What's new

When less is more: A soliders load

Actual Gear I used in 2005 when I was deployed to Operation Enduring Freedom.

View attachment 908687
View attachment 908688View attachment 908689

Not showing the following item
IFAK kit (Medic used it on me when I was wounded in Afghanistan)
M4 Rifle (Can't take it to my civilian life lol)
PVS-14NVG (Well, I can buy it off the government but then why would I need a $2400 NVG for? Not a peeping tom...)
SAPI Plate (Don't need them as well, can get them anywhere tho)

I would wear them and model it for you, but I have put on 20 pounds since 2005 and these no longer fits me, I can probably wear the UCP pants but both the helmet and and the UCP top and IBA are now too small. :argh: For the record, I am 6 ft 1 (185 cm) and 92 kg. And dont know if you can see the shirt, I was with the Airborne when I wear that, and so I was listed as a light infantry.

And that's it' that's the gear I wear in war for a whole year (that with my M4 and M203 and my PVS-14) and that is probably be enough for a low intensity conflict. If I was in Ukraine (well, I was) and fighting the Russian, I would probably want more stuff, like adding a Burgen and a few more pouch. But for Afghanistan, that's enough.

The thing about Tacticool is, most of the people go for that is people who were never in battle. The gear I hump with is about 30lbs (MICH-2000 + IBA/2 SAPI + Rifle + Spare mag) and that is the minimal loadout and that is enough for any operation, but even then, added that 30lb on me, that would mean I now weight around 110kg, that's hard to walk, not to mention run. And you will most definitely needed mobility in war. Which mean getting stuff that you don't need or use is a big no-no in the field. But it looks cool, people would argue, so did a pair of Rayban. You don't wear rayban in war......

The thing is, whenever I go, my Humvee is no more than 100 ft from me, if I need anything, like rations and breaching tool, I will just get it from the Humvee, so you don't really hump with all those. In Ranger School tho, we were taught to pack "Long Range" pack, that is mostly for LRRP type recon mission, you pack for 3 days ration with double ammo, because resupply would be a problem for you during those recon run (It's still possible for Air Drop but that's another story) And that long range pack (or Ranger Load/Ranger Pack) is around 50lbs (or ~30Kg) that some seriosu load. You have stuff that you don't need but may need or stuff that you usually just store in your transport. (like a breaching shot gun for example) A Ranger Pack would have both mechanical breaching and explosive breaching tool, ropes, VS17 panel and extra socks and rations, grenade and ammo etc.

Special Force have another set of pack, that's based on mission, but what I heard is SF pack can goes up to 70-80lbs. But then you will have something that you definitely don't need like radio set (you use MBITER instead in regular army) Trauma Kid (Which is something a paramedic would carry) and other explosive stuff.

In short, just hump with what you need, that make you less miserable..
Thank you for sharing, I’ve always been a fan of the old Interceptor body armour. I’ve got a condor PC and a BlackHawk STRIKE. ( the STRIKE) is compact enough to be worn under a large jacket in winter but still weighs a bit 😂
1672518695785.jpeg
 
Actual Gear I used in 2005 when I was deployed to Operation Enduring Freedom.

View attachment 908687
View attachment 908688View attachment 908689

Not showing the following item
IFAK kit (Medic used it on me when I was wounded in Afghanistan)
M4 Rifle (Can't take it to my civilian life lol)
PVS-14NVG (Well, I can buy it off the government but then why would I need a $2400 NVG for? Not a peeping tom...)
SAPI Plate (Don't need them as well, can get them anywhere tho)

I would wear them and model it for you, but I have put on 20 pounds since 2005 and these no longer fits me, I can probably wear the UCP pants but both the helmet and and the UCP top and IBA are now too small. :argh: For the record, I am 6 ft 1 (185 cm) and 92 kg. And dont know if you can see the shirt, I was with the Airborne when I wear that, and so I was listed as a light infantry.

And that's it' that's the gear I wear in war for a whole year (that with my M4 and M203 and my PVS-14) and that is probably be enough for a low intensity conflict. If I was in Ukraine (well, I was) and fighting the Russian, I would probably want more stuff, like adding a Burgen and a few more pouch. But for Afghanistan, that's enough.

The thing about Tacticool is, most of the people go for that is people who were never in battle. The gear I hump with is about 30lbs (MICH-2000 + IBA/2 SAPI + Rifle + Spare mag) and that is the minimal loadout and that is enough for any operation, but even then, added that 30lb on me, that would mean I now weight around 110kg, that's hard to walk, not to mention run. And you will most definitely needed mobility in war. Which mean getting stuff that you don't need or use is a big no-no in the field. But it looks cool, people would argue, so did a pair of Rayban. You don't wear rayban in war......

The thing is, whenever I go, my Humvee is no more than 100 ft from me, if I need anything, like rations and breaching tool, I will just get it from the Humvee, so you don't really hump with all those. In Ranger School tho, we were taught to pack "Long Range" pack, that is mostly for LRRP type recon mission, you pack for 3 days ration with double ammo, because resupply would be a problem for you during those recon run (It's still possible for Air Drop but that's another story) And that long range pack (or Ranger Load/Ranger Pack) is around 50lbs (or ~30Kg) that some seriosu load. You have stuff that you don't need but may need or stuff that you usually just store in your transport. (like a breaching shot gun for example) A Ranger Pack would have both mechanical breaching and explosive breaching tool, ropes, VS17 panel and extra socks and rations, grenade and ammo etc.

Special Force have another set of pack, that's based on mission, but what I heard is SF pack can goes up to 70-80lbs. But then you will have something that you definitely don't need like radio set (you use MBITER instead in regular army) Trauma Kid (Which is something a paramedic would carry) and other explosive stuff.

In short, just hump with what you need, that make you less miserable..

No offence bro but the name of the operation was and is comical.
 
An interesting interaction with @Goritoes in another thread motivated me to talk about this. Firstly, polite warning, this will be a long post so you may want to take your time to digest it.

For some reason a few people on this forum and elsewhere to be honest seem to think more is better, and whilst there is an argument to be had to "being risk averse" the current model of scalability and high mobility adopted by Pakistan Army works just fine and is battle testes - so why re-invent the wheel so to speak?

In this post I will aim to put forward my argument for "less is more", a bibliopgraphy of sources to compile this post will be posted in the footnotes should anyone be bored to engage in further reading. :lol:

Lets start by addressing the elephant in the room: The Tacticool "Operator" vs the professional Pakistani front line solider. Now for some reason when people think of what a "professional solider" looks like thier expectation is instantly:
e4a.jpg


Whereas the reality is much more minalmistic:
d1831f94-5f05-43be-8bf0-e01ea8c82081_w1080_h608_s.jpg


Even with this trimmed down heavily scalable approach the average load a Pakistani solider carries is as follows:


  • Body armour: Weight 11kg (e) with plates
  • SMG 4.3 kg [loaded weight]
  • Loaded magazine @0.85kg x 2 = 1.7kg
  • Helmet weight 1.25kg

That is an estimated 18.25kg of kit. Based on the above model and given that the average Pakistani male is 66Kg in weight, the average solider carries 27% of their bodyweight in equipment AT ALL TIMES.

This brings us to the interesting question of "a soliders load". Soliders have always struggled with the weight of carrying their weapons and equipment. Roman Legionnaires on the march carried 80-pound loads on long spiked stakes slung across their shoulders. Byzantine infantrymen found themselves with similar loads. Their ration carts and pack horses trailed behind them but did little to relieve their individual loads. During the American Revolution, from Boston to Saratoga. British soldiers fought their loads in addition to the American colonists.

In the Normandy invasion of 1944, when American infantrymen with 80-pound rucksacks dropped from their landing craft into the rough surf off Omaha Beach, many of them never made it to the beach. Many soldiers fell into deep holes while wading in, and their already heavy equipment absorbed so much more weight in water that they could not get up. Others managed to crawl as far as the shoreline where they collapsed. There, overcome with exhaustion, many of them drowned.

In his book Titled "The Soldier's Load and The Mobility of A Nation"
Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall argued No logistical system is sound unless its first principle is enlightened conservation of the power of the individual fighter.[1]

In his paper in 1987 then Captain and Lt. Gen. William C. Mayville stated "Soldiers who march into battle carrying heavy loads do not usually perform well in combat. Their loads drain them of their strength, reduce their mobility, and slow their minds."[2]

In an interesting study carried out by the British Army using "Hybrid Formation Training" exercises during Operation HERRICK[Afghanistan], showed that soliders overburdned with kit not only fatigued quicker, but their accuracy greater deminished based on the amount of equipment they carried:

View attachment 908432
Source[3]

In his book Urgent Fury - The Battle for Grenada Mark Adkin in interview with an anonymous yet decorated solider who recounts: We attacked to secure the airhead. We were like slow moving turtles. My ruck weighed 120 pounds … There were all those guys sitting on the side of the road with IV tubes in them. There's no way the guys could [have gone on]. [4]
Professional soldiers and military historians over the past 30 years have addressed this issue at great length. In The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation, S.L.A. Marshall cites three fallacious beliefs that lead to overloading.

The first of these fallacies is that large amounts of ammunition on a soldier's back gives him greater confidence in battle. Marshall contends that combat has never supported this myth, that soldiers will fight to the last round when necessary.

The second fallacy is that shortages in ammunition cause "tactical disarrangements" and that such shortages are therefore to be avoided. But Marshall cites the defense of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge in which soldiers willingly shared their limited supplies to survive eight days of encirclement.

The third fallacy holds that a soldier must be equipped for every possible contingency. Marshall blames staff officers for promoting this notion and argues that such thinking smothers and exhausts soldiers before they ever reach the battlefield. Certainly, the soldiers "sitting on the side of the road" in Grenada would have agreed.

In his book The Mobility of One Man - Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall gave an example of the European Theater duringWWII, druing which he wrote "the basic individual ammunition load for the paratrooper was eighty rounds for his carbine or MI, and two hand grenades. When the paratrooper jumped into Normandy on June 6, 1944, he also carried these things: 1 rifle and carrier part, 1 English mine, 6 packages of K-ration, 1 impregnated jump suit, 1 complete uniform, 1 steel helmet and liner, 1 knitted cap, 1 change of underwear, 2 changes of sox, 1 entrenching tool, 1 gas mask, 1 first-aid pack, 1 spoon, 2 gas pro tective covers, 1 field bag with suspenders, 1 packet of sulfa tablets, 1 escape kit, and a set of toilet articles.

Despite all that weight, the most salient characteristic in operations by these forces was without doubt the high mobility of all ranks. That was because most of them used common sense. They jumped heavy but they moved light. Once on the ground, most of them ditched every piece of equipment they considered unnecessary. They did this without order, and often before they had engaged any of the enemy or joined up with any of their comrades. It was a reflex to a course of training which had stressed that the main thing was to keep going"[5]


Among other studies on the subject, in 1962 the United States Army Combat Development Agency collected and analyzed statistics from World War II and Korea relating to the soldier's fighting load. The study concluded that the soldier's load had a direct effect on his performance in combat, that his mobility was "degraded to an unacceptable degree by his prescribed load." [6]

The agency further concluded that infantrymen, who represented 80 percent of all battle casualties in those wars, should be given special equipment and clothing to meet their unique combat requirements. The study recommended that the maximum fighting load be restricted to 40 pounds or 18Kg and that "officers at all echelons receive a thorough education and indoctrination in the problem of overloading the infantry combat soldier."

The introduction of helicopters and transport vehicles for example, are major logistical steps towards reducing the solider's load. But other tecnnological developments such as NVGs, encrypted radios, Laser Designators and the sort put back the weight these logistical systems remove.

Another major issue becomes CASEVAC, in the British Army review Number 173 - Autumn 2018, one outcome from HFT(Hybrid Formation Training) exercises was to study how to improve CASEVAC in their sections (buddy rescue) some of which were carrying in excess of 80kg of load.

The result was a change in formation of sections to deliberately "off load" on section with the capacity to "stretcher carry" one or more casualty on foot for 2km: [Notice the magical 18kg re-appearing in the graph below]
View attachment 908435

Similarly the US. Army Infantry School now recommends a maximum load of 30 to 40 percent of a soldier's body weight.
Training light should involve risk, just as fighting light involves risk. The solution to lighter loads is risk analysis, in which a commander makes an accurate tactical assessment and calculates what is really needed for each mission.A soldier's minimum essential load includes his uniform, assigned weapon, and load carrying equipment.. These items are usually identified in a unit's standing operating procedures (SOP).
Risk-Assessment-Matrix-in-Qualitative-Risk-Analysis.jpg

Admittedly, risk analysis will not bring the proper balance of load and agility to certain types of infantrymen simply because of the equipment that goes with their jobs.

The solution to this particular problem requires imaginative thinking on the part of commanders. It requires that portions of these soldiers' loads be distributed to other members of the unit—water, meals, and sleeping equipment, for example. These adjustments themselves are risk assessments, but failing to make them threatens the survivability of the men who must carry these heavy items.

Strong legs and a good back are a soldier's most precious resources. They are the key to his success and survival on the battlefield. But putting a heavy load on those legs and that back robs him of his mobility and agility. It steals his strength and denies him the ability to think quickly.

Thank you for reading.


@Signalian @PanzerKiel
[1] The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation - S.L.A Marshall - Reprinted 1980
[2] A Soldier's Load (1987) - Captain William C. Mayville, Vol. 77, No. 1, Infantry, Jan-Feb 1987
[3] https://www.army.mod.uk/umbraco/Surface/Download/Get/11615
[4] Mark Adkin, Urgent Fury - The Battle for Grenada - The Truth Behind the Largest U.S. Military Operation since Vietnam Hardcover – 19 Oct. 1989
[5] The Mobility of One Man - S.L.A Marshall - Reprinted 1980
[6]The 1962 Howze Board and Army Combat Developments - J.A. Stockfish https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR435.pdf

Excellent analysis overall.

However the overall address has been towards conventional warfare, in terms of long term engagements and the like.

Is there anything that could be done to reduce casualties within smaller scale SSG operations, such as CQB CTD operations?

It is true that western SF still do not manage to lose as many men in these kind of operations. Would it be possible that we fall short in certain training?
 
Excellent analysis overall.

However the overall address has been towards conventional warfare, in terms of long term engagements and the like.

Is there anything that could be done to reduce casualties within smaller scale SSG operations, such as CQB CTD operations?

It is true that western SF still do not manage to lose as many men in these kind of operations. Would it be possible that we fall short in certain training?
You know the thing is that Western SF are far more risk averse, our guys not so much so that is certainly an issue.

The other issue is that the Americans especially have the largest military machine in the world.

The use of RQ-11B Raven, BACN for battle space awareness comes to mind. The second thing is CQB is just so difficult and unpredictable.


One such example of the unpredictable nature of any CQB environment is the below video:


There is always room for improvement, I think what is needed is a dedicated team for MOUT, similar to the FBIs HRT (the grand daddy of SWAT)


Hostage Rescue is always open to hazards, errors and unexpected situations- like the famous Iranian Embassy Seige where smoke and stun grenades used by the SAS caused the curtains to catch fire:


One of the SAS soldiers involved in the rescue the late John “MAC” McAleese suffered third degree burns to his hands as a result.
 
Actual Gear I used in 2005 when I was deployed to Operation Enduring Freedom.

View attachment 908687
View attachment 908688View attachment 908689

Not showing the following item
IFAK kit (Medic used it on me when I was wounded in Afghanistan)
M4 Rifle (Can't take it to my civilian life lol)
PVS-14NVG (Well, I can buy it off the government but then why would I need a $2400 NVG for? Not a peeping tom...)
SAPI Plate (Don't need them as well, can get them anywhere tho)

I would wear them and model it for you, but I have put on 20 pounds since 2005 and these no longer fits me, I can probably wear the UCP pants but both the helmet and and the UCP top and IBA are now too small. :argh: For the record, I am 6 ft 1 (185 cm) and 92 kg. And dont know if you can see the shirt, I was with the Airborne when I wear that, and so I was listed as a light infantry.

And that's it' that's the gear I wear in war for a whole year (that with my M4 and M203 and my PVS-14) and that is probably be enough for a low intensity conflict. If I was in Ukraine (well, I was) and fighting the Russian, I would probably want more stuff, like adding a Burgen and a few more pouch. But for Afghanistan, that's enough.

The thing about Tacticool is, most of the people go for that is people who were never in battle. The gear I hump with is about 30lbs (MICH-2000 + IBA/2 SAPI + Rifle + Spare mag) and that is the minimal loadout and that is enough for any operation, but even then, added that 30lb on me, that would mean I now weight around 110kg, that's hard to walk, not to mention run. And you will most definitely needed mobility in war. Which mean getting stuff that you don't need or use is a big no-no in the field. But it looks cool, people would argue, so did a pair of Rayban. You don't wear rayban in war......

The thing is, whenever I go, my Humvee is no more than 100 ft from me, if I need anything, like rations and breaching tool, I will just get it from the Humvee, so you don't really hump with all those. In Ranger School tho, we were taught to pack "Long Range" pack, that is mostly for LRRP type recon mission, you pack for 3 days ration with double ammo, because resupply would be a problem for you during those recon run (It's still possible for Air Drop but that's another story) And that long range pack (or Ranger Load/Ranger Pack) is around 50lbs (or ~30Kg) that some seriosu load. You have stuff that you don't need but may need or stuff that you usually just store in your transport. (like a breaching shot gun for example) A Ranger Pack would have both mechanical breaching and explosive breaching tool, ropes, VS17 panel and extra socks and rations, grenade and ammo etc.

Special Force have another set of pack, that's based on mission, but what I heard is SF pack can goes up to 70-80lbs. But then you will have something that you definitely don't need like radio set (you use MBITER instead in regular army) Trauma Kid (Which is something a paramedic would carry) and other explosive stuff.

In short, just hump with what you need, that make you less miserable..
Sounds dope even thought most of that went over my head.

I don't what I am doing in this thread. :lol:
 
Thank you for sharing, I’ve always been a fan of the old Interceptor body armour. I’ve got a condor PC and a BlackHawk STRIKE. ( the STRIKE) is compact enough to be worn under a large jacket in winter but still weighs a bit 😂
View attachment 908701
Yeah, that gear show how old school I was, if I can show you the weapon I use (I have picture but I am not gonna show them here) You would be amaze, even Taliban AK have more accessories than my M4... I roll with iron sight, no Eclan, no ACOG, no Crane Stock, no foregrip no PEQ no nothing, that M4 won't be as useful at night because I don't have a PEQ on.

On the other hand, if you look at my rank on my ACU and the IBA, you know both came from pre-2003 you wear with Woodland Camo. I was wearing that vest with my DCU in Iraq when I was with the 3d ID (You see the 3ID patch on my combat lineage arm) Nobody does that except the old guy because you will wear ACU pattern OTV instead of woodland if you were issued OTV with post 2005. Or IOTV post 2005. Old guy do that because usually they survived the first tour with that, and you don't change what's good for you, so they still use that even tho better thing become available.

Condor is a good Plate Carrier light weight, but they got shit soft protection, and IIRC it does not allow side plate like OTV/IBA. I would go for LBT 6094, that's probably twice as expensive but it works better and even lighter weight, my cousin in the Coast Guard wear LBT vest, same as Navy (forgot the model) they were quite good, even with plate inserted. Also, was that soft armour with the Condor and Strike??

now many soldiers I know went for even lighter loadout, PC are a thing in the past. And most people in the Ranger Community I know opt for Battle belt and Load Bearing vest/Chest Rig, added a frontal small plate insert. That's half the operational weight.....

One more thing about gear and loadout is, what you carry doesn't really matter much, DON'T EVER FORGET TO WATER PROOF YOUR GEAR. Otherwise if it got dripping wet in rain or you are going to do some swimming, your gear will be twice as heavy if it was wet...

No offence bro but the name of the operation was and is comical.
Yeah, Military people aren't creative enough to think of names, and that not just applies to operation name, but code name. And a lot of those code name is just weeeeeird and comical.

Sounds dope even thought most of that went over my head.

I don't what I am doing in this thread. :lol:
Nah, all good bro

Loadout is an art. Even people in Regular Army don't know shit about them, they usually just wear what they were told.
 
Last edited:
Yeah, that gear show how old school I was, if I can show you the weapon I use (I have picture but I am not gonna show them here) You would be amaze, even Taliban AK have more accessories than my M4... I roll with iron sight, no Eclan, no ACOG, no Crane Stock, no foregrip no PEQ no nothing, that M4 won't be as useful at night because I don't have a PEQ on.

On the other hand, if you look at my rank on my ACU and the IBA, you know both came from pre-2003 you wear with Woodland Camo. I was wearing that vest with my DCU in Iraq when I was with the 3d ID (You see the 3ID patch on my combat lineage arm) Nobody does that except the old guy because you will wear ACU pattern OTV instead of woodland if you were issued OTV with post 2005. Or IOTV post 2005. Old guy do that because usually they survived the first tour with that, and you don't change what's good for you, so they still use that even tho better thing become available.

Condor is a good Plate Carrier light weight, but they got shit soft protection, and IIRC it does not allow side plate like OTV/IBA. I would go for LBT 6094, that's probably twice as expensive but it works better and even lighter weight, my cousin in the Coast Guard wear LBT vest, same as Navy (forgot the model) they were quite good, even with plate inserted. Also, was that soft armour with the Condor and Strike??

now many soldiers I know went for even lighter loadout, PC are a thing in the past. And most people in the Ranger Community I know opt for Battle belt and Load Bearing vest/Chest Rig, added a frontal small plate insert. That's half the operational weight.....

One more thing about gear and loadout is, what you carry doesn't really matter much, DON'T EVER FORGET TO WATER PROOF YOUR GEAR. Otherwise if it got dripping wet in rain or you are going to do some swimming, your gear will be twice as heavy if it was wet...
Yeah, I noticed the woodland cammo. IMHO, looked far more badass compared to ACU/Multicam.

I have to agree with the cons of Condor, sadly upgrading it right now is out of budget. The soft inserts are for a covert vest which I have only worn twice.

Also excellent point about water proofing.
 
Yeah, I noticed the woodland cammo. IMHO, looked far more badass compared to ACU/Multicam.

I have to agree with the cons of Condor, sadly upgrading it right now is out of budget. The soft inserts are for a covert vest which I have only worn twice.

Also excellent point about water proofing.

Yeah, the woodland camo looks more badass and lethal than ACU or OCP, it's like "I know it look different than my uniform and we are in the desert, and we don't care..." LOL :rofl:

Seriously, I think I was issued with a ACU OTV as well, it should either be somewhere back in the US or I left it in my base housing when I move out. But I would prefer the woodland pattern, It just looks better and mostly I still miss my DCU, I handed them over when I get my ACU....now they are extremely hard to get in private market, you have reproduction but those aren't as good as the original one. Plus I have history and memory on that DCU uniform set, those can't be replaced.

fs4JGDl.jpg


(PS: NONE OF THEM ARE ME)

I feel you with the Condor, I would wear soft insert if I wear condor as well, as I said they don't provide much soft cover. I think they were made from strengthen nylon and that's it. But I cannot be sure. And I also feel you for the budget part. I mean, we can't all be rich airsofter that fork out thousands and thousands of dollars just to look the part. I mean, if there is a law the army can raid Airsofter home for gear, we will all be better equipped....I still remember, when I was in, there were all these effort back home, in the US raising money to buy gear for our troop, from ballistic shield or deflector on a Humvee to better Camalbak or Combat Boots. I mean, for a private earning $2100 a month, with mouth to feed, arming yourself is difficult and you can't really depends on Uncle Sam's stuff because they were made by the cheapest bidder. I personally helped a few fellow soldier buy gear so they can live thru their deployment.

I am serious, if you need an upgrade and you can't afford it now, I will send you a LBT vest if you just send me an address (it doesn't have to be yours) I mean it's $600 for me, it's nothing, but it may be life and death for you.

And finally about the Waterproofing. Hehe, like the sugar stuff, I didn't learn it until I was in Ranger School...
 

Attachments

  • fs4JGDl.jpg
    fs4JGDl.jpg
    51.6 KB · Views: 22
No amount of gear load out will protect troops if the are riding Toyota into an ambush, not properly trained and are complacent because they are drained due to lack of recovery time.

1672534574690.png


The greatest enemy in a combat situation is not necessarily the enemy on the other side of the fence–it is ourselves! Keeping your weapon clean, your vehicle maintained, or your body awake, could be a life and death decision. And these were conscious decisions made every day. Fighting complacency is difficult. It requires discipline, patience, and relentless attention to detail. The fundamentals are boring, but they are often the most important.

I just watched bullet ridden FC or Army Toyota with blood all over it.

For some strange fucking reason, degenerate in GHQ can’t fathom simple fucking tactic to protect their troops.

1. Divide AO into sectors and grid. Launch battalion and company level reconnaissance drone. Constant surveillance from the air of suspicion movement.

2. Always send a small reconnaissance drone ahead of petrol to scan the area.

3. FFs give them MRAP or something equivalent so that they have a chance in an ambush.

4. Train, Train,Train and look after their welfare. Don’t just throw troops in a burning deserts, until they become tired, bored and drained and lower their guard.
 
Yeah, the woodland camo looks more badass and lethal than ACU or OCP, it's like "I know it look different than my uniform and we are in the desert, and we don't care..." LOL :rofl:

Seriously, I think I was issued with a ACU OTV as well, it should either be somewhere back in the US or I left it in my base housing when I move out. But I would prefer the woodland pattern, It just looks better and mostly I still miss my DCU, I handed them over when I get my ACU....now they are extremely hard to get in private market, you have reproduction but those aren't as good as the original one. Plus I have history and memory on that DCU uniform set, those can't be replaced.

View attachment 908735

(PS: NONE OF THEM ARE ME)

I feel you with the Condor, I would wear soft insert if I wear condor as well, as I said they don't provide much soft cover. I think they were made from strengthen nylon and that's it. But I cannot be sure. And I also feel you for the budget part. I mean, we can't all be rich airsofter that fork out thousands and thousands of dollars just to look the part. I mean, if there is a law the army can raid Airsofter home for gear, we will all be better equipped....I still remember, when I was in, there were all these effort back home, in the US raising money to buy gear for our troop, from ballistic shield or deflector on a Humvee to better Camalbak or Combat Boots. I mean, for a private earning $2100 a month, with mouth to feed, arming yourself is difficult and you can't really depends on Uncle Sam's stuff because they were made by the cheapest bidder. I personally helped a few fellow soldier buy gear so they can live thru their deployment.

I am serious, if you need an upgrade and you can't afford it now, I will send you a LBT vest if you just send me an address (it doesn't have to be yours) I mean it's $600 for me, it's nothing, but it may be life and death for you.

And finally about the Waterproofing. Hehe, like the sugar stuff, I didn't learn it until I was in Ranger School...
You should post more in the Pakistan Army section. The other sections are just full of children squabbles over politics and petty argument from Putin Groupies that are sad the ruskies got their backside handed to them 😂.
 
An interesting interaction with @Goritoes in another thread motivated me to talk about this. Firstly, polite warning, this will be a long post so you may want to take your time to digest it.

For some reason a few people on this forum and elsewhere to be honest seem to think more is better, and whilst there is an argument to be had to "being risk averse" the current model of scalability and high mobility adopted by Pakistan Army works just fine and is battle testes - so why re-invent the wheel so to speak?

In this post I will aim to put forward my argument for "less is more", a bibliopgraphy of sources to compile this post will be posted in the footnotes should anyone be bored to engage in further reading. :lol:

Lets start by addressing the elephant in the room: The Tacticool "Operator" vs the professional Pakistani front line solider. Now for some reason when people think of what a "professional solider" looks like thier expectation is instantly:
e4a.jpg


Whereas the reality is much more minalmistic:
d1831f94-5f05-43be-8bf0-e01ea8c82081_w1080_h608_s.jpg


Even with this trimmed down heavily scalable approach the average load a Pakistani solider carries is as follows:


  • Body armour: Weight 11kg (e) with plates
  • SMG 4.3 kg [loaded weight]
  • Loaded magazine @0.85kg x 2 = 1.7kg
  • Helmet weight 1.25kg

That is an estimated 18.25kg of kit. Based on the above model and given that the average Pakistani male is 66Kg in weight, the average solider carries 27% of their bodyweight in equipment AT ALL TIMES.

This brings us to the interesting question of "a soliders load". Soliders have always struggled with the weight of carrying their weapons and equipment. Roman Legionnaires on the march carried 80-pound loads on long spiked stakes slung across their shoulders. Byzantine infantrymen found themselves with similar loads. Their ration carts and pack horses trailed behind them but did little to relieve their individual loads. During the American Revolution, from Boston to Saratoga. British soldiers fought their loads in addition to the American colonists.

In the Normandy invasion of 1944, when American infantrymen with 80-pound rucksacks dropped from their landing craft into the rough surf off Omaha Beach, many of them never made it to the beach. Many soldiers fell into deep holes while wading in, and their already heavy equipment absorbed so much more weight in water that they could not get up. Others managed to crawl as far as the shoreline where they collapsed. There, overcome with exhaustion, many of them drowned.

In his book Titled "The Soldier's Load and The Mobility of A Nation"
Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall argued No logistical system is sound unless its first principle is enlightened conservation of the power of the individual fighter.[1]

In his paper in 1987 then Captain and Lt. Gen. William C. Mayville stated "Soldiers who march into battle carrying heavy loads do not usually perform well in combat. Their loads drain them of their strength, reduce their mobility, and slow their minds."[2]

In an interesting study carried out by the British Army using "Hybrid Formation Training" exercises during Operation HERRICK[Afghanistan], showed that soliders overburdned with kit not only fatigued quicker, but their accuracy greater deminished based on the amount of equipment they carried:

View attachment 908432
Source[3]

In his book Urgent Fury - The Battle for Grenada Mark Adkin in interview with an anonymous yet decorated solider who recounts: We attacked to secure the airhead. We were like slow moving turtles. My ruck weighed 120 pounds … There were all those guys sitting on the side of the road with IV tubes in them. There's no way the guys could [have gone on]. [4]
Professional soldiers and military historians over the past 30 years have addressed this issue at great length. In The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation, S.L.A. Marshall cites three fallacious beliefs that lead to overloading.

The first of these fallacies is that large amounts of ammunition on a soldier's back gives him greater confidence in battle. Marshall contends that combat has never supported this myth, that soldiers will fight to the last round when necessary.

The second fallacy is that shortages in ammunition cause "tactical disarrangements" and that such shortages are therefore to be avoided. But Marshall cites the defense of Bastogne during the Battle of the Bulge in which soldiers willingly shared their limited supplies to survive eight days of encirclement.

The third fallacy holds that a soldier must be equipped for every possible contingency. Marshall blames staff officers for promoting this notion and argues that such thinking smothers and exhausts soldiers before they ever reach the battlefield. Certainly, the soldiers "sitting on the side of the road" in Grenada would have agreed.

In his book The Mobility of One Man - Brigadier General Samuel Lyman Atwood Marshall gave an example of the European Theater duringWWII, druing which he wrote "the basic individual ammunition load for the paratrooper was eighty rounds for his carbine or MI, and two hand grenades. When the paratrooper jumped into Normandy on June 6, 1944, he also carried these things: 1 rifle and carrier part, 1 English mine, 6 packages of K-ration, 1 impregnated jump suit, 1 complete uniform, 1 steel helmet and liner, 1 knitted cap, 1 change of underwear, 2 changes of sox, 1 entrenching tool, 1 gas mask, 1 first-aid pack, 1 spoon, 2 gas pro tective covers, 1 field bag with suspenders, 1 packet of sulfa tablets, 1 escape kit, and a set of toilet articles.

Despite all that weight, the most salient characteristic in operations by these forces was without doubt the high mobility of all ranks. That was because most of them used common sense. They jumped heavy but they moved light. Once on the ground, most of them ditched every piece of equipment they considered unnecessary. They did this without order, and often before they had engaged any of the enemy or joined up with any of their comrades. It was a reflex to a course of training which had stressed that the main thing was to keep going"[5]


Among other studies on the subject, in 1962 the United States Army Combat Development Agency collected and analyzed statistics from World War II and Korea relating to the soldier's fighting load. The study concluded that the soldier's load had a direct effect on his performance in combat, that his mobility was "degraded to an unacceptable degree by his prescribed load." [6]

The agency further concluded that infantrymen, who represented 80 percent of all battle casualties in those wars, should be given special equipment and clothing to meet their unique combat requirements. The study recommended that the maximum fighting load be restricted to 40 pounds or 18Kg and that "officers at all echelons receive a thorough education and indoctrination in the problem of overloading the infantry combat soldier."

The introduction of helicopters and transport vehicles for example, are major logistical steps towards reducing the solider's load. But other tecnnological developments such as NVGs, encrypted radios, Laser Designators and the sort put back the weight these logistical systems remove.

Another major issue becomes CASEVAC, in the British Army review Number 173 - Autumn 2018, one outcome from HFT(Hybrid Formation Training) exercises was to study how to improve CASEVAC in their sections (buddy rescue) some of which were carrying in excess of 80kg of load.

The result was a change in formation of sections to deliberately "off load" on section with the capacity to "stretcher carry" one or more casualty on foot for 2km: [Notice the magical 18kg re-appearing in the graph below]
View attachment 908435

Similarly the US. Army Infantry School now recommends a maximum load of 30 to 40 percent of a soldier's body weight.
Training light should involve risk, just as fighting light involves risk. The solution to lighter loads is risk analysis, in which a commander makes an accurate tactical assessment and calculates what is really needed for each mission.A soldier's minimum essential load includes his uniform, assigned weapon, and load carrying equipment.. These items are usually identified in a unit's standing operating procedures (SOP).
Risk-Assessment-Matrix-in-Qualitative-Risk-Analysis.jpg

Admittedly, risk analysis will not bring the proper balance of load and agility to certain types of infantrymen simply because of the equipment that goes with their jobs.

The solution to this particular problem requires imaginative thinking on the part of commanders. It requires that portions of these soldiers' loads be distributed to other members of the unit—water, meals, and sleeping equipment, for example. These adjustments themselves are risk assessments, but failing to make them threatens the survivability of the men who must carry these heavy items.

Strong legs and a good back are a soldier's most precious resources. They are the key to his success and survival on the battlefield. But putting a heavy load on those legs and that back robs him of his mobility and agility. It steals his strength and denies him the ability to think quickly.

Thank you for reading.


@Signalian @PanzerKiel
[1] The Soldier's Load and the Mobility of a Nation - S.L.A Marshall - Reprinted 1980
[2] A Soldier's Load (1987) - Captain William C. Mayville, Vol. 77, No. 1, Infantry, Jan-Feb 1987
[3] https://www.army.mod.uk/umbraco/Surface/Download/Get/11615
[4] Mark Adkin, Urgent Fury - The Battle for Grenada - The Truth Behind the Largest U.S. Military Operation since Vietnam Hardcover – 19 Oct. 1989
[5] The Mobility of One Man - S.L.A Marshall - Reprinted 1980
[6]The 1962 Howze Board and Army Combat Developments - J.A. Stockfish https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/2007/MR435.pdf
I have posted my gear the last time. This time I am posting my wife gear, she was a lawyer for the Swedish Miltary and were deployed to both Iraq and Afghanistan (as part of UN Mission in Iraq and part of ISAF in Afghan) I am not going to divulge more because my wife don't really like to talk about her military service. And I respect her decision, but I can show you what a "Non-Combatant" in War dressed.

20230101_210352.jpg


Swedish M90K Desert Based Uniform

20230101_210502.jpg


Strike Vest 2000 on top of M90/K (Missing a battle belt)

20230101_210528.jpg


Helmet 90 with Blue UN paint scheme (Yes, that is a bottle of cotton swap holding the helmet.....).

This kit completed with Battle belt (again, missing), Beret in place of Helmet 90, and Desert Fox Combat Bots (I have forgot to mention the Combat Boots US wore in Middle East is Gore-tex Boots made by either Wellco, McRae or Bellevue (I wore Bellevue)

For Combatant (Infantry, Artillery or Calvary) you also wear Ballistic Plate Carrier under the Strike Vest. The weapon of choice is Ak4 and Ak5 (which is HK G3 or FN FNC). The entire weight of the gear (without PC) is about 15 kg, which is about 32lbs.

4ecb773caa17e415492183b28415e85f.jpg


457782_366_200.jpg
 
Last edited:
You should post more in the Pakistan Army section. The other sections are just full of children squabbles over politics and petty argument from Putin Groupies that are sad the ruskies got their backside handed to them 😂.
I don't know man, every section have their interest, yes, there are quite a lot of idiots around in other section, but then it's just like life I guess, you have to get through those idiots before getting to the stuff that you want.

I will post more on Pakistan Army section, or at least be on look out on interesting topic.
 
I don't know man, every section have their interest, yes, there are quite a lot of idiots around in other section, but then it's just like life I guess, you have to get through those idiots before getting to the stuff that you want.

I will post more on Pakistan Army section, or at least be on look out on interesting topic.
Yes please do 😊. Also sorry I forgot to wish you, but Happy New Year to you and yours.
 
LMG updates are long over due.
I would argue MG (light and heavy) updates should take precedence over assault rifle updates/replacement. When we have a badass MG covering the troops, it instantly increases all troop efficiency. Afghan frontier should have more LMG emplacements, defensive strategy against fire raids should revolve around bringing LMG fire to bear rapidly, and lesser assault rifle armed troops exposed on sentry duty. It isn't called "Infantry ki rani" for nothing...
 
I would argue MG (light and heavy) updates should take precedence over assault rifle updates/replacement. When we have a badass MG covering the troops, it instantly increases all troop efficiency. Afghan frontier should have more LMG emplacements, defensive strategy against fire raids should revolve around bringing LMG fire to bear rapidly, and lesser assault rifle armed troops exposed on sentry duty. It isn't called "Infantry ki rani" for nothing...
There is a reason why we don't arm every single soldier with SAW......LMG is kind of pointless in real firefight....

We are not talking about Call of Duty, where external factor like bullet load and replacement barrel didnt comes into play, and there is no magical accuracy on LMG that you can actually aim down the sight. You basically just use it as it was intended to do, and that's pump a lot of lead downrange.

Fire(power) management is one very important factor in any firefight, because bullet is heavy and it comes with limited quantity, which mean you need to be careful what you are going with the bullet, you want to put them on target not just spray them around, which is what LMG does.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top Bottom