BJP to formally invite Yeddy to rejoin party

[Urbanized Greyhound]

@adwityagrata Bro dont pay much heed to that next door guy , he's already irked several members here. Share your views as much as you want.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Thankfully unlike your friend you don't deal in catchphrases or one-liners so I am gonna refrain from their usage as well . Suits me perfectly.

Coming to your points one by one , I am fully aware of the launch of NAL laboratories , ISRO centres etc etc which were exclusively Governmental i.e PSU's in nature. The ecosystem which you are taking about here was in magnitude miniscule --relative to one ongoing in the current economic scenario in Bangalore.

Not much more analysis available here, compared to your last post.

The ecosystem that you claim was in magnitude miniscule was in fact one of the most inviting (except for Hyderabad and Pune, which were similar in composition but lagged behind in size).

Your complete and in some ways endearing lack of any time perspective is evident from your thinking it miniscule. Yes, miniscule relative to one ongoing in the current economic scenario in Bangalore. We must thank ourselves you got that comparison right, at least. We cannot thank ourselves or anybody else when we think about the awful mistake of not looking down the wrong end of the periscope.

How did the current economic scenario get where it is? Overnight? It took decades; the early years saw miniscule movement, where people were hired and sent abroad in dozens and scores. Between 1996 and 1998, I trained and sent abroad as the Indian arm of one of the big houses in the US 150 engineers, many recruited from TCS. They were re-trained in mainframe architecture, in operating systems relating to those, in mainframe databases, in mainframe languages, and they constituted a significant proportion of that company's bench strength, if not the majority. Until around 2005 or so, a majority of projects undertaken were time-and-materials, not fixed-time/fixed-cost. Back in the 80s and 90s, a bench strength of 50 was enormous; recruiting that many a year was a significant achievement. Go and look at the old write-ups of every single major; their total head-count will tell you what size Indian industry was until we built it up. We, not you. You are coasting today on the achievement of dozens of years, and of hundreds of technical management staff, and all this in a cumulative manner over the years, NONE of it in a miraculous burst of activity by the BJP.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Someone remind me what happened to the scientific and technical infrastructure that the public sector brought in; tell me if the growth of private education in engineering and the creation of a critical mass of engineers to replace the ones we sucked out of the public sector was entirely a dream.

This sounds like an oxymoron. No large scale growth of PRIVATE industries to absorb the engineering talent ( which if YOU had read my previous post carefully ) which itself was miniscule in nature compared to the raw talent which Bangalore attracts today in droves from all over the country , and you expect engineering talent not to jump ship to the states which offer them employment , or even abroad ?

Whatever Government units , present here had limited capability to absorb and let me guarantee you , students from Bangalore were very Seldom chosen. They would naturally go for the best --i.e IIT grads , NIT passouts and so on.

Small scale industries do not offer incentives(salaries , working conditions ) attractive enough for a majority of high end Electronics or Computer Science grads ,if they find better offers , they directly move to states where there is a large concentration of "Heavy Industries" , one example would be Tata plants like those in Jamshedpur , Bokaro --Tata Steel etc.

No, no oxymoron. Simply a lack of comprehension, either deliberate, in the face of increasing inability to cope with the facts as they were, or natural, in which case I sincerely hope that you have a secure job.

Look at your statements one by one, in logical sequence.

First, about concentrations of heavy industries offering the most attractive opportunities. Right and wrong.

Concentrations like Jamshedpur and Calcutta, Bombay and Delhi, even Madras, did NOT offer attractive opportunities for electronics or computer science graduates in those days, and they have only recently improved their numbers. If you look at the NASSCOM figures, or ANY other set of figures, until recently, until there was a conscious effort to reduce the risk of concentrating talent in one or two spots, the bulk of software offshoring took place in the south. If you continue with studying those figures, Bangalore weighs more than twice Hyderabad, and that weighs more than twice Madras.

Why was Bangalore successful, where the others weren't? Anyone who is familiar with that phase would give you the answer in one crisp word,"Mainframes". There was nothing else in 1985; nothing until IBM launched the PC sometime in 1986 or 1987. Only a handful of PDP machines, concentrated in the academic sector, and in Bombay and Pune. The Bangalore concentration, however, was three Sperry systems - ISRO, NAL and HAL - and four Burroughs systems, two directly accessible, two indirectly - HMT, BEML and two more in HAL Hyderabad and HAL Koraput. Oh, I forgot Canara Bank, which bought one of the most advanced Burroughs systems and then proceeded to make a hash of its installation and deployment. But that's another story.

The nearest IBM set up outside an academic outpost was the 1401 in Asbestos Industries, Hyderabad. Narayanswamy and gang set up their MV systems for MICO a little later, and mined that bit for all that they could get while writing abominable software for cooperative banks.

What about the ecosystem? That's not just a word. It points to the fact that the mad scientist who headed up the ISRO computer set-up, including their subsidiary systems, mini-computers among them, was the first person to whom the Sperry team made their pitches for new equipment. Any criticism by him meant enormous revisions; any endorsement was as good as a sale. He was the Satagopan of those days, consulted by the whole community. On the commercial side, on how to procure these massive systems, the authority was the wily manipulator who headed HMT. Everyone from HAL and BEML came to him for advice and guidance.

And the IIT grads? and the NIT passouts? I presume the latter euphonious phrase means the RECs that were, Suratkal, Trichy, Warangal and their like. So what do you think happened while there was a frenzy to find computer talent, and even data entry operators hopefully floated their resumes? Did they sleep through it like technical Rip van Winkles? Who do you think got poached and shipped out in the first wave?

That brings us to your second point (logically speaking, although your own sequencing is different), that the public sector had limited capacity to absorb, and absorbed only the best, the IIT graduates and the NIT graduates, not the products of the private engineering colleges.

Again, btw, you are rather short on comprehension. You assume that this leakage, this haemorrhaging of talent from the public sector was replaced by local graduates. Try again; read what I wrote, not what you think I wrote.

the creation of a critical mass of engineers to replace the ones we sucked out of the public sector

Whom were they replacing? They were not replenishing the public sector vacancies. Strangely enough, I happen to know that the public sector has a long and elaborate procedure to recruit its employees, and that they tended to favour the IITs and NITs, though this fell by the wayside soon enough. No, they replaced the public sector employees in the next wave, once we had stripped that vein of its contents. The next wave was the one that we had to train in mainframe technology, because the first wave had taken out the lot that we had.

All this in the 80s and the 90s, and later, including some of the first decade of the millennium, just to press home the point that the BJP had little or nothing to do with the Bangalore boom.

Which brings us to the third point, that the Bangalore boom brings in droves from all over the country, and not just the local private engineering colleges. So what is your point, actually? That it was like this all the way back? There were only handfuls of northerners in those days, in Bangalore. There were around twelve Durga Puja pandals then; more than eighteen and counting, now. Actually, the industry was small in those days, long before mammoth head-counts of over 10,000 were to be seen. And that is why your argument about the public sector availability being miniscule falls flat: so was the software and IT sector miniscule.

All you have to do is to plot the joint head-count of the majors located in the city, from 1980 to 2010, and superimpose your political time-lines on them, and you will get your answers about who was around at what time. As it happens, if you conclude from this exercise that the Congress or Deve Gowda and his kleptocratic clan had anything more to do with this than the BJP, you would be wrong. Not having been there, you would know nothing about the fact that it was precisely the lack of government interference, because of government ignorance of the potential of this new sector, that allowed us to grow.

We were thankful that they left us alone.

 

[Joe Shearer]

Again, shallow understanding leading to shallow conclusions. Perhaps the complex sentence is a forgotten language in the age of tweeting.

There was no suggestion that the engineering talent I was talking about (where did you get medical talent? thin air?) was a driver of growth in any respect other than to attract the pioneers of outsourcing to Bangalore in the first place, and to serve as a reservoir that was rapidly depleted by us during the 80s and the 90s, right through the millennium in fact. These are important enough, but they led to the growth of the private education industry, which limped along until the appetite of the body-shopping industry gave it muscle.

There is this incredibly uninformed phrase in your post which says:

Here is where the catch is . When "pioneers of sourcing " as you so termed it began to realize the Government of this state is business friendly , with minimum hassles in acquiring land , setting up favorable conditions for Industrial growth etc --which is basically due to the Political climate here , they began to expand creating offices , infrastructure for getting the design aspects of be it Computer applications or Electronic Applications done right here , rather than using this base as just a place for cheap labour.

Now skilled , irreplaceble labor came into the picture which was yet cheap. Rather than mere "presentation end" jobs , we began to see Business end ( core segment ) jobs here .

And thereafter the subsequent growth.

Perhaps you should ask Narayanmurthy.

Right through, during every political dispensation, things were good when government didn't interfere, except to build drainage, water lines, electrical connections and, yes, not to forget, roads. WIPRO's big foundation years were out of a shared office on MG Road; Infosys floated around until they got to Hosur and started building there, and you need to look at your timelines carefully to see who got them that land (hint: it wasn't the BJP). HCL never made up its mind what it was doing in Bangalore. TCS was big but was equally big elsewhere.

Nothing waited for government.

The most laughable statement was

When "pioneers of sourcing " as you so termed it began to realize the Government of this state is business friendly , with minimum hassles in acquiring land , setting up favorable conditions for Industrial growth etc --which is basically due to the Political climate here , they began to expand creating offices , infrastructure for getting the design aspects of be it Computer applications or Electronic Applications done right here , rather than using this base as just a place for cheap labour.

The pioneers of sourcing did not need government, and still do not need government. If it were because of government measures that this industry had owed its start, it would never have taken off. The pioneers of sourcing were already there, they started their expansion there as well, and they developed their skills in tune with the changing perception of their capabilities abroad, not because of government funding.

I really object to your creating history out of thin air, rather than looking at conditions that existed. And all to shill for a political party.

 

[Joe Shearer]

By Services infrastructure , I am referring to the three domains of the Indian economy --Agriculture , Industry,Services .

I am using the term as a generalization for the entire IT industry as opposed to heavy Industry. Every industry here even today trains freshers extensively , however today not just freshers are being pulled in but loads of people with myriad experiences having works in several other cities , and in many different roles --managers , analysts , tech support , network security , core electronics etc .

You haven't lost your sense of veiled sarcasm I see --going by "Incidentally, you sling around phrases and words at a furious rate, a faster rate than is healthy."

You might as well have said precisely that in the first place, which was the point of my disingenuous query.

I believe it is quite unanimously agreed that the BJP improved this transport situation.

And I believe that this unanimity is wholly among the BJP supporters on this thread. It does not extend to those who saw the planning of the infrastructure in earlier days.

I wish you would not assume that everything happened during the BJP. This is so shallow an assumption that it endangers your credibility on all fronts.

You might like to look up the story of Procrustes.

 

[CorporateAffairs]

Why should I have to be loyal with any political party to choose what best for my country.. BJP didnt forget what Yeddy had done, that explains why they are openly inviting him back to the party.. Dude, get serious.. To get rid of disease called congress you dont have to corrupt leaders like Yeddy and his cronies.. Go and vote for some independent candidate, or a third front or AAP Or you can excercise none of the above option too . May be we will have a hung parliament. Just put both of those idiots of the opposition for next five years.. Let them both realist that Indians are not some pushovers and sab chalta he attitude wont work anymore.. You dont have to choose another corrupt leader for one because in the end we are the one who is going to suffer..

NOTA option is a cruel JOKE on Indians. It has no value. Atleast for another 20 yrs.

Coming to AAP. I wish AAP formed govt. in delhi, and people would know, how difficult it is to walk the talk in their manifesto. People like arvind cannot rule they are best suited for agitations.

In order to root out corruption, first you need to get there. This is all my point.

This Bloody B*tch Thinks she is God...

How Dare this Rascal Kongressi showing her as Goddess replacing Tirupati Balaji inside the Temple...

Wish congress is rooted out from entire india.

Let us give 280 seats to BJP and NaMo. Then he will ensure congress is history!

 

[Urbanized Greyhound]

@Joe Shearer -- That was a fantastic analysis and I concur with many points . However due to an acute lack of time presently I am unable to elaborate on the Govt contribution. I still think this picture has some holes and with your acceptance and patience ( which incidentally I admire , Taking so much time and effort to discus all this) , I may be able to improve it a weeny bit further.

Also a couple of points we overlooked in our discussion here are
1) a comparative analysis of what successive Govt's did , didn't do and could have done --directly or indirectly . Something I dont agree about this analysis is a perception that all these developments grew without much govt help, I believe I have a couple of points to the contrary
2) and the state of health care in Bangalore ( You did remark that Medical talent is pretty much non -existent , quite in a sarcastic way( I remember the "catch phrase " thin air )

So if you be willing to wait for a while until I have time to put my thoughts across the screen via the keyboard , I would like to further continue our discussion seeing as it gives me both an opportunity to learn developmental history and contrast it with current developments .

Thanking you in anticipation .

Best regards ,

 

[Joe Shearer]

@Urbanized Greyhound

My only point, one that you may begin to realise by now, is that those of us who lived through those decades have a subtly different take on things, a feel for the continuity, for the autonomy of the industry and the irrelevance of government, and that these are not identical with your position, or the analysis that led to it.

I am not a well person, so I tend to get harshly intolerant of disagreement. Time is not my friend. That does not mean that I do not recognise that there are other points of view, merely that I tend to be overbearing and to dismiss others in an offhand manner.

My apologies.

Joe

 

[Iggy]

NOTA option is a cruel JOKE on Indians. It has no value. Atleast for another 20 yrs.

Coming to AAP. I wish AAP formed govt. in delhi, and people would know, how difficult it is to walk the talk in their manifesto. People like arvind cannot rule they are best suited for agitations.

In order to root out corruption, first you need to get there. This is all my point.

NOTA was a cruel but essential joke enforced by these so called political parties on us.. Just think about it, people selecting NOTA instead of the candidates, it will make political parties to rethink their strategy.. They will know until and unless, they do a better job, the people will not vote for them.. In today's political scenario its a must.. And for AAP, I am not asking to vote for them because I love them, if these political parties will be keep out of power for say 10 years, they will know how to perform well to get into power.. These parties think whatever they do, they will vote for us.. That is why congress trying to loot without shame and BJP trying to team up with corrupt leaders.. They should get it in their thick skull that, there is no place for looters in politics..