Betrayed, Arabized

[muse]

I would argue that even though things have become worse, the threat of Salafi radicalization overpowering & displacing the traditional Sufi/Barelvi fabric in our society is greatly exaggerated, & it won't ever be happening, as this mindset transpires in only a few people, the extreme minority (although their numbers are increasing).

Both data and events negate your assumption - the so called barelvi fabric, it seems, is now a fabrication - after all, how do we distinguish between it's hate filled political/religious violence from that of it's opposition. Perhaps something else is going on, something to do with seeing violence as the tool of political/religious thought.

 

[53fd]

Excuse me, how does the thoughts of Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia or Japan mean any less than a Muslim from Iran or Saudi Arabia?

A Muslim is a Muslim, regardless of which part of the world he comes from.

Saudi Arabia isn't the definition of Islam nor is Islam all about Saudi Arabia.

You completely misconstrued my statement, on a personal level, I agree with your post completely.

You missed out the part in bold:

Hence, the Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia, Japan; while being perfectly legitimate Muslims, are insignificant in the eyes of rest (& most) of the Muslims over the world; so it doesn't matter who they are or what they think.

 

[53fd]

Both data and events negate your assumption - the so called barelvi fabric, it seems, is now a fabrication - after all, how do we distinguish between it's hate filled political/religious violence from that of it's opposition. Perhaps something else is going on, something to do with seeing violence as the tool of political/religious thought.

I would like to see the data supporting your argument. If my assumption was wrong, that even 80% of Pakistanis were engaged in Takfiri thoughts/ideology, Pakistan would not be in existence today. Pakistan would have been taken over by the Taliban & the other terrorists, & would eventually cease to exist. However, more than 80% of the Pakistani population is backing the Pakistan Army against the terrorists. It is just that the minority is trying to hijack Pakistan, & are the 'loudest'.

 

[Developereo]

Let leave aside ancillary issues of dress and language which, due to their general nature, tend to border on racism and stereotyping.

To expand on this point, there are two issues being mixed up in this thread.

One is the issue of extremist intolerance in certain brands of Islam.

The second is the alleged replacement of Pakistani culture by Arab culture.

I think it's fair to say that most people here agree on the seriousness of the first issue and this debate is creating divisions where none exist.

On the second matter, the only point of contention is that some people are selective in their indignation, whereas a more balanced approach would decry all foreign usurpation of Pakistani culture, including the ones favored by certain elites.

 

[muse]

Billu

There is a study by Dr. Siddiqa in which she concludes radicalism is mainstream and a kind of pop culture in Pakistan - and you only have to look at what the religious minorities suffer at the hands of both adherents (true Muslims) and the state, and of course the insurgency itself, to see that the problem in it's true dimensions.

4 killed as two religious groups trade fire

Staff Report

KARACHI: At least four people were killed and half a dozen others, including women, injured during an exchange of fire between two religious groups late on Sunday night in Godhra Camp, New Karachi.

Police officials said two religious groups, Deoband and Barelvi, exchanged fire after one Noor Mohammad belonging to Barelvi school of thought was gunned down in an act of target killing. Later, three more people, including Bilal Yaqoob, Sohail and Ismail Abdullah, were killed while at least six others, including women were wounded.

The bodies and injured were shifted to Abbasi Shaheed Hospital. Tension prevailed in Godhra Camp area after intense firing between the two religious groups, where routine and commercial activities were suspended. A heavy contingent of law enforcers was called at the site of incident but they failed to control the worsened situation of law and order.

 

[53fd]

Separation of church and state.

There is a wide spectrum between French-style secularism and Iranian/Saudi-style theocracy. Hard to say where 'most Muslims' would want to be.

Just see what the state of most of the Muslims around the world is, that should tell you what Muslims want.

Islam is spreading quickest in the poor countries of Africa. I lived in Nigeria for 4 years, my very own driver was a graduate of a Madrassah from Kano (North Africa), & used to tell me not to play soccer, or watch it, because it was haram. Islam is spreading quickly in many poor regions in the world (even here in the poor neighborhoods of America) as a result of a backlash in society, people losing their trust in the governments. Just look at how the Al-Shabaab recruit in Somalia, or how the AQIM do in North Africa, or how the AQAP does in Saudi Arabia & Yemen. Islam is the fastest growing religion, but as a backlash, mostly in poor regions of the world. Many moderate minded people are leaving Islam, & converting to other religions or being agnostics.

But ideologies don't exist in a vacuum; they are promoted by individuals -- in this case, wealthy individuals in the Gulf states. Let's focus on the problem of these ideologies, their promotion within Pakistan, and the individuals involved.

Let leave aside ancillary issues of dress and language which, due to their general nature, tend to border on racism and stereotyping.

I have explained to you where the problem lies with the Takfiri ideology in great detail. As a whole, I think the Pakistani society is too diverse, too non-homogeneous to accept such an ideology.

 

[muse]

On the second matter, the only point of contention is that some people are selective in their indignation, whereas a more balanced approach would decry all foreign usurpation of Pakistani culture, including the ones favored by certain elites.

This seems to me to be just very wrong headed -- after all, not all foreign cultures are having the effect of dividing Pakistanis on the basis of religious ideals and propositions.

The notion we are or should be focusing on is what judgment can we arrive at with regard to Islam = Arab -- No other foreign culture has a built propagation as does this idea through the clerics who in turn get much funding for their pet projects from arabia.

Now, this funding would be most welcome if the ideas promoted made Pakistan stronger, or if it created genuinely educated productive members of society - instead we have seen a sharp rise in intolerance and violence all justified by religious propositions, an entire insurgency has developed around the ideas, islam itself now has six pilllars and may have many more in the near future -- should this be allowed?

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Perhaps something else is going on, something to do with seeing violence as the tool of political/religious thought.

The article posted by T-Faz, in the context of violence against the Ahmadis, would appear to indicate that that particular 'bridge' was crossed a long time ago.

The people indigenous to Pakistan are no some descendants of angels Muse - we have just as much ability and desire for intolerance and violence to enforce patriarchal and medieval beliefs and policies as any other human being.

You should really end this farce of trying to paint Pakistan and Pakistanis as some innocent 'babes' who were 'spoiled by the barbaric and cunning Arab hordes'.

Money talks - the Saudis are pumping it into Pakistan as are the Yanks and Chinese. Our 'elected leadership' has no interest in turning off any of these spigots, and for that matter neither do the Armed Forces.

So where do these rants against the "Arabi' lead to? At the end of the day Pakistanis need to be responsible for their own actions, and an alternate 'religious movement and narrative' is not going to arise without the civilian institutions functioning like they should and delivering security to the masses.

 

[53fd]

Billu

There is a study by Dr. Siddiqa in which she concludes radicalism is mainstream and a kind of pop culture in Pakistan - and you only have to look at what the religious minorities suffer at the hands of both adherents (true Muslims) and the state, and of course the insurgency itself, to see that the problem in it's true dimensions.

4 killed as two religious groups trade fire

Staff Report

KARACHI: At least four people were killed and half a dozen others, including women, injured during an exchange of fire between two religious groups late on Sunday night in Godhra Camp, New Karachi.

Police officials said two religious groups, Deoband and Barelvi, exchanged fire after one Noor Mohammad belonging to Barelvi school of thought was gunned down in an act of target killing. Later, three more people, including Bilal Yaqoob, Sohail and Ismail Abdullah, were killed while at least six others, including women were wounded.

The bodies and injured were shifted to Abbasi Shaheed Hospital. Tension prevailed in Godhra Camp area after intense firing between the two religious groups, where routine and commercial activities were suspended. A heavy contingent of law enforcers was called at the site of incident but they failed to control the worsened situation of law and order.

There is no doubt that there is a struggle going on between the radical extremists against the rest of the Pakistanis.

As I said, there is a 'minority' extremist group trying to overpower everyone else. How big is this 'minority' group? Is it a few thousands? No. Is it close to a million people, or a few million? Most probably yes.

My point is, while the number of extremists in Pakistan is not small (but enough to cause Pakistan & Pakistanis plenty of damage), they are still the overwhelming minority of Pakistan; & pose minimal threat to the existence of Pakistan. As I said, if the majority of Pakistanis (80% or more) had extremist thoughts, Pakistan would cease to exist today.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

There is no doubt that there is a struggle going on between the radical extremists against the rest of the Pakistanis.

As I said, there is a 'minority' extremist group trying to overpower everyone else. How big is this 'minority' group? Is it a few thousands? No. Is it close to a million people, or a few million? Possibly yes. In most probability, yes.

My point is, while the number of extremists in Pakistan is not small (but enough to cause Pakistan & Pakistanis plenty of damage), they are still the overwhelming minority of Pakistan; & pose minimal threat to the existence of Pakistan.

If the Army can be, for the most part, disciplined and be made to act apolitically, then why cannot the civilian law enforcement institutions and judiciary, who could then act against those who threaten and perpetrate violence in the guise of religion, and allow space to the moderates, especially those who remain silent out of fear.

Goes back to 'reforming basic governance'.

 

[Developereo]

This seems to me to be just very wrong headed -- after all, not all foreign cultures are having the effect of dividing Pakistanis on the basis of religious ideals and propositions.

The notion we are or should be focusing on is what judgment can we arrive at with regard to Islam = Arab -- No other foreign culture has a built propagation as does this idea through the clerics who in turn get much funding for their pet projects from arabia.

Now, this funding would be most welcome if the ideas promoted made Pakistan stronger, or if it created genuinely educated productive members of society - instead we have seen a sharp rise in intolerance and violence all justified by religious propositions, an entire insurgency has developed around the ideas, islam itself now has six pilllars and may have many more in the near future -- should this be allowed?

I think we are all on the same page that certain groups are using their brand of Islam as a Trojan horse to push their political agenda, and that we should block these moves.

As to the question of comparing which foreign influences have more redeeming features than others, I think we can also all agree to take the best from all cultures and avoid the pitfalls. I know it sounds like a platitude, but I don't feel comfortable with the generalizations in the original article.

 

[muse]

My point is, while the number of extremists in Pakistan is not small (but enough to cause Pakistan & Pakistanis plenty of damage), they are still the overwhelming minority of Pakistan; & pose minimal threat to the existence of Pakistan.

If you ever get to it, read "Logic of Collective action" by Mancur Olson -- One of the points Dr. Olson illuminates is why minorities are successful in particular actions where majorities fail -- I think the numbers game may be leading us down the wrong path - The prize remains the army - a tiny minority of Pakistanis - and within that minority, an even smaller minority, officers.

So, not saying that numbers don't count, just that it may be more complicated a picture than you are using at present.

Coming back to the original issue, the idea being propagated, islam = arab and what judgement we should accord this proposition, the only person clear about it has been writing to us from HK -- Others. Santro for instance has offered that yes, such a phenomenon is at work and is primarily implemented through clerics, others hide their denial in charges that the lead articel or the thread is anti-arab, it's interesting that they do not see it as pro-Pakistani, though perhaps to them ,necessarily,, pro arab is the same as pro Pakistan.

---------- Post added at 05:24 AM ---------- Previous post was at 05:23 AM ----------

I don't feel comfortable with the generalizations in the original article

Would you be willing to highlight those generalizations? I think it will allow us to sharpen our focus

 

[53fd]

Muse bhai, I know you have a particular distaste for (the Arabic term) 'Jihad', & the Pakistani Army for using this term. You also have a distaste for "Arabic culture", for 'Arabic' dress. Let me tell you, I do not support the Niqab, I think it is un-Islamic & is a security risk, & I lauded France for banning it. But that's just my personal opinion. My point is, just because someone embraces Arabic culture (Arabic dress or language) does not make them an extremist or a terrorist: societies evolve over time, it's a natural thing. There was life in our ancient land of Pakistan before the Vedas were written as well. One civilization comes, & in many cases, displaces the other. That's a fact of life: societies evolve.

 

[Developereo]

Would you be willing to highlight those generalizations? I think it will allow us to sharpen our focus

Well, just at a quick glance, here is the concluding paragraph from the original article:

To conclude, I will take liberty to speak for me and the third generation, I belong to too, who has the privilege to breathe in the airs of this still-not-so-pure-land and is much Pakistani now. I’m not going to mourn the Indus Valley civilization, but what is the substitute they offer me if it’s not desert? I refrain from whining about the bitter reality that I don’t have the clue of half of indigenous literature that has been written in Persian, but to say what do they have in the pipeline for me? I have nothing against whatsoever version of religion, but how would they justify the attacks on the shrines of my land? I’m all for endorsing their policies, but what is the vindication they have of myriads of dead bodies of my country-fellows? I’m ready to relinquish Khusrow, Ghalib, Bhittai, Bhulla, Rahman Baba and Gul Khan, but can they introduce me to the single one of this stature? I shall not question them, but will they care to tell me, ‘who am I’?

It promotes the stereotype of Arabs as desert-dwelling nomads devoid of literary culture.

 

[muse]

My point is, just because someone embraces Arabic culture (Arabic dress or language) does not make them an extremist or a terrorist, societies evolve over time. There was life in our ancient of Pakistan before the Vedas were written as well. One civilization comes, & in many cases, displaces the other. That's a fact of life: societies evolve.

Absolutely - also let me say I have zero problem with what fashion sense someone freely chooses for him or herself, or who he or she chooses to associate with or express themselves with, however, I will allow for no such tolerance for the ideas behind these, as highlighted in the lead article ---again refer to the lead article, look at the question:

I will take liberty to speak for me and the third generation, I belong to too, who has the privilege to breathe in the airs of this still-not-so-pure-land and is much Pakistani now. I’m not going to mourn the Indus Valley civilization, but what is the substitute they offer me if it’s not desert?

As Developero has put it, behind these sign posts in culture are ideas animating, promoting these and these are a manifestation of an ideology - and this should concern us, not because it is a ideology but what kind of ideology, what the substance of the ideology is.

It promotes the stereotype of Arabs as desert-dwelling nomads devoid of literary culture.

Fair enough, perhaps you will point out why it is not a desert, why those living there are not desert dwellers and perhaps you will also high light the rich literary history of the country -- Come on, now develepero, we are speaking of Arabia, not Egypt or Syria