the fabric edges are not intended to provide ballistic protection. Weight of the Pinnacle SOV-2000 Dragon Skin armor providing 10 inches (254 mm) x 12 inches (305 mm) of level III protection was approximately 5.5 lb (2.5 kg).

Army testing

The Dragon Skin became the subject of controversy with the U.S. Army over testing it against its Interceptor body armor. The Army claimed Pinnacle's body armor was not proven to be effective and that some failed an Air Force test and were recalled.
Pinnacle Armor put out a press release stating that Dragon Skin "did not fail any written contract specifications with the Air Force" although it admitted they did "return the vests to Pinnacle following testing ... to address a manufacturing issue, but that issue did not affect the vests' performance during testing." Defense Review said they saw the test results and that they exceeded that of the Army's Interceptor vest. The Pentagon said the test results are classified and neither side could agree to terms on another, more comprehensive test. The Army wanted to hold and inspect the vests for 1-2 weeks before shooting at them, and Pinnacle wanted them shot at right away from out of the box because they said they feared the Army tampering with them in order to save their currently cheaper body armor program.
On May 19, 2006 it was announced that the dispute had been resolved and the vests were going to be retested again by the Army to clear the dispute. On May 20, 2006 it was announced by the Washington Post (and other newspapers) in an article titled "Potential Advance in Body Armor Fails Tests" that the Dragon Skin vests had failed the retest according to their anonymous source. Official results of these tests are classified and has not been released by the Army.
On June 6, 2006 in comments posted on an online discussion forum, Karl Masters, director of engineering for Program Manager - Soldier Equipment, said he recently supervised the retest and commented on it. "I was recently tasked by the army to conduct the test of the 30 Dragon Skin SOV-3000 level IV body armor purchased for T&E [tests and evaluation]," Masters wrote. "My day job is acting product manager for Interceptor Body Armor. I'm under a gag order until the test results make it up the chain. I will, however, offer an enlightened and informed recommendation to anyone considering purchasing an SOV-3000 Dragon Skin - don't. I do not recommend this design for use in an AOR with a 7.62x54R AP threat and an ambient temperature that could range to 120 F. I do, however, highly recommend this system for use by insurgents..."
In response to these claims, Pinnacle Armor released a press release on June 30, 2006 as an official response to Karl Master's comments, saying the testing was biased, not conducted professionally, that the testing is still unfinished, and the vests did not fail. Official results of these tests are classified.
According to the Army, the vests failed because the ambient temperature tests caused the discs to dislodge, thus rendering the vest ineffective. Pinnacle Armor affirms that their products can withstand environmental tests in accordance with military standards, as does testing by the Aberdeen Test Center.
In response to claims made by several US Senators, Dragon Skin and special interest groups, on Monday, May 21, 2007, the Army held a press conference where they released the test results that the Army says shows that Dragon Skin failed the Army's testing standards and that the current Interceptor body armor is the best available in the Army's opinion.
While calling the failure of his vest to stop a round on the second shot of the Army test a "once in a while" occurrence, the Pinnacle Armor CEO denied Army claims that a dozen more rounds penetrated his Dragon Skin vests. He argued x-ray photos of one vest the Army claims failed showed the Dragon Skin disks had stopped the round. "The bullet did not go through the armor," Neal said flatly. Army officials responded by showing lawmakers a video clip of Neal inspecting the same vest after a test shot, watching engineers dig the penetrating round out of ballistic clay backing. "Are you telling me if you were wearing this vest ... and that round hit you in the chest, would that have killed you or not?" a skeptical Rep. Gene Taylor (D-Miss.) asked Pinnacle CEO Murray Neal. "No," he replied.
In April 2008 one of the Dragon Skin vests, with serial number that identify it as a one of 30 vests bought by Department of Defense for U.S. Army for testing in 2006, was listed and later bought from eBay. The vest was shot more than 30 times with no single failure. The seller, David Bronson, allegedly was connected to U.S. Army testing facility. U.S. Government Accountability Office (GOA), U.S. Department of Justice and F.B.I. is investigating matter as of May 2008.

Certification and decertification

In an interview with KSEE 24 News an NBC affiliate on November 14, 2006 and November 16, 2006, Pinnacle Armor detailed the five year process that the NIJ and Pinnacle Armor went through to establish a test protocol and procedure for flexible rifle defeating armor, and then pass it for the certification.
On December 20, 2006, Pinnacle Armor received the official letter from the National Institute of Justice (NIJ) that they had passed the Level III tests, and that Dragon Skin SOV-2000 was now certified for Level III protection.
The Air Force, which ordered the Dragon Skin vests partially based on claims it was NIJ certified at a time when it was not, has opened a criminal investigation into the firm Pinnacle Armor over allegations that it had fraudulently placed a label on their Dragon Skin armor improperly stating that it had been certified to a ballistic level it had not yet been. Murray Neal, the Pinnacle Armor chief executive, claimed that he was given verbal authorization by the NIJ to label the vests although he didn't have written authorization.
On August 3, 2007 the Department of Justice announced that the NIJ had reviewed evidence provided by the body armor manufacturer and has determined that the evidence is insufficient to demonstrate that the body armor model will maintain its ballistic performance over its six-year declared warranty period. Because of this, Dragon Skin has been found not in compliance with the NIJ's testing program and has been removed from the NIJ's list of bullet-resistant body armor models that satisfy its requirements. Pinnacle CEO Murray Neal responded that this move was unprecedented, political, and not about the quality of the vests because they aren't saying they've failed any ballistics. He says it's about a dispute with the paperwork to deal with a warranty issue instead, in which the warranty period of Dragon Skin is longer than that of most other commercial vests.
On August 20, 2007 at the United States Test Laboratory in Wichita, Kansas, nine Dragon Skin SOV-2000 (Level III) body armor panels were retested, for the purpose of validating Pinnacle Armor's six year warranty. The panels tested were between 5.75 years old to 6.6 years old. All items met the NIJ Level III ballistic protection, confirming Pinnacle Armor's six-year warranty for full ballistic protection.. Pinnacle resubmitted the SOV-2000 vest to the NIJ for certification based on this successful testing, but this application was rejected because the test had not been properly documented. As of November 2007, Pinnacle is suing to force the NIJ to recertify the SOV-2000 vest without testing it.

 

[RescueRanger]

Tamir does your company maunfacture or developing EOD suits? Because the last one offered by Lyra was not very good compared to the US ones or the Chinese one on display at Fire and Security aswell as Ideas.

Regards...

 

[tamir]

RescueRanger,
We do not manufacture EOD suits. These are much more complex. Different sections of the suits have different protection levels. Panel designs and stitching have a lot to do with flexiblity for the EOD suit. You want to get an EOD suit from a reputable established company. Probably in the $10,000+ range.
Not saying good quality EOD suits can't be made in Pakistan.... just not enough demand to push for good prices and better quality. There is barely any profit margin on body armor vests.
To all the fans of Dragon Skin...the vest is very heavy and very expensive and there are other flaws. Just because its been showcased on TV shows stopping 60+ rounds doesnt make it the best armor. Again.... do you really want to get shot 60 times and not move??? You want good light weight coverage to your vital organs. The vests supplied to PA have one of the lightest Level III Dyneema inserts (1.3 kgs).

 

[MadDog]

Hey guys i guess SSG has a bit different BPJ from the army...
i guess their one is more lighter....am i right??????

 

[tamir]

As far as the last order for vests there wasn't a different spec for SSG.
The vests being supplied to PA are already pretty light. The Level III HPPE inserts are only 1.3 kg in weight. We could go a little lighter on the soft armor but it would be raise the price.
The Army is still using the specs from the 1995 order the placed with Lightweight Body Armour UK and Ballistic Body Armour (S. Africa).

 

[Tang0]

Does pretty much everyone in the Industry use the NIJ standards, or do they use other ratings systems in say..Europe for example?

 

[tamir]

Pak Army uses NIJ standards. Police and Rangers use the same Pak Army specs but the Level IIIA armor requirement is different. The soft armor has to defeat 7.62x25mm Tokarev steel core round. Normal NIJ Level IIIA rated armor cannot not defeat that round.
Now the Police live fire testing on the armor is completely different. No chronograph no calibrated clay backing to measure blunt trauma. Vest is mounted on a dirt filled sack!