BJP to welcome foreign defence investment

[axisofevil]

Definitely! The management of DRDO in the recent years caused the most pain in the a... for India, but I don't see how ex forces personell can change that, without the necessary experience and knowledge to manage a company? They surely will bring more operational know how and the developments could be focused more to what the forces needs, but that's not all a manager has to do!
You can add more personell of the forces in important roles of certain projects, but the company itself must be lead from people that knows about the company, about how it works and about what is necessary to improve it.




Delivering something is one thing, claiming that they are able to develop it is the other and DRDO is "only" claiming but fail to deliver. They wanted to show them as a world class company, but in reality they are far away from that and sadly HAL follows that way as it seems.



That's not how it works! A stock company is dependent on financial success, not on good products for the forces. The Dhruv for example is highly important for India and it's forces, the export success however is limited, therefor it is not beneficiary from the point of view of shareholders. So should we fire the project managers for not creating enough benefits, or should we support them to keep developing varients of the Dhruv that will help to secure India?

I agree that accountability is the biggest issue of the PSUs, but privat companies or privatizing PSUs is not the solution, since accountability for them is different and aimed at financial success only!
We need MoD to take a stronger stand on the PSU heads and to guide them propperly, that's what Antony did in the recent years and what caused obvious improvements in the LCA project for example.



I have no problem that these companies makes money, I even want them to build stuff for foreign countries too like HAL is building parts for various aero partners. But I don't want them to divert their focus only on fields where they can create the maximum money, but to remain focused on what is needed for the defence of India!
The defence of the country must have priority for the PSUs, exports and financial success can only be secondary targets.




Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Cobham, Nexter, Gulfstream etc are all private firms.

And they are the world's largest in what they do.

There is your theory of 'greed and profit'. Down the drain.

Not really, it just proves it! The US weapon lobby is the most greedy and powerfull in the world and they use their power to make financial success in first place! Same goes for Airbus, Thales, BAE..., that's why Airbus wanted less government share now. The problem is only, without the orders of their governments, they can't survive either, that's why BAE is in trouble now and why the US industries are hit by the budget cuts too.
India has privat industry and should keep inviting them to take a higher stack in the defence industry, but the PSUs must remain under government control, to provide India with what is needed and not with what sells the best.




Maybe, but they don't have to be equally good, they only have to deliver what is needed. Currently they aren't delivering at all and that is the problem, not if they are as good as TATA.

You seem to be very naive. YOu have to admit there are fundamental issues with our PSU's, otheriwse you cannot start to correct it.

 

[Tshering22]

Definitely! The management of DRDO in the recent years caused the most pain in the a... for India, but I don't see how ex forces personnel can change that, without the necessary experience and knowledge to manage a company? They surely will bring more operational know how and the developments could be focused more to what the forces needs, but that's not all a manager has to do!

You can add more personnel of the forces in important roles of certain projects, but the company itself must be lead from people that knows about the company, about how it works and about what is necessary to improve it.

Well then the only way to deal with is to put businessmen and strategic entrepreneurs in power rather than idiotic bureaucrats who know jack about either making money and not at all stuff about defence.

Delivering something is one thing, claiming that they are able to develop it is the other and DRDO is "only" claiming but fail to deliver. They wanted to show them as a world class company, but in reality they are far away from that and sadly HAL follows that way as it seems.

Everyone knows that. You think they have any reputation in the foreign lands? The defence contractors there must be laughing their butts off once they return to their countries. The foreign companies we are talking about are world class. These guys have the substance delivered to prove their mettle rather than stupid archaic english from the 50s that is written everywhere on DRDO's or any other defence PSU's site.

The only reason they do that is because they know they cannot be fired.

That's not how it works! A stock company is dependent on financial success, not on good products for the forces.

Here's a simple equation I will tell you:

Quality products + Accountability = better profit margins to be reinvested for research = high employee morale + better Financial returns + better R&D + Clearer accountability.

The Dhruv for example is highly important for India and it's forces, the export success however is limited, therefor it is not beneficiary from the point of view of shareholders.

Dhruv is a capable platform. Its export success is not good because of something called 'product support', which even to the IA is terrible.

Today's game is all about after sales support, parts supply and maintenance and cost management assistance. HAL gives NOTHING. No timely delivery of maintenance parts, no timely dispatch of required components and no service at all except the initial one year.

That's the reason why it is not becoming a success.

Another reason is that where is it promoted in India?

Is HAL doing anything to promote Dhruv? Have you seen how US and EU promote their helicopters? Compare the difference in the class of marketing both do. Dhruv's capability is higher than many of their similar aircraft and is cheaper but still loses out. It is all marketing power and the ability to deliver support to the customer.

Something that sarkari 9-5s will not understand. It is a business management skill.

So should we fire the project managers for not creating enough benefits, or should we support them to keep developing varients of the Dhruv that will help to secure India?

Fire the incompetent decision makers who cannot distinguish between a helicopter and a fixed wing.

The scientists and project leads do their jobs but it is the bureaucrats sitting on top of them that are the problem. Those who handle project finances and decide what to allocate where.

And for heaven's sake don't tell me IAS is the criteria. This is not a Bournvita Quiz Contest for GK we are talking about.

We are talking about India's defence requirements and the requirements of our friendly countries to whom we have sold our helicopters.

Remember, weapons is all about business. Nothing is personal.

Until that changes, we will only be as much a world power in military sense as Gulf countries are: import power. That's all.

I agree that accountability is the biggest issue of the PSUs, but privat companies or privatizing PSUs is not the solution, since accountability for them is different and aimed at financial success only!

Newsflash for you mate: Financial success is what defines the foundation of a company's ability to take R&D to new levels.
Ever wondered why Boeing is the world's largest?

Because they do business. They make stuff that is of class, invest money and earn profits in order to further their research and make better stuff by innovating.

Government is not an endless treasury of money. It has limits and it has other things to do. If the 9-5 sarkaris cannot function properly, they SHOULD be fired.

We cannot keep our defence industrial capability a hostage to their lazy and archaic mentality.

We need MoD to take a stronger stand on the PSU heads and to guide them propperly, that's what Antony did in the recent years and what caused obvious improvements in the LCA project for example.

An LCA that till now has seen no light of induction. Yeah.

The result- is what most of us Indians fail to see and we focus so much on the process.

That's the problem.

I have no problem that these companies makes money, I even want them to build stuff for foreign countries too like HAL is building parts for various aero partners. But I don't want them to divert their focus only on fields where they can create the maximum money, but to remain focused on what is needed for the defence of India!

Read my above equation about money, weapons, research and investment.

The defence of the country must have priority for the PSUs, exports and financial success can only be secondary targets.

Exports cover your R&D costs, giving you the economic cushion to keep the best weapons for yourself.

Not really, it just proves it! The US weapon lobby is the most greedy and powerfull in the world and they use their power to make financial success in first place! Same goes for Airbus, Thales, BAE..., that's why Airbus wanted less government share now. The problem is only, without the orders of their governments, they can't survive either, that's why BAE is in trouble now and why the US industries are hit by the budget cuts too.
India has privat industry and should keep inviting them to take a higher stack in the defence industry, but the PSUs must remain under government control, to provide India with what is needed and not with what sells the best.

What you call greed has made these people conquer the world and lead it in technology while Indian PSUs are still stuck giving bheekh to their lazy-a$$ middle level decision makers.

Maybe, but they don't have to be equally good, they only have to deliver what is needed. Currently they aren't delivering at all and that is the problem, not if they are as good as TATA.

I'll give you instance to think about:

Ever heard a colonel 'say please do this' to a lance naik on duty?

Why do you think that's never the case? Think.

Danda ghumae bina to gadha bhi kaam nahi karta, insaan to kya cheez hai.

That is why.

 

[Reviewer21]

But making compulsory partnering with Indian firms is always applicable with PRIVATE firms. TATA, Mahindra all were private and we saw the fantastic results of that. Partnering with stupid PSUs and sarkari agencies will mean that foreign firms will terminate partnerships out of pure frustration of the lethargy, inefficiency and bureaucracy that defines the sarkari establishments.

True. Partnering with PSUs is like Digging your own grave. It'll be perfect to partner with private indian cos. Which will indeed help TATA and Mahindra alike Companies to mature and develop their Defence sectors.

For that, first thing we need to do is, open DRDO, HAL, ADA etc into joint stock companies with holding in the hands of Indian citizens only. Only Indian citizens must be allowed to buy its shares and the annual board meeting must be directly answerable to stock holders that WANT return for their money. This will be in stark contrast to the bottomless pit these stupid agencies with their bureaucrat managers and heads are going currently.

Hmmmm. I Guess this will make them work, but not sure if govt will do that. These very own people of DRDO, HAL will protest against it. so i think we should rather let them face the competition and make them work hard and compete with privates this will be like "Hitting two targets, with one arrow". And this will eventually force them to work else no one will give a damn about these PSUs and will at last shut down. And anyways it's not like they(DRDO, HAL) aren't doing anything. By now whatever Indigenous we have is all because of DRDO and HAL like PSUs

Until MOD releases the artificial pressure on private firms, things will continue to go the same way for Indian defence industry.

IMO there's no need to create artificial pressure on Priavte firms, for instance look at TATA, Mahindra and AL, they themselves are dying to get into Defence asap and earn like Boeing and Sukhoi. But because of lack of know-how these guys aren't able to attract enough deals and here's where foreign firms will help them.

Rest has been answered by @sancho

 

[sancho]

YOu have to admit there are fundamental issues with our PSU's.

That's what I said in the first sentence of the part you quoted, maybe you should read it once more and try to understand it.

Well then the only way to deal with is to put businessmen and strategic entrepreneurs in power rather than idiotic bureaucrats who know jack about either making money and not at all stuff about defence.

I wouldn't mind that, everybody that has proven it's capabilities in any field can be a win as a minister, but similarly, I would prefer businessmen and strategic entrepreneurs in power of DRDO and HAL, that can propperly manage these companies, so why not start there?

You think they have any reputation in the foreign lands?

Yes, a bad one! When you hear about defence industry and India, you automatically hear about delays, low quality, because the India is still considered as a 3rd world country in general. To get out of this, you have to come up with products that don't have to be world class, but reliable, cost-effective and operationally proven. The Dhruv is a good step in that direction and if we had remained with small steps to improve, I'm sure our reputation would be better by now. Sadly our defence industry thought they can do it all and that they don't need help..., the results are Arjun, LCA, Saras or the trainers and instead of improving us and our reputation we went the other way.
But just like we trashed our reputation on our own, it is up to us to build it up again, but we have to change the attitude of the industry heads from dreaming big and failing even bigger, to think rational, but deliver what is needed. Only then we will be taken seriously by externals in future.

Here's a simple equation I will tell you:

Quality products + Accountability = better profit margins to be reinvested for research = high employee morale + better Financial returns + better R&D + Clearer accountability.

Looks good, but doesn't reflect the reality of PSUs and their product. Again take the Dhruv as an example! It was developed specially for the requirements of Indian forces and the Indian terrain. If if would be developed with maximum sales in mind, it wouldn't need such good hot and high performance. A less powerfull, but more cost-effective engine would be enough, which reduces operational and unit costs. So no matter how good the Dhruv is today for Indian forces and the Indian terrain, it doesn't mean that it's good or cheap enough for export customers, especially against more experienced and reputable contenders. That then will obviously hit the profit margin and so on, but the key is, that it doesn't matter for India if Dhruv is an export success or not, as long as it provides our forces with what they need! That is only possible with PSUs that are bound to develop things according to operational needs in first place, with profits only as secondary aims. For the other side we will have the privat companies that are now coming in, which will have defence sales in mind as main prioirity, but it's good to have both of them, since that will force the PSUs to deliver more and be more accountable.

Another reason is that where is it promoted in India?

Is HAL doing anything to promote Dhruv?

Yes of course! HAL is present with the Dhruv and the acrobatic team in several air shows. They are constantly in Germany and even highly regarded for the flight display. We also know that HAL and IAF made promotion tours to East Asian countries to show and practically advertise it and don't forget that we have some of the biggest defence / air shows in Asia right in India as well, where HAL and Dhruv are present since years. So representation or PR is not the problem!

The scientists and project leads do their jobs

No offence to you, but I am so fed up with hearing this! IF that would be true, we would have an indigenous radar by now, Kaveri engine and a lot of indigenous weapons too, but the reality is different! Even our scientist in the design teams of ADA and HAL are doing pretty bad work which causes issues with every single aircraft and still everybody is hailing the scientists whenever a new prototype will be rolled out.
When they have delivered something, that fits the requirements and is ready to be in serial production THEN and ONLY THEN we can say our scientist did their job! And don't even let me start about the project management.

Newsflash for you mate: Financial success is what defines the foundation of a company's ability to take R&D to new levels.

And who denied that? But there is a difference if a company is aimed only at financial success, therefor simply fires 1000s workers to reduce the fixed costs and look better at the next rating and a company that is aimed steady growth and success, that also takes backdrops in between to account. Boeing forced the USAF to keep buying C17s although they didn't needed more for their operational needs, but by threatening to fire huge ammounts of workers. Airbus just announced to fire thousands of workers, because of less orders and they want to re-work their company profil. Do you think DRDO or HAL would or could do the same so easily?

An LCA that till now has seen no light of induction. Yeah.

And still remains the most important project for the indigenous defence aero industry! Not all the licence productions that TATA does for Sikorsky, AW, or even Boeing, they only provide TATA with more profit but doesn't add anything to the improvement of indigenous aircraft developments. LCA will set the ground for it and that it is where it is, is largly based on the mistakes of our project managers and scientists.