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Blast in Quetta kills 84 Shias, injures 200

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You misunderstand in what sense this is an "open" forum - please be assured that the rules of this forum do not include restricting you from responding to the question, given that, "There are scores of Shia's and Sunni's in other countries - India has a large Shia population and much much larger Sunni population - why isn't Saudi petro dollars working in other places except Pakistan? - the whole system is flawed"

Please do respond to this interesting question - I don't think anyone is expecting anything other than your sense as to why this happens in Pakistan, but not in India, or Indonesia or Turkiye

1. You clearly over-looked shia-sunni power struggle in other countries, do i have to remind you Iraq, Syria, Bahrain, Afghanistan. Do i have to remind you Uzbek terrorists?

2. Regarding India - a) Despite of corruption their politicians are nationalist, their civil institutes are strong enough to manage internal problems and have proper check & balance. Their army is fully spared for borders. b) shia-sunni clashes still exist there (although small) c) Recently KSA has started investing there, so wait for results

3. Same for Indonesia & Turkey - their civil govt. and institues are capable enough to provide security to their citizens, Armies are for external threats not for naka bandis and patrolling in cities.
 
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Stone pelters aren't financed by KSA, that must be the internal animosity that exists between the two sects and it only happens during processions when even the Shias give back what they get at least its kept under control by the state's security apparatus and its not an everyday affair unlike the unbridled ongoing violence in Pakistan that surprisingly is not being taken seriously by the authorities.

In Pakistan things started from speeches than harsh arguments than stones.........
 
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There are no two opinions about the disaster the PPP has been with regard to governance - however, the particular problem of wahabi petrodollars precedes the PPP government. When the same point is put to our Wahabi members, they advise us to look wthin ourselves for our shortcomings and not place any kind of responsibility for the aions of Wahabis on Wahabism - indeed, when the "religion of peace and forgiveness" crowd is approached, they too say it's has nothing to do with them.

Pointing out that ISI and Armed forces are responsible for the security of Pakistan, leads to deflection to the police, to the railways, to the govt, to the credentials of the Balouchistan Governor.

See, it's really rather simple, regardless of the govt, agencies and institutions have a job to do - can you really imagine that RAW, MOSSAD, Shin Bet, IB, Muhabarat could ever argue that they do not do their job because they think the government of the time is not to their liking???


You are right in saying that it is not just the present PPP government and not just any one institution. The whole country is adrift and flailing.
 
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Pakistan has been in a state of civil war since 1998 - This reality has been kept from the public - Why? because the civil war is not just about the Wahabi and the rest of us, the armed forces are part of the Pakistan society and have the same kinds of fissures, but these fissures are intensified given the armed forces in particular the ISI and army were particular targets.

Many of our Pakistani posters seem to think that the expression of this reality is some sort expression of hate, whereas it is exactly the opposite -- ISI and Army, and Air Force and Navy have been infiltrated - it is the reason why ou have not seen for the last 12 years, the ability and willingness to put a stop to militancy - it's not just support in society, it's support inside the ISI and armed forces - if you choose to not be conscious of this dangerous reality, you cheat yourself and your compatriots.
 
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1. You clearly over-looked shia-sunni power struggle in other countries, do i have to remind you Iraq, Syria, Bahrain, Afghanistan. Do i have to remind you Uzbek terrorists?

2. Regarding India - a) Despite of corruption their politicians are nationalist, their civil institutes are strong enough to manage internal problems and have proper check & balance. Their army is fully spared for borders. b) shia-sunni clashes still exist there (although small) c) Recently KSA has started investing there, so wait for results

3. Same for Indonesia & Turkey - their civil govt. and institues are capable enough to provide security to their citizens, Armies are for external threats not for naka bandis and patrolling in cities.

You offer a very good explanation, presenting it purely as a law and order issue gotten out of hand due to broken institutions.

OTOH thats just one more way of saying the same thing, that your institutions are broken, that these institutions with their unchecked unaccoutable power and access to dangerous technologies is a threat not only to pakistan but to the entire region.

Its just that the first view is internal, the other external. But essentially the same.

External parties are considering their solutions against the threat. But thats a different viewpoint and objective from what pakistanis would find acceptable. Not sure what solution pakistanis agree on though. There is too much ideology and too little common sense.
 
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Pakistan has been in a state of civil war since 1998 - This reality has been kept from the public - Why? because the civil war is not just about the Wahabi and the rest of us, the armed forces are part of the Pakistan society and have the same kinds of fissures, but these fissures are intensified given the armed forces in particular the ISI and army were particular targets.

Many of our Pakistani posters seem to think that the expression of this reality is some sort expression of hate, whereas it is exactly the opposite -- ISI and Army, and Air Force and Navy have been infiltrated - it is the reason why ou have not seen for the last 12 years, the ability and willingness to put a stop to militancy - it's not just support in society, it's support inside the ISI and armed forces - if you choose to not be conscious of this dangerous reality, you cheat yourself and your compatriots.

So what in your views is the solution? '79 style Iranian revolution, execute every politician and military generals? Or has it gone too far to be stopped now?
 
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Pakistan has been in a state of civil war since 1998 - This reality has been kept from the public - Why? because the civil war is not just about the Wahabi and the rest of us, the armed forces are part of the Pakistan society and have the same kinds of fissures, but these fissures are intensified given the armed forces in particular the ISI and army were particular targets.

Many of our Pakistani posters seem to think that the expression of this reality is some sort expression of hate, whereas it is exactly the opposite -- ISI and Army, and Air Force and Navy have been infiltrated - it is the reason why ou have not seen for the last 12 years, the ability and willingness to put a stop to militancy - it's not just support in society, it's support inside the ISI and armed forces - if you choose to not be conscious of this dangerous reality, you cheat yourself and your compatriots.

The public is painfully aware of the state of civil war that you describe. Deaths, injuries, bomb blasts, security check points, traffic blockades, the list goes on. Combine these problems with increasing economic pressures and resource shortages and you have the boiling cauldron that is present day Pakistan.
 
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There are no two opinions about the disaster the PPP has been with regard to governance - however, the particular problem of wahabi petrodollars precedes the PPP government. When the same point is put to our Wahabi members, they advise us to look wthin ourselves for our shortcomings and not place any kind of responsibility for the aions of Wahabis on Wahabism - indeed, when the "religion of peace and forgiveness" crowd is approached, they too say it's has nothing to do with them.

Pointing out that ISI and Armed forces are responsible for the security of Pakistan, leads to deflection to the police, to the railways, to the govt, to the credentials of the Balouchistan Governor.

See, it's really rather simple, regardless of the govt, agencies and institutions have a job to do - can you really imagine that RAW, MOSSAD, Shin Bet, IB, Muhabarat could ever argue that they do not do their job because they think the government of the time is not to their liking???

Try to look at it through a different dynamic :

None of this was happening in the '90s when the so-called Petrodollars were flowing in full force, when both Saudi sponsored religious seminaries & Iranian Cultural Centres were in full swing competing with each other. Why ? Because despite our failure to check that intrusion we had a grip on things because we weren't nearly as preoccupied as we are right now !

Now Pakistan's International Standing is in shambles, our economy has nose dived to depths that one shudders to contemplate, whatever remained of our institutions are either crumbling or already derelict to the point of no return ! All of those are more than contributory towards an increase in violence because no economy equals more lawlessness & no institutions to deal with that leads to a sh*t storm !

Unfortunately in our case this was exasperated by us joining the US led War on Terror that was perceived most negatively in Pakistan from disapproval to outright violence against the State. And that is exactly why this Jihad Narrative was provided to the TTP to recruit their foot soldiers from across the length & breadth of Pakistan; I've heard Maulvis saying - Pakistan provides the US supply routes & bases to continue on their fight in Afghanistan & in that fight the US has killed many innocent Muslims. What follows is that Pakistan is accessory to murder & its justified to pick up arms against the State !
Now most Pakistanis by & large don't think along those lines but the very worst element do - Logic is after all extremely malleable ! Our failure lies in not giving a coherent, easily understood counter-narrative to that narrative & this is where everyone from the media to our civil society to our Government & the Armed Forces have terribly failed ! They just couldn't appreciate the chronic importance of perception. A disgruntled Baloch Youth or a disgruntled Pakistani from elsewhere isn't going to go on a fact finding mission to try to understand what 'comprises' & 'necessities' are in International Relations & what the probable effect of saying a 'flat NO' to US supply lines would have been for our economy, our future & perhaps even our very existence in the due course of time. Hes going to listen to the Molvi, to the Sardar & to other like-minded individuals & target the nearest enemy which happens to be a Hazara, a Punjabi Settler, a Pakistani Soldier, the Pakistani civilians who brought this Government to power, members of the State machinery etc.

Had we been able to influence popular perception on a town-to-town level as was required of us we probably wouldn't be half as bad as we are right now !

Right now the Government is dysfunctional & busy filling up their coffers without a care in the world whilst the army is fighting on multiple fronts without being able to be wholly successfully always or even decisively on a single front ! That coupled with the failure of our economy to rehabilitate these areas is crippling us in a one step forward two step back approach !

This same sh*t was happening in Iraq & the same was happening in Afghanistan in the early '90s - The vacuum created in Pakistan is deafening ! The Army can't juggle so much in so little time without the backing of the civilian apparatus - They don't have any ! The Police is politicized beyond belief, every development project is eaten from the inside & those charged with Governance would rather make a couple of bucks & send them abroad than to actually come up with something !

The ISI isn't omnipotent & omniscient & neither is the army but claiming that somehow the influx of all the aforementioned sh*t thats brewing is evidence enough for complicity is a poor case in my opinion.
 
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Ḥashshāshīn;3929832 said:
So what in your views is the solution? '79 style Iranian revolution, execute every politician and military generals? Or has it gone too far to be stopped now?

The first thing to do is to admit that you have a problem - the second thing is to be clear as to what the problem is, in it's particulars, and third targeting and decapitation of the leadership of the militant intellectual and operations leadership.

We do not need revolution, and evolution is bleeding us dry -- we need to resolve to act regardless of obstacles, however, we cannot act unless we get 1,2, and 3 right in that order.
 
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I wonder why Iran see it with pleasure, either Iran should denounce tall claims of being voice of Shias in the world or ask Hazara community to be take refuge in Iran.

Ayatollahs, are you watching this ? shame on you!

All their Islam pasand rhetorics are saved for Kashmir , not a single word uttered on daily shia massacres in Pakistan.....they'll support Hizbollah but not their next door shia brethren who look upto Iran and ayatollah as their religious leader... after all muslims killing muslim is a fair deal .
 
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All their Islam pasand rhetorics are saved for Kashmir , not a single word uttered on daily shia massacres in Pakistan.....they'll support Hizbollah but not their next door shia brethren who look upto Iran and ayatollah as their religious leader... after all muslims killing muslim is a fair deal .

Khameini sent a condolence message when 100 shias were murdered in quetta last month. I don't think they want to do more than that and further isolate themselves by antagonising pakistani power centre(s).
 
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Try to look at it through a different dynamic :

None of this was happening in the '90s when the so-called Petrodollars were flowing in full force, when both Saudi sponsored religious seminaries & Iranian Cultural Centres were in full swing competing with each other. Why ? Because despite our failure to check that intrusion we had a grip on things because we weren't nearly as preoccupied as we are right now ! .

Rather that time you had an enemy on which you can effectively re-direct the full force of the mujaheddin through the porous LoC. Now once the LoC is sealed , pressure builds up on the other side and it looks for any available vent to escape. Those vents are the voiceless and defenceless Pakistanis.
 
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Rather that time you had an enemy on which you can effectively re-direct the full force of the mujaheddin through the porous LoC. Now once the LoC is sealed , pressure builds up on the other side and it looks for any available vent to escape. Those vents are the voiceless and defenceless Pakistanis.

Good Story !:tup:
 
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Rather that time you had an enemy on which you can effectively re-direct the full force of the mujaheddin through the porous LoC. Now once the LoC is sealed , pressure builds up on the other side and it looks for any available vent to escape. Those vents are the voiceless and defenceless Pakistanis.

There is indeed some truth in that. As soon as the Afghan tap was closed, Kashmir tap was opened. Now the Kashmir tap is closed, the water is indeed overflowing.
 
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