Bikini or headscarf -- which offers more freedom?

[ptldM3]

You are right that women are human too and peer approval is liked by us all, opposite gender approval a little more. However the better ones from us all are always those that make healthy practical choices not emanating from peer pressure.

People start smoking due to peer pressure and to earn others approval at a young age.

Now I'm not saying that a woman must not try to look good, or 'show off her assets' if she wants to. I'm saying that if she doesn't want to, stop trying to strip her off her clothing. Respect her choice either.

Exactly, women enjoy attention from the oposite sex which is totally normal, that's just human nature and it can not be changed.

Once women get older they tend to get more conservative and thus they dress accordingly, if a women wants to wear a burqah that is her decision and no one has the right to say otherwise. However, i do beleive that women in countries such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia feel presure to conform to the norms, during the Soviet days many women in Afghanistan did not wear a burqah.

 

[Awesome]

Cmon Asim! Be honest .... did the photos not crack you up? (you can PM me if you wish)

Cheers, Mullah Doc

It's not my definition of normal I agree, but they've got to live their lives with the conviction they believe in.

I used to work as a photographer at events and I had to snap one too many Burkha girls winning some award or the other and I always wondered whats the point.

However imagine if I took away her chance to be recognized in the paper for the achievement, just because of a choice she made that defines the level of nudity for a woman more strictly than what I'm used to - I'd be the absurd one.

I was however, talking about the chick in water on the beach with her family. That was actually good to see that shes still having fun and not giving in to peer pressure, she probably didn't appreciate being photographed though.

 

[vsdoc]

Asim thats what i am saying. why these men who wants to see Women flesh are trying to strip every woman of her clothing who wants to wear it out of her own will???


I can agree with them Only if a woman is forced to wear all cover up dress against her will BUT why you want us to shed our cloths just because in your eyes a semi naked woman is more liberated .

Again Jana, while your plaintive cries for protection from the evil male eye arouse primitive feelings of the protective male in me, please lets get some perspective here.

This "will" that you speak of now as a grown adult is actually part of your subliminally programmed subconscious.

This programming starts from the womb as per recent research. It continues from there on into infancy, childhood, and adolescence.

Programming by the society you grow up and live in. By your peers. By your parents. By your aunties and uncles. By your teachers in school. By the books and magazines and literature you read. By what you watch on TV. By the conversations of the elders around you which you hear and absorb and assimilate unconsciously. By your religious leaders and their sermons in your places of worship.

If 24/7, 365 days of the year, you are bombarded by the concept that wearing a burqa/headscarf is the "right" thing to do, would you Jana as a perfectly nice sweet girl all grown up as a responsible member now of that same society do anything different? Consciously and voluntarily at that?

Cheers, Doc

 

[H2O3C4Nitrogen]

feeling so bad .. i mised the thread ..!!!

 

[Awesome]

Exactly, women enjoy attention from the oposite sex which is totally normal, that's just human nature and it can not be changed.

Once women get older they tend to get more conservative and thus they dress accordingly, if a women wants to wear a burqah that is her decision and no one has the right to say otherwise. However, i do beleive that women in countries such as Afghanistan and Saudi Arabia feel presure to conform to the norms, during the Soviet days many women in Afghanistan did not wear a burqah.

Thankfully women in Saudi and Afghanistan form a fraction of their total population. In Pakistan a dupatta is used by women for hijab purposes just as many women that do hijab, as many others don't. They all (mostly) dress modestly though.

Freewill should rule supreme.

 

[Spring Onion]

Again Jana, while your plaintive cries for protection from the evil male eye arouse primitive feeling of the protective male in me, please lets get some perspective here.

This "will" that you speak of now as a grown adult is actually part of your subliminally programmed subconscious.

This programming starts from the womb as per recent research. It continues from there on into infancy, childhood, and adolescence.

Programming by the society you grow up and live in. By your peers. By your parents. By your aunties and uncles. By your teachers in school. By the books and magazines and literature you read. By what you watch on TV. By the conversations of the elders around you which you hear and absorb and assimilate unconsciously. By your religious leaders and their sermons in your places of worship.

If 24/7, 365 days of the year, you are bombarded by the concept that wearing a burqa/headscarf is the "right" thing to do, would you Jana as a perfectly nice sweet girl all grown up as a responsible member now of that same society do anything different? Consciously and voluntarily at that?

Cheers, Doc

i thought you have some broader vision but seems its same Indian narrow vision



Please do tell me how the Indian women and men are programmed



I bring groups of American students to India every year, and always ask my students to be respectful of local custom and dress modestly. Several girls last year saw other foreign tourist women wearing tank tops and/or shorts and followed suit. The difference in how they were treated was dramatic.

Wearing tank tops and shorts invited countless more lewd comments and attempts to look down the girls' shirts. While it won't entirely eliminate stares and cat calls, wearing modest clothing, particularly wearing Indian clothing, almost always brings you more respect and courtesy, anywhere in the country. I have people commenting to me all the time how much they appreciate that I wear so much Indian clothing and that they automatically treated me differently.
Mary, Burlington, USA


Journeywoman - What Should I Wear?

 

[Awesome]

Again Jana, while your plaintive cries for protection from the evil male eye arouse primitive feelings of the protective male in me, please lets get some perspective here.

This "will" that you speak of now as a grown adult is actually part of your subliminally programmed subconscious.

This programming starts from the womb as per recent research. It continues from there on into infancy, childhood, and adolescence.

Programming by the society you grow up and live in. By your peers. By your parents. By your aunties and uncles. By your teachers in school. By the books and magazines and literature you read. By what you watch on TV. By the conversations of the elders around you which you hear and absorb and assimilate unconsciously. By your religious leaders and their sermons in your places of worship.

If 24/7, 365 days of the year, you are bombarded by the concept that wearing a burqa/headscarf is the "right" thing to do, would you Jana as a perfectly nice sweet girl all grown up as a responsible member now of that same society do anything different? Consciously and voluntarily at that?

Cheers, Doc

That is more or less such a media view of how women feel about the Hijab. It is more to do with the level of nudity one is comfortable with.

There are so many guys out there that won't take off their shirts! They think that's nudity.

In American culture, the bare bottoms are not considered nudity - in eastern (non-Muslim) cultures exposed bottoms are naked.

In some other western norms, topless is okay - full frontal is not.

Everybody defines nudity - Why can't Muslim women too? If they think the hair is sexual in nature and they want to interact in this sexual way with not everybody else - then they have a right to cover it. Just because you feel that they've been pre-programmed and pressured into wearing it, does not negate the fact that they've put in a lot of thought into it.

That's why the Hijab itself is not a clothing - its called the state of hijab. It depends on what is considered to be Hijab. The Quran simply says lower your gaze and use the Jilbab (the jilbab was traditionally used to cover things like cleavage and some had a head part for support, some didn't).

 

[Fireurimagination]

The receptionist in our office dots a burqa (not the one that covers the whole face) she comes to office from her place in a burqa removes the same when in office and dots it again while returning back to her place. I asked her why you do the same and she says because of my family especially brother

Now she is well educated, speaks fluent English and all but her family thinks burqa is part of their religion and should be practiced, in her case the burqa is not a big deal but yet if she had a choice she would rather not wear it

Ps: Don’t people think a salwar/kameez Is modest? There is a big wardrobe between the bikini and burqa

 

[Awesome]

There is no mention of the veil either, but then why do women willingly push for it? They take that same definition of nudity further - and say that the face is the most attractive feature, so they'll cover what they themselves perceive as nudity. The Quran just said to be modest, but its how each and every person defines that for themselves is what counts here.

 

[vsdoc]

i thought you have some broader vision but seems its same Indian narrow vision



Please do tell me how the Indian women and men are programmed



I bring groups of American students to India every year, and always ask my students to be respectful of local custom and dress modestly. Several girls last year saw other foreign tourist women wearing tank tops and/or shorts and followed suit. The difference in how they were treated was dramatic.

Wearing tank tops and shorts invited countless more lewd comments and attempts to look down the girls' shirts. While it won't entirely eliminate stares and cat calls, wearing modest clothing, particularly wearing Indian clothing, almost always brings you more respect and courtesy, anywhere in the country. I have people commenting to me all the time how much they appreciate that I wear so much Indian clothing and that they automatically treated me differently.
Mary, Burlington, USA


Journeywoman - What Should I Wear?

Jana, sometimes I wonder if you are talking in Pashtun and me in English!

Don't you see the difference between dressing modestly and covering yourself from top to bottom with just your eyes visible (if at all)?

Asim mentioned dupatta. Is that so different to what you must have seen most Indian women also doing? So where is the divergence?

If you do not, I give up and humbly agree to be a typically Indian narrow minded male.

Cheers, Doc

 

[Condor]

That is more or less such a media view of how women feel about the Hijab. It is more to do with the level of nudity one is comfortable with.

There are so many guys out there that won't take off their shirts! They think that's nudity.

In American culture, the bare bottoms are not considered nudity - in eastern (non-Muslim) cultures exposed bottoms are naked.

In some other western norms, topless is okay - full frontal is not.

Everybody defines nudity - Why can't Muslim women too? If they think the hair is sexual in nature and they want to interact in this sexual way with not everybody else - then they have a right to cover it. Just because you feel that they've been pre-programmed and pressured into wearing it, does not negate the fact that they've put in a lot of thought into it.

That's why the Hijab itself is not a clothing - its called the state of hijab. It depends on what is considered to be Hijab. The Quran simply says lower your gaze and use the Jilbab (the jilbab was traditionally used to cover things like cleavage and some had a head part for support, some didn't).

Well said Asim - heed my advice, stop wasting your time on this lecherous Doc

 

[Awesome]

Jana, sometimes I wonder if you are talking in Pashtun and me in English!

Don't you see the difference between dressing modestly and covering yourself from top to bottom with just your eyes visible (if at all)?

Asim mentioned dupatta. Is that so different to what you must have seen most Indian women also doing? So where is the divergence?

If you do not, I give up and humbly agree to be a typically Indian narrow minded male.

Cheers, Doc

Although the difference between modesty and head to toe covering is apparent to almost all, but I can respect the choice if some woman makes that.

As I said, if she perceives that her face is sexual and she doesn't want every random person seeing her face - a sexual part of her body, she can either make everyone close their eyes or cover up what she wants to hide.

As long as this is her choice and not her husband's or brother/father or even mother's, I can agree to it.

 

[Fireurimagination]

There is no mention of the veil either, but then why do women willingly push for it? They take that same definition of nudity further - and say that the face is the most attractive feature, so they'll cover what they themselves perceive as nudity. The Quran just said to be modest, but its how each and every person defines that for themselves is what counts here.

The point here is majority of women opt for burqa because of social pressure because they are told it's part of their religion (I hope it's not)

Burqa is discriminatory why don't men practice purda, it is also against commonsense and human nature. For 'n' number of muslim families Burqa is from where oppression of women start, don't venture out, don't drive, don't study, don't work are the extension of the mindset that burqa brings in

 

[Condor]

^^ There's another Doc who would be his kindred soul - the one caught up in Magdelene assault case.

 

[Spring Onion]

Jana, sometimes I wonder if you are talking in Pashtun and me in English!

Don't you see the difference between dressing modestly and covering yourself from top to bottom with just your eyes visible (if at all)?

Asim mentioned dupatta. Is that so different to what you must have seen most Indian women also doing? So where is the divergence?

If you do not, I give up and humbly agree to be a typically Indian narrow minded male.

Cheers, Doc

Pashtun is an ethnicity not language hehehe

anyway sometimes i feel i am speaking in Latin and you do not understand.


My post was not about shalwar kameez or scarf or burqa, but it was about the same mentality prevalent in India too where men stare at women and women to avoid these stares do try to cover up their bodies be it with modest Shalwar Kameez, Sari or dupata and it has nothing to do with Programming viz a viz a religion as you were trying to imply


As i mentioned in certain areas i do wear scarf or even burqa in my country and in certain i just wear chaadar or shawl. Now tell me do you think here the programming has been changed ???


It depends on my own ease whatever i feel is comfortable for me mentally i do so