Biden starts infrastructure bet with US far behind China

[beijingwalker]

spending fueled by stimulus in 2020...unstainable

LOl...whatever makes you happy

 

[crankthatskunk]

Talk about misrepresentation!

The goal is to update the infrastructure to maintain the competitiveness of USA, not to "beat" China. After all, four times the population would need more and different infrastructure than what USA needs.

Well, according to your logic, this should have been done long time ago. Gradually off course, but should have been at par with China and other advanced countries. If anything, with less population and less demand and challenges, it should have been easier for the USA to be at par with China.

 

[VCheng]

Well, according to your logic, this should have been done long time ago. Gradually off course, but should have been at par with China and other advanced countries. If anything, with less population and less demand and challenges, it should have been easier for the USA to be at par with China.

What does "at par" mean here, exactly?

 

[crankthatskunk]

What does "at par" mean here, exactly?

What!! Do you not understand "at par"!!

 

[VCheng]

What!! Do you not understand "at par"!!

Oh my! Aren't you too clever!


What I asked what what "at par" means in the context of this thread as it applies to infrastructure. Does it mean the miles of highways or train tracks, or to the passenger-miles carried, total or or per 1000 of population? How does one judge if two different systems in two different countries are "at par"? Number of air hostesses or the total number of airports, or planes? Or maybe the number of flights, or the number of passengers? Or may be it is none of that and whether one can send a container from one major hub to the other at the lowest cost and the shortest time?

The above are just explanatory examples not to be taken literally, but of course you already knew that. I hope.

 

[Nan Yang]

Wet dream? Why the US invented inter state super highways , suspension bridges , inter state rail...the list is long all this started in the late 1800s. Hell 70% of Chinese mega infrastructure projects are conceptualized in US and Europe. C'mon infrastructure is easy, we aren't Pakistan

The hard part was the desire to fund..and..the work force needed to build ... Chinese workers helped build our railroads in the 1800s ...this time we'll probably rely on automation.

Yes that is true. But do not dwell in past glories.

Today, there are more lawyers working on the California High Speed Rail than Engineers.

 

[crankthatskunk]

On my! Aren't you too clever!


What I asked what what "at par" means in the context of this thread as it applies to infrastructure. Does it mean the miles of highways or train tracks, or to the passenger-miles carried, total or or per 1000 of population? How does on judge if two different systems in two different countries are "at par"? Number of air hostesses or the total number of airports, or planes? Or maybe the number of flights, or the number of passengers? Or may be it is none of that and whether one can send a container from one major hub to the other at the lowest cost and the shortest time?

The above are just explanatory examples not to be taken literally, but of course you already knew that. I hope.

Oh my, and I thought you are clever.
At par, means that providing similar facilities and standard to its users. Mileage of roads, train track etc. is not the issue, a small advanced European Country wouldn't have that comparable to the USA, China or for that matter with India.

if a mile long road is in bad condition , it wouldn't be at par with a nicely laid road of 100 km or 1000 km.
China's infrastructure is new, modern and well kept. While USA is crumbling and old.

 

[AViet]

Because people travel by planes and private vehicles. Rails are for cargo in USA.

I have watched a lot of passenger railways documentary in the US. The line New York - Toronto (550 km) have an average speed of less than 50km/h (almost 13 hours)

There are still a lot of Amtrak trains, but the speed is pathetic.

However, freight trains in the US are OK, as double stack containers seems to be the norm on main routes.

 

[FuturePAF]

Wet dream? Why the US invented inter state super highways , suspension bridges , inter state rail...the list is long all this started in the late 1800s. Hell 70% of Chinese mega infrastructure projects are conceptualized in US and Europe. C'mon infrastructure is easy, we aren't Pakistan

The hard part was the desire to fund..and..the work force needed to build ... Chinese workers helped build our railroads in the 1800s ...this time we'll probably rely on automation.

Automation...pfff...we got Mexicans

As long as she is a buxom blonde, I wouldn't mind.

Seriously though, I have traveled extensively on US infrastructure. And in Europe. It is just a different order of priorities and preferences, and China is no different in this regards either.

Thr average individual American does have one of the highest standards of living, but has to travel on crap roads to get to where he needs to get. Your right it’s about priorities.

 

[FuturePAF]

I have watched a lot of passenger railways documentary in the US. The line New York - Toronto (550 km) have an average speed of less than 50km/h (almost 13 hours)

There are still a lot of Amtrak trains, but the speed is pathetic.

However, freight trains in the US are OK, as double stack containers seems to be the norm on main routes.

Amtrak was basically an afterthought. I’ve travelled the route your taking about; from New York up to Buffalo (didn’t take it to Toronto, so I can’t say). In a lot of Amtrak, Amtrak is like a government subsidized Greyhound bus service for the small towns and mid sized cities.

Americans want to live differently then the Chinese or even the Europeans. Spread out and Independent as possible. If America can get commuter rail and good public transport inside cities and connect it to a true high speed line, it would change job opportunities and tourism, bring on a revival. Those living in suburbs around cities out could drive to their nearest HSR station to get to a major job center, but those living very far out would have to continue issuing regional airport. If the train is fast enough, due all the delays with flying, a HSR train journey of up to approx. 750 miles can still be competitive with airplanes if the train travels at least 225-250 mph.

Only thing is, the government gonna have to spend hundred of billions at a minimum to get there.

Here is a recent speed test between DC and NYC with Amtrak’s Acela vs. a Flight

Spoiler: the plane won

Amtrak working on an even more express service between DC AND NY that will probably cut the journey time by a further 30 minutes. If only the places where the train is delayed, the tunnels and bridges are upgraded and the track is improved to allow the average speed (82 mph) to increase by at least 35% (110 mph) more it may be able to beat the plane. Btw the new trains will be able to go 220 mph, but it’s the track upgrades that will make the difference.

 

[VCheng]

Oh my, and I thought you are clever.
At par, means that providing similar facilities and standard to its users. Mileage of roads, train track etc. is not the issue, a small advanced European Country wouldn't have that comparable to the USA, China or for that matter with India.

if a mile long road is in bad condition , it wouldn't be at par with a nicely laid road of 100 km or 1000 km.
China's infrastructure is new, modern and well kept. While USA is crumbling and old.

Um, no. The infrastructure, its layout and choices depend on how well it serves the needs of the nation. Of course China's infrastructure is newer compared to USA's, since they are only now getting around to building it. The US systems may be old, but they have a freedom to travel that is still missing on China, and likely will not happen there at all. Ever.

I have watched a lot of passenger railways documentary in the US. The line New York - Toronto (550 km) have an average speed of less than 50km/h (almost 13 hours)

There are still a lot of Amtrak trains, but the speed is pathetic.

However, freight trains in the US are OK, as double stack containers seems to be the norm on main routes.

Well, most people take a sailship up the Hudson to the Mohawk river, then take a canal boat along the Erie Canal to Buffalo, and then it is only a short canoe paddle across Lake Ontario to Toronto. Or may be they take an airplane. What's the point here?

Thr average individual American does have one of the highest standards of living, but has to travel on crap roads to get to where he needs to get. Your right it’s about priorities.

I travel extensively here, regularly, along major, minor and off the beaten path routes. I can state that most roads are actually quite good, and serve their designed purposes very well.

Spoiler: the plane won

Amtrak working on an even more express service between DC AND NY that will probably cut the journey time by a further 30 minutes. If only the places where the train is delayed, the tunnels and bridges are upgraded and the track is improved to allow the average speed (82 mph) to increase by at least 35% (110 mph) more it may be able to beat the plane. Btw the new trains will be able to go 220 mph, but it’s the track upgrades that will make the difference.

Considering door-to-door times, it is probably is easier and quicker to travel by private vehicle on trips up to 4-500 miles, and then the airplane has an advantage that cannot be beat.

 

[FuturePAF]

Um, no. The infrastructure, its layout and choices depend on how well it serves the needs of the nation. Of course China's infrastructure is newer compared to USA's, since they are only now getting around to building it. The US systems may be old, but they have a freedom to travel that is still missing on China, and likely will not happen there at all. Ever.



Well, most people take a sailship up the Hudson to the Mohawk river, then take a canal boat along the Erie Canal to Buffalo, and then it is only a short canoe paddle across Lake Ontario to Toronto. Or may be they take an airplane. What's the point here?



I travel extensively here, regularly, along major, minor and off the beaten path routes. I can state that most roads are actually quite good, and serve their designed purposes very well.


Considering door-to-door times, it is probably is easier and quicker to travel by private vehicle on trips up to 4-500 miles, and then the airplane has an advantage that cannot be beat.

generally, yes the highways are decent, I meant local roads relatively speaking (they seem to be taking longer to fix pot holes), but point granted, most roads are decent

Amtrak’s Acela was only really competitive when the airport lines are long and traffic on the roads are heavy and you have to go city center to city center. For them to be truly competitive, they have to go a lot faster or at least not have to stop for heavy traffic. There needs to be enough capacity to allow the Amtrak trains to get through choke points like the Hudson River tunnel into New York without having to wait for local commuter lines like NJ transit.

 

[VCheng]

generally, yes the highways are decent, I meant local roads relatively speaking (they seem to be taking longer to fix pot holes), but point granted, most roads are decent

Amtrak’s Acela was only really competitive when the airport lines are long and traffic on the roads are heavy and you have to go city center to city center. For them to be truly competitive, they have to go a lot faster or at least not have to stop for heavy traffic. There needs to be enough capacity to allow the Amtrak trains to get through choke points like the Hudson River tunnel into New York without having to wait for local commuter lines like NJ transit.

For major metropolitan areas, commuter traffic takes priority, and on the long distance routes, freight traffic take priority over rail passenger traffic. That is just the way the system is designed to operate currently. Expecting USA to match other nation's choices for rail system is simply daft, given the preferences and needs of its own population.

If HSR rail ever makes sense, it will probably start along the eastern seaboard between major cities, and perhaps the west coast in a few select corridors. Even then, there will continue to be stiff competition from other modes of travel.

 

[crankthatskunk]

Um, no. The infrastructure, its layout and choices depend on how well it serves the needs of the nation. Of course China's infrastructure is newer compared to USA's, since they are only now getting around to building it. The US systems may be old, but they have a freedom to travel that is still missing on China, and likely will not happen there at all. Ever.

Oh I see, so its comes to the "Freedom" to travel. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of thoughts, "Democrazy", often heard sound bites coming from the champion of Democrazy USA.
When nothing else works use the trusted cards.

When you cannot prove someone's guilt, lie, concoct, and then go on killing spree. Off course, The Native Indians were threat to "our way of life". It is a shame the word "terrorism" wasn't the oft used word then, otherwise, the history would have known them as terrorists.

Last 500 years history is proof of that deceit.

Good try though.

The problem is for the USA and the old hag Europe that those tricks probably wouldn't work on China.
The work started over 12/15 years ago, the mantra "China is the next big threat" was heard then, now we are going to see concentrated campaigns to make China a devil it never had been.

Um, no. The infrastructure, its layout and choices depend on how well it serves the needs of the nation. Of course China's infrastructure is newer compared to USA's, since they are only now getting around to building it. The US systems may be old, but they have a freedom to travel that is still missing on China, and likely will not happen there at all. Ever.

Oh I see, so its comes to the "Freedom" to travel. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of thoughts, "Democrazy", often heard sound bites coming from the champion of Democrazy USA.
When nothing else works use the trusted cards.

When you cannot prove someone's guilt, lie, concoct, and then go on killing spree. Off course, The Native Indians were threat to "our way of life". It is a shame the word "terrorism" wasn't the oft used word then, otherwise, the history would have known them as terrorists.

Last 500 years history is proof of that deceit.

Good try though.

The problem is for the USA and the old hag Europe that those tricks probably wouldn't work on China.
The work started over 12/15 years ago, the mantra "China is the next big threat" was heard then, now we are going to see concentrated campaigns to make China a devil it never had been.

 

[VCheng]

Oh I see, so its comes to the "Freedom" to travel. Freedom of Speech, Freedom of thoughts, "Democrazy", often heard sound bites coming from the champion of Democrazy USA.
When nothing else works use the trusted cards.

Again, no. All I pointed out, in the context of this thread, that Americans can travel all they wish on their nation's infrastructure as often and and as far they like. That is a huge advantage, like it or not.