Bin Laden case puts pakistan's 'Military Inc' under scrutiny

[Silk]

How come Mladic is not found in a far smaller area and that one killed then thousands of muslims? A simple question but it explains that finding something is not as easy as now in the aftermath is written by people that know nothing.

 

[Guest01]

Provide worthy Politicians and army would stay in barracks.. If you keep on voting for thieves, thugs and like, and Country keeps on going to the verge of destruction, like it is now, army is going to interfere.. Its their obligation.. thats what they are there for..

Thanks to THIS army that we have sustained our sovereignty for 64 years.. and all my cordial thanks are for them.. They made a first mistake or "lapse" and every tom, dick, harry is right up on his tail calling names..

If you look at the history of Pakistan (without your westernized goggles).. you'll notice that Pakistan has always done better under Martial Laws, it has developed.. and it has always gone down in Democratic times..

Provide good political people, and you'll see that army won't come out until they are required.. (in case of war with outsiders)..

Okay, let us look at things without western "goggles" and see how the army has fared:

1. General Ayub lost you 1965. The foolishness of operation gibraltar and later grand slam are only well known. There was nothing that Pakistan gained from the war.
2. You curse USA today but General Yahya was ready to make Pakistan a satellite state of US. That is an acknowledge and well documented and published fact.
3. Again General Yahya presided over the 1971 breakup of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The heartbreak exists to this day to have lost more than 50% of your population and over 40% of territory due to the crimes and atrocities of the Pakistani army.
4. General Zia (after hanging ZAB, the saviour of Ahmadiyyas) invited US to come and create Mujahideen and you anyway know some sort of historical impact of that decision to this date in your friendly neighbourhood.
5. The nice and progressive path of fundamentalism chosen by General Zia also resonates very well in your society to this day. Daily developments are occuring on that front so what to talk about in this case.
6. General Musshharraf got you Kargill gift. No matter what is being taught in the schools over there, but the truth is pretty much in the face otherwise.
7. The friendly ISI and army got you the gift of creation of Taliban. That was the wisest decision to create strategic depth in Afganistan and to keep afghanistan as a vassal state. They also made great friends out of Afghans by doing so. That was a diplomatic victory.
8. And of course the bend over of Musshharraff is pretty famous to Armitage. So that was also another achievement of the army for Pakistan due to which there are some friendly toys called drones and also other various kinds of strange occurences that regularly show up in the proud Islamic republic of Pakistan.

And all this while, Pakistan army did not at all create corporations, or no retired generals were running state companies like pakistan steel mills which is a great and profitable organization today contributing greatly to the pakistan GDP.

Indeed the army has been very good for Pakistan. It has been peace loving, it got the country great honors, it was awake when the seals came in and acted very bravely, it has always been at the forefront of protecting the integrity of the country and never allowed the loss of integrity of the pakistani nation and finally, the generals put the interest of the nation always ahead of their interest, so if the nation is poor, the pakistani generals are never rich.

Good luck.

 

[GUNS-N- ROSES]

As usual, it comes up to name calling.. so now i am "army apologist" or better yet "khaki apologist"? Why? because i do not node my head in approval of spoon fed agenda of western and Indian media? or because i talk sense??

Here is something for you to ponder.. "Udhar tum, Idhar hum".. go search who said that and why? Do you even know what was the reason behind "sakoot-e-dhaka"?? My guess is you are very young, so go ask someone who was active at that time about the "reality" of that incident.. you'll be amazed by what you hear..

As far as Kargil is concerned, army bore losses "on their way back, in retreat" and who gave the retreat order?? Yet again, i have read again and again that "Pakistan lost in Kargil" by All Indians and some Pakistanis.. would you mind telling me who was the one who went to UN and US for help?? Logically, a person who is losing something tries to find support and help when they cannot do anything by themselves.. IF Pakistani Army hadn't come back from Kargil, Kashmir would had been free by now.. Another question for you.. who gave the list of Khalistan tehreek to India?? was it army??

So if you can't come up with proper response, personal attacks will weigh zilch..

enough said!

wow i like u r knowledge of military and defence matters.

 

[third eye]

Please do see the geographical location of occupied areas and what comes under attack from there.. humor me as much as you want.. it won't change facts..

BTW, don't use your "third eye".. use the natural ones please

Considering your age I shall ignore the highlighted part above. Names selected by us are our personal choices . I do not feel anyone has the right to comment on anthers.

As regards the rest , it takes more than the geographical location of a place to decide the outcome of a military action. My remarks in post #8 above were based on the fact that I was there then.

Lets leave it here.

 

[Guest01]

As usual, it comes up to name calling.. so now i am "army apologist" or better yet "khaki apologist"? Why? because i do not node my head in approval of spoon fed agenda of western and Indian media? or because i talk sense??

Here is something for you to ponder.. "Udhar tum, Idhar hum".. go search who said that and why? Do you even know what was the reason behind "sakoot-e-dhaka"?? My guess is you are very young, so go ask someone who was active at that time about the "reality" of that incident.. you'll be amazed by what you hear..

As far as Kargil is concerned, army bore losses "on their way back, in retreat" and who gave the retreat order?? Yet again, i have read again and again that "Pakistan lost in Kargil" by All Indians and some Pakistanis.. would you mind telling me who was the one who went to UN and US for help?? Logically, a person who is losing something tries to find support and help when they cannot do anything by themselves.. IF Pakistani Army hadn't come back from Kargil, Kashmir would had been free by now..

Another question for you.. who gave the list of Khalistan tehreek to India?? was it army??

So if you can't come up with proper response, personal attacks will weigh zilch..

enough said!

You are right about the above. In 6 quick months, you will also be right about the fact that it was Zardari who ordered and cut the telephone lines of Kiyanai and Pasha when the seals were raiding. Zardari also ordered WAPDA to cut off the power to the airfields and also the radars. The generators could not run because POL was ordered by Zardari to not supply oil to army. So the radars just could not work. It was a saazish by Zardari with a bairooni haath. Otherwise the great army of pakistan and also the super duper isi would not have been utterly humiliated by 26 americal seals in 4 stupid heli-copters.

But even after such damage done by Zardari to the pakistani nation, the army still salvaged the situation by giving the damaged helicopter to China who is now an even closer bhai mulk of pakistan. All of this is due to the greatness of only pakistani army and the ISI.

In 6 months, this will be the truth that will exist only in Pakistan.

 

[pakdefender]

Okay, let us look at things without western "goggles" and see how the army has fared:

1. General Ayub lost you 1965. The foolishness of operation gibraltar and later grand slam are only well known. There was nothing that Pakistan gained from the war.
2. You curse USA today but General Yahya was ready to make Pakistan a satellite state of US. That is an acknowledge and well documented and published fact.
3. Again General Yahya presided over the 1971 breakup of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The heartbreak exists to this day to have lost more than 50% of your population and over 40% of territory due to the crimes and atrocities of the Pakistani army.
4. General Zia (after hanging ZAB, the saviour of Ahmadiyyas) invited US to come and create Mujahideen and you anyway know some sort of historical impact of that decision to this date in your friendly neighbourhood.
5. The nice and progressive path of fundamentalism chosen by General Zia also resonates very well in your society to this day. Daily developments are occuring on that front so what to talk about in this case.
6. General Musshharraf got you Kargill gift. No matter what is being taught in the schools over there, but the truth is pretty much in the face otherwise.
7. The friendly ISI and army got you the gift of creation of Taliban. That was the wisest decision to create strategic depth in Afganistan and to keep afghanistan as a vassal state. They also made great friends out of Afghans by doing so. That was a diplomatic victory.
8. And of course the bend over of Musshharraff is pretty famous to Armitage. So that was also another achievement of the army for Pakistan due to which there are some friendly toys called drones and also other various kinds of strange occurences that regularly show up in the proud Islamic republic of Pakistan.

And all this while, Pakistan army did not at all create corporations, or no retired generals were running state companies like pakistan steel mills which is a great and profitable organization today contributing greatly to the pakistan GDP.

Indeed the army has been very good for Pakistan. It has been peace loving, it got the country great honors, it was awake when the seals came in and acted very bravely, it has always been at the forefront of protecting the integrity of the country and never allowed the loss of integrity of the pakistani nation and finally, the generals put the interest of the nation always ahead of their interest, so if the nation is poor, the pakistani generals are never rich.

Good luck.

In 1948 , 1/3rd of Kashmir was liberated , Muzaffarabad became the capital o f Azad Kashmir
In 1965 , while territory didn’t change hands but india suffered more losses
India tried to occupy Siachin but was stopped in its track, that war still goes on
In 1971, we captured indian territory in the west that to this day is with us , india on the other hand did not gain any territory
In Kargil we captured posts like 5353 , that to this day is with us.
Pakistan Army was won more squares miles from india that india has from Pakistan , that’s an interesting statistic.

 

[AAtish]

Views from India
IDSA COMMENT
The Post Osama Possibilities
Ramesh Phadke

May 6, 2011

US president Barak Obama announced late last Sunday that Osama Bin laden was killed in an operation by a special forces team, now identified as navy SEALS, in Abbottabad a mere 50 km north of Islamabad. While Obama specifically said that no other forces were involved, Pakistan said there was cooperation with US forces. Either of them has to be wrong. Pakistan is either lying or is simply incompetent to defend its air space.

This raises a number of questions. Why did the US and Pakistani establishments issue the two contrary statements? How did the US forces get to the site without the knowledge and permission of the Pakistan military? How did they hide the progress of their five-year long investigation? How did they keep a watch on the safe house in Abbottabad without the ISI’s knowledge? There is obviously much more than meets the eye.

How did the US helicopters come all the way from Jalalabad to Abbottabad, a distance of about 200 km over hilly terrain without being detected by the Pakistani air defence radars? Most amazingly, these helicopters also returned safely back to their base. Surely, after all the noise and excitement of the shooting in close vicinity of inhabited areas and the fact that the Pakistani security forces had cordoned off the OBL hide-out, means that Pakistan would/could have tried to intercept the helicopters at least on their way back. There are some reports that these were the ‘ultra-secret’ versions of AH-60 Black Hawk which has advanced stealth features including noise suppression, and that is the reason why these were not detected by Pakistani radars. It is possible that the Pakistani radars were off the air or were jammed by the Americans. The latter, however, is unlikely as the very act of jamming would have warned the Pakistanis of a serious threat. It is also possible that the Pakistan’s radars that are deployed along its western borders are not quite state-of-the-art. Pakistan’s claims of scrambling two F-16 fighters also do not appear credible. Since Pakistan has said that it mistook the helicopter activity as emanating from India, the fighters might have been sent in the wrong direction. In any case, intercepting a stealthy chopper in the hills on a dark night was not exactly easy. Finally, the Pakistan Army might have known about it but did not want to acknowledge its association with the US military for fear of reprisals by the Taliban. Some also wonder why Gen. Patraeus secretly visited Chaklala in the week prior to this major US operation.

It is now evident that OBL lived in Abbottabad for nearly six years with minimal security outside his house, indicating that the Pakistan Army and the ISI were supremely confident that together they had given the fugitive full and impregnable defence by way of plain clothes security personnel so as to not arouse any suspicion. ISI not knowing OBL’s whereabouts is stretching the imagination too far.

The US will of course not punish the ISI too severely as it still needs the ISI and Pakistan Army support, but will increasingly demand tougher and credible action against the Taliban, the Haqqani network and the Queta Shura. One should not be surprised if the US intensifies its drone attacks against these as yet untouched targets. The US would much rather have a happy Karzai at the helm in Afghanistan than waste precious time, lives, resources and effort to appease the Pakistan Army and the ISI.

The elimination of OBL might not accelerate US withdrawal from Afghanistan as he was the main target of US attack against that country in October 2001, but in all probability this marks the beginning of the end of active US military presence in Afghanistan. To be sure, the US would be wary of leaving too many things in the care of Pakistan. It may keep a sizeable military presence to oversee the operations. The chances of the ‘good’ Taliban becoming part of the ruling coalition in Afghanistan are not so bright now. A diplomatic surge is unlikely to succeed unless there are some tangible victories on ground against these known villains. India must now take a more active stand in supporting an India-friendly government in Kabul and give it the support that it needs.

Pakistan might now up the ante and provoke India into some sort of strong verbal response or even a military reaction so as to turn the attention of the US and the international community to Kashmir and the old bogey of an imagined Indian threat.

As the proverbial cat with nine lives, Pakistan will bounce back even if it were required to go down on bended knees to obtain US forgiveness. All this drama about the violation of its sovereignty is just that. Pakistan has lived with increasingly curtailed freedom of action for decades but has also retained its nuisance value. It may once again try to disrupt the US logistical convoy route through Baluchistan by inciting Taliban insurgents, but this time the US might not be as indulgent as before. Pakistan is and has always been a client state and does not really mind that so long as it can somehow retain a rough military parity with its archenemy, India. Pakistan has still not met India’s demand to bring the perpetrators of 26/11 to book and is unlikely to do that in the near future. It is time India told the world that its patience must not be taken for granted.

Eliminating Osama Bin Laden in Pakistan’s backyard was no mean achievement. It shows the persistent surveillance and perseverance of the US intelligence agencies and their dogged determination. This gives hope that the US will show equal alacrity and resolve if and when the need arises to take out Pakistani nuclear weapons. The US can now feel more confident to do that in the event of an emergency such as a serious break down of law and order or a general collapse of the administration in Pakistan. Locating them should not be a major problem as satellite surveillance today is quite advanced and provides high resolution imagery. For example, in the recent tragic accident in India’s Arunachal Pradesh, ISRO is said to have pin-pointed some metal parts as possible accident sites at eight different locations in thickly forested mountainous areas. The US capability in this field is far more credible and hence such a thing is not beyond the realm of possibility.

India too can now feel more confident to consider a wider array of diplomatic and other choices in the event of Pakistani mischief in the future. It is too early to give a definitive verdict on the Pakistan’s military preparedness, but one can safely state that there is much bluff and bluster behind Pakistan’s boastful claims about its military capabilities.

Barring a few die-hard radicals and separatists no one in India has shed tears for OBL, al Qaeda or Pakistan. The Indian leadership need not worry too much about hurting the feelings of their friends in the Middle East. India should in fact intensify its naval presence in the Western Indian Ocean waters off the Horn of Africa and take more proactive steps to curb piracy and give a sense of security to the smaller countries of the region even if it has to expend more effort and resources. Finally, terrorism is not about to disappear from the scene. Things might get worse before they become better. The remnants of al Qaeda will undoubtedly try to stage spectacular strikes against soft targets. India has no option but to remain alert.

Evident on the basis of which Evidence?? how irresponsible of Indian "yellow" journalists.. Is there any proof supporting it?? or are you banging your head on the basis of "word of mouth"??

 

[AAtish]

Okay, let us look at things without western "goggles" and see how the army has fared:

1. General Ayub lost you 1965. The foolishness of operation gibraltar and later grand slam are only well known. There was nothing that Pakistan gained from the war.
2. You curse USA today but General Yahya was ready to make Pakistan a satellite state of US. That is an acknowledge and well documented and published fact.
3. Again General Yahya presided over the 1971 breakup of the Islamic Republic of Pakistan. The heartbreak exists to this day to have lost more than 50% of your population and over 40% of territory due to the crimes and atrocities of the Pakistani army.
4. General Zia (after hanging ZAB, the saviour of Ahmadiyyas) invited US to come and create Mujahideen and you anyway know some sort of historical impact of that decision to this date in your friendly neighbourhood.
5. The nice and progressive path of fundamentalism chosen by General Zia also resonates very well in your society to this day. Daily developments are occuring on that front so what to talk about in this case.
6. General Musshharraf got you Kargill gift. No matter what is being taught in the schools over there, but the truth is pretty much in the face otherwise.
7. The friendly ISI and army got you the gift of creation of Taliban. That was the wisest decision to create strategic depth in Afganistan and to keep afghanistan as a vassal state. They also made great friends out of Afghans by doing so. That was a diplomatic victory.
8. And of course the bend over of Musshharraff is pretty famous to Armitage. So that was also another achievement of the army for Pakistan due to which there are some friendly toys called drones and also other various kinds of strange occurences that regularly show up in the proud Islamic republic of Pakistan.

And all this while, Pakistan army did not at all create corporations, or no retired generals were running state companies like pakistan steel mills which is a great and profitable organization today contributing greatly to the pakistan GDP.

Indeed the army has been very good for Pakistan. It has been peace loving, it got the country great honors, it was awake when the seals came in and acted very bravely, it has always been at the forefront of protecting the integrity of the country and never allowed the loss of integrity of the pakistani nation and finally, the generals put the interest of the nation always ahead of their interest, so if the nation is poor, the pakistani generals are never rich.

Good luck.

I can answer you point by point but.. Not to be rude... Would you mind staying out of this discussion.. you are not a Pakistani so your opinions worth NOTHING... The HISTORY on YOUR side is TOTALLY different from OUR SIDE.. thanks

 

[AAtish]

wow i like u r knowledge of military and defence matters.

Thanks, i really liked the attitude of your government at the time, asking children of all schools in India to "write" letters for soldiers in Kashmir so that their morals are boosted (dig your television clips from that time)..

 

[AAtish]

Considering your age I shall ignore the highlighted part above. Names selected by us are our personal choices . I do not feel anyone has the right to comment on anthers.

As regards the rest , it takes more than the geographical location of a place to decide the outcome of a military action. My remarks in post #8 above were based on the fact that I was there then.

Lets leave it here.

Hence, you carry on with sarcasm from your previous post..

Excuse me? Where were you again? in Kargil?

and let me response to non-bold part also.. you are right.. there were only two options left for India at that time.. either go to full scale war or run towards "abba jaan".. India took the second option.. simple!

I don't know about you or how old you are, but i was System's Analyst for PM Secretariate at that time..

 

[AAtish]

You are right about the above. In 6 quick months, you will also be right about the fact that it was Zardari who ordered and cut the telephone lines of Kiyanai and Pasha when the seals were raiding. Zardari also ordered WAPDA to cut off the power to the airfields and also the radars. The generators could not run because POL was ordered by Zardari to not supply oil to army. So the radars just could not work. It was a saazish by Zardari with a bairooni haath. Otherwise the great army of pakistan and also the super duper isi would not have been utterly humiliated by 26 americal seals in 4 stupid heli-copters.

But even after such damage done by Zardari to the pakistani nation, the army still salvaged the situation by giving the damaged helicopter to China who is now an even closer bhai mulk of pakistan. All of this is due to the greatness of only pakistani army and the ISI.

In 6 months, this will be the truth that will exist only in Pakistan.

relevance??

 

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relevance??

Relevance.... That what we (meaning the world) know today, you (meaning most pakistanis) will know in another 6 months if not later

 

[JonAsad]

Relevance.... That what we (meaning the world) know today, you (meaning most pakistanis) will know in another 6 months if not later

oo plz-- thats what you are dreaming since 47-

 

[AAtish]

Relevance.... That what we (meaning the world) know today, you (meaning most pakistanis) will know in another 6 months if not later

what I am saying is documented fact.. what you are saying is sarcasm.. it has nothing to do with Pakistanis or the world.. and since when India is considered to be world?

 

[|| |\| ||)) || /\\ |\|]

oo plz-- thats what you are dreaming since 47-

I was referring to the OBL raid. What the hell were you talking about?