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Betrayed, Arabized

Elmo kee Bari Aapa Eleanor Roosevelt nay farmaaya:

"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."

Can we get back to the topic please? :D

Sure, sure. So what ideas are on the agenda today?
 
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Well, my point is, if we are being concerned by the Arabization of Pakistani culture, why not be concerned about the Westernization as well?, is it because we say to Westernization as Globalization , and pay no heed to this issue, but jump at the first instance of branding the Reading of Quran in arabic and offering prayer in Arabic .?
 
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Well, my point is, if we are being concerned by the Arabization of Pakistani culture, why not be concerned about the Westernization as well?, is it because we say to Westernization as Globalization , and pay no heed to this issue, but jump at the first instance of branding the Reading of Quran in arabic and offering prayer in Arabic .?

Like I said before, all cultures absorb foreign influences over time. No matter the origin, the changes absorbed should be beneficial and not destructive. I think that the present influences origination from Saudi Arabia and being actively financed and promoted inside Pakistan are creating havoc.

That is the main issue, but you are correct in that Westernization may cause other problems, but only if they are forced upon Pakistani society. However, that is not the major issue given the terrorism tearing apart civil society presently.
 
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Like I said before, all cultures absorb foreign influences over time. No matter the origin, the changes absorbed should be beneficial and not destructive. I think that the present influences origination from Saudi Arabia and being actively financed and promoted inside Pakistan are creating havoc.

That is the main issue, but you are correct in that Westernization may cause other problems, but only if they are forced upon Pakistani society. However, that is not the major issue given the terrorism tearing apart civil society presently.

But in what shapes is the Arab culture being enforced? Reading Quran in Arabic?
 
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But in what shapes is the Arab culture being enforced? Reading Quran in Arabic?

There have been many previous posts highlighting the variety of impositions, and they are NOT merely about the Quran's reading in Arabic.
 
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There have been many previous posts highlighting the variety of impositions, and they are NOT merely about the Quran's reading in Arabic.

In the previous posts, they have been expressed not in solid terms. Merely in round talks. There should be solid terms and solid examples.
 
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In the previous posts, they have been expressed not in solid terms. Merely in round talks. There should be solid terms and solid examples.

I think I should wait for Muse and others to do that for you. :)
 
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We had our own social ills which were exaggerated with the arrival of unnecessary Arabization during Bhutto's rule that was later formalized by Zia. We could have done without sectarian issues, we could have done without faux Islamic laws like Blasphemy, Zina etc and we surely want to run our own affairs but it all changed in those years.
There is always opposition to all religious groups but Majlis-e-Ahrar/Khatme-Nabuwat was a breakaway group created and funded by the Congress. Their intention was political and their purpose to stop the demand for Pakistan becoming stronger amongst the people of British India.

The Short And Sordid History Of Majlis-e-Ahrar-e-Islam | Pak Tea House

These people have every right to voice their opinion against Ahmadi's but when they spread hatred and instigate violence, then it become a state problem. Unfortunately they were able to get their demands to become a part of the constitution in this state. This all happened only after the Saudi's gave their stamp of approval and the pressure on Bhutto made him do the necessary.
The point is not who or what created K-N, but that religious bigotry and anti-Ahmadi sentiment was used in South Asia long before the Saudis did anything, and therefore cannot be solely blamed on the Saudis.

Like I said, the anti-Ahmadi movement existed since the 30's but they were only able to gain the kind of power that they did when the Saudis started to support them. In their view, Ahmadi's had been the worst thing to walk on this planet but it was just their view, however it become a part of the constitution through Saudi pressure and later a Saudi scholar.
And why did Pakistanis not oppose this 'anti-Ahmadi' movement then, if the only reason it became law was Saudi pressure on Bhutto? Where were the mass demonstrations and outrage against the vilification of an entire community in Pakistan?

Anti-Ahmadi sentiment in South Asian nations existed long before Bhutto did anything
The Saudi's say they are directly involved as participants in running the state of Pakistan

WikiLeaks Reveals Saudi Arabia's Role in Pakistani Affairs - TIME

So if they claim to be participants, then they also have a role in our pathetic state.
That is a rhetorical argument, not a factual one - a factual argument would involve evidence indicating direct Saudi pressure in enacting Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws.

A factual argument would indicate Saudi involvement in promoting honor killings, rape by Jirga, marriages with the Quran, murders of female relatives over property etc.

I am not blaming the Arabs for all our ills, what I do blame them for is their involvment in the state of Pakistan which was furthered excavated our problems.
Pakistan's problems have been exacerbated by a lack of governance, a lack of security, corrupt law enforcement and lack of justice for the common man, and not by the Saudis. Even with the existing Blasphemy and anti-Ahmadi laws in place, an independent law enforcement and judicial system would not allow the promotion and perpetration of violence in the name of religion that occurs in Pakistan today.

As Pakistan commentators often argue, the problems in Pakistan are not the existing laws, flawed laws or lack of laws, the problems in Pakistan are the lack of IMPLEMENTATION of the existing laws.

The Sauds even sent a scholar to implement laws in Pakistan which has caused nothing but problems for Pakistan.
Again, the problem is that Pakistan's existing laws are not being implemented and governance has gone to the dogs, and not the presence of a token Saudi Scholar here and there.
They were unsuccessful indeed but it would take a lot to prove Zafarullah wrong over such matters.

What it would take to prove Zafarullah wrong is irrelevant, I am just pointing out, in the context of our discussion, that the Saudis did not influence Pakistan's leadership at the time, and therefore that particular incident cannot be used as justification for the argument that the 'Arabs are imposing Arab values on Pakistan'.

However as time went by, the Saudi's were successful in forcing a particular interpretation of Islam upon Pakistani society through constitutional changes. Allama Iqbal's son came on TV recently and gave a complete detail of what occured in the 80's.

Was Jinnah secular? – The Express Tribune

This was the first instance where foreign pressure caused Pakistani's to alter something that damaged the effectiveness of law in this country.
And how can you be certain that the Arabs forced Dualibi on Zia, instead of Zia inviting Dualibi and having him assist in the framing of his so called 'Islamic Laws'?

As for Maududi, he was the only one who was of the same thought process as the Saudi's and he became their man in Pakistan leading the way for its eventual Islamization.
But Madudi was not brainwashed by the Saudis was he? He chose to pursue a particular ideology, and promote it, of his own volition, as did his followers. If he was successful in pressuring the government to follow his ideological agenda, then again that speaks to the weakness of the Pakistani leadership, or perhaps the ideological inclinations of the Pakistani leadership.

The Saudis used their money to promote their 'religious beliefs', much like the Yanks are doing in terms of trying to project their world view in Pakistan, the fault lies with Pakistanis in not presenting an equally forceful narrative and building a vocal lobby to influence Pakistani leadership.



Pakisan's responsibility is to be factual in their standing, they should find their own faults which allowed this to occur and who are the "participants" in all this. The "participants" should be paid in kind, that is all.
Pakistanis are responsible for standing up to the Pakistani leadership when they take decisions that are supposedly 'alien to our demographic and culture', Pakistanis are responsible for thinking for themselves and vocalizing their opinions and pressuring their elected leadership to move the country in the direction Pakistanis want.

Creating bogeyman in the 'Arabis and Agencies' is no way to be 'responsible', and will change nothing.

Arabization is the forced implementation of a distorted and intolerant interpretation of Islam.
The what are 'Honor Killings, rape by Jirga, marriages with the Quran'?

'Pakization'? Is that something to be proud of in contrast to 'Arabization'? How about being responsible for our state of affairs and pressuring our leadership to reform the country and actually implement the existing laws?
We don't but our leaders do, especially over matters of religion.

But then the problem is the leaders we either 'elect', or support when they 'carry out coups'.

Why blame the Arabs for our own corrupt political class that we keep voting back into power, both through voting for them and apathy towards the electoral process?
 
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Again, who forced Bhutto to implement anti-Ahmadi laws, and, as I pointed out, anti-Ahmadi sentiment in South Asian nations existed long before Bhutto.

Which all?
 
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Which all?
Please refer back to the previous two or three posts in my exchange with T-Faz. You can click on the link to T-Faz's post, and then use that to link to my post ...


And here we now have an example of forced 'Chinazation' : :woot:


Schools in Pakistan's Sindh province to teach Chinese

The government of the Pakistani province of Sindh has announced plans to make Chinese compulsory in schools from 2013.
All educational institutions in the province will have to provide Chinese language courses from class six (10-11-year-olds), it says.
The provincial government says that the decision was taken because of Pakistan's close ties with China.
The two countries have been strong allies for more than 50 years.
In May, Prime Minister Yousuf Raza Gilani described China as his country's "best friend".
But some critics say the plan is political, will need considerable investment in teaching staff and materials, and further stretch limited resources.
Sindh Education Minister Pir Mazhar-ul-Haq said that the initiative reflected China's growing role as an economic giant in the world and would benefit Pakistan in the long term.
"Our trade, educational and other relations are growing with China everyday and now it is necessary for our younger generation to have command over their language," he said.
The provincial government says that students will be given incentives, including foreign scholarships, to encourage them to study Chinese.
The Sindh government says that it will seek help from China to go ahead with the plan and is now in the process of devising a syllabus.
Teachers critical of the scheme say it will put an additional burden on them and students, who already have to learn three languages - English, Urdu and Sindhi - as compulsory subjects.

BBC News - Schools in Pakistan's Sindh province to teach Chinese
 
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Well, in the OIC conference which was held in Lahore, ZAB went to recieve the newly crowned sultan of Oman, Sultan Qaboos-Bin-Said-Al-Said. At that time, the Sultan(His Majesty) had a British military advisor . The HM brought the Military advisor with him to Lahore. Seeing the british advisor at the airport, ZAB was livid and said to the Sultan, 'we are trying to get rid of these people and you bring him here to the conference? '. The Sultan was very angry at this.
When ZAB went to Oman, to inaugurate the Pakistan School Muscat, the HM did not come to receive him at the airport. ZAB was angry and enquired, the people explained that the Sultan does not go to the airport to receive dignitaries, although he does sometimes, for Europeans mostly. ZAB did not meet the Sultan as per schedule, and instead, straight away went to the inauguration and then went back to Pakistan.

So , point is, everything has not been tutti fruti between Pakistan and the Arabs.

Pakistan as a nation, and also as a state(on most occasions) , has not accepted Arab culture openly. Quran in Arabic and the Arabic influence in language is not Arabization.
 
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Elmo kee Bari Aapa Eleanor Roosevelt nay farmaaya:

"Great minds discuss ideas; Average minds discuss events; Small minds discuss people."

Can we get back to the topic please? :D

Exactly something that I suggested a while back to one more individual who obsesses about individuals rather than issues (and is/was a self appointed false flag catcher).
 
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I dont know why every thing is enforced on us- now tell me whats the use of learning Chinese in a province which does not even share a border with china-

i hate all these forms of forced izations-
 
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