Betrayed, Arabized

[53fd]

Thanks for highlighting this.

To me, 'Arab culture' means a whole lot more than 'Saudi wahhabism'. The Arabs of Morocco, Lebanon, and Palestine are so very different from the stereotypical 'Royal Saudi wahhabi Arab' that it is ridiculous to lump them all together. It is very offensive to these Arabs that their culture should be stereotyped by the wahhabis.

It is precisely this kind of careless generalization which makes it hard to fight extermism and intolerance within Pakistan. It gives the extremist mullahs precisely the kind of ammunition they need to portray any opposition as an attack on Islam and "the Prophet's culture". We need to make it crystal clear that we are fighting the extremist, intolerant scourge of wahhabism -- not 'Arab culture' per se.

We are all opposed to extremist indoctrination and suppression of Pakistani culture. Proponents on both sides of the debate have been very vocal -- in this very forum -- about our support for Pakistan's identity and cultural traditions, but the debate has been hijacked by talk of 'Arabization' instead of focussing on specific ideologies.

I think we need to make a distinction between 'Arabic culture' & 'Arabic religious beliefs'. There is nothing wrong with embracing Arabic culture as societies evolve over time: culture comes from a wide range of nations/people. There is no 'right or wrong' in cultural values, it is a matter of one's personal choice. 'Arabic religious beliefs' are different from 'Arabic culture', because they are almost exclusively influenced by the state instituted Salafi Takfiri ideology in SA, creating religious intolerance in people/society, & a 'I'm right, you're wrong' Takfiri mentality when exploring differing religious interpretations.

 

[Developereo]

'Arabic religious beliefs' are different from 'Arabic culture', because they are almost exclusively influenced by the state instituted Salafi Takfiri ideology in Saudi Arabia, creating religious intolerance in people/society, & a 'I'm right, you're wrong' Takfiri mentality when exploring differing religious interpretations. That's how I see it.

I would agree with you if you replace 'Arabic religious beliefs' in that sentence with 'Saudi/Wahhabi political agenda'.

Just because they call it 'Islam' doesn't mean we have to buy their sales pitch. They are pushing a political agenda under the guise of 'Islam' but we all agree -- on all sides -- that Pakistan should not be a party to that agenda.

 

[53fd]

I would agree with you if you replace 'Arabic religious beliefs' in that sentence with 'Saudi/Wahhabi political agenda'.

Just because they call it 'Islam' doesn't mean we have to buy their sales pitch.

The reason why I am using 'Arabic religious beliefs' is because almost all religious narration/interpretation of Islamic history comes from this country. Arabic culture comes from all Arab countries, just listen to differing Arabic music styles (Algerian, Egyptian etc), or anything else. Everyone is a part of Arabic culture, but only Saudi Arabia (for the most part) is a part of the "Arabic religious beliefs". The Quran was revealed on this land, the House of God is there, the Masjid-Nabvi. This is where Islam got its birth.

Just because you or I aren't influenced by their sales pitch doesn't mean most of the Muslim world isn't. After all, Saudi Arabia is the cradle of Islamic civilization, who many Muslims across the world 'emulate'. Muslims all over the world look up to Saudi Arabia, going for Hajj & Umrah every year.

 

[53fd]

I would agree with you if you replace 'Arabic religious beliefs' in that sentence with 'Saudi/Wahhabi political agenda'.

Just because they call it 'Islam' doesn't mean we have to buy their sales pitch. They are pushing a political agenda under the guise of 'Islam' but we all agree -- on all sides -- that Pakistan should not be a party to that agenda.

Pakistan wants to be on close terms with Saudi Arabia, as it (Saudi Arabia) is one of the most strategically important countries in the world, it (Saudi Arabia) serves as a gateway for Pakistan to the Western world. The Pakistani state (& the people) have no fondness towards their Salafi ideology, which is why the Pakistani state has not instituted this extreme religious interpretation like Saudi Arabia has.

 

[Developereo]

Just because you or I aren't influenced by their sales pitch doesn't mean most of the Muslim world isn't. After all, Saudi Arabia is the cradle of Islamic civilization, who many Muslims across the world 'emulate'. Muslims all over the world look up to Saudi Arabia, going for Hajj & Umrah every year.

I think you are not giving enough credit to ordinary people. The Muslims of Turkey, Malaysia, and Japan are perfectly legitimate Muslims who don't buy into the Saudi (or Iranian) extremist ideologies. These Muslims retain their indigenous culture and history, while selectively adopting some Arabic customs via Islam. They are capable of distinguishing between the historical Arabian culture as it relates to Islam and the relatively modern Trojan horse of wahhabism.

(Saudi Arabia) serves as a gateway for Pakistan to the Western world.

You're kidding, right?

 

[muse]

Caving in to pressure: Ahmadi place of worship demolished
By Owais Raza
Published: September 4, 2011

Destruction came in the wake of local demonstrations, minority community lodges peaceful protest. PHOTO: AFP/FILE
LODHRAN:

The municipal administration has razed to the ground an under-construction Ahmadi place of worship in Jannat Wala, a village on the outskirts of Lodhran, after clerics staged protests.

Construction was suspended after labourers working at the site received death threats and some were forced to flee the village to save their lives. Muslim clerics pressurised the district government to take action when they came to know about the new place of worship. They organised processions against the government in surrounding villages and protested against what they deemed to be its ‘unwillingness to check the propagation of the Ahmadi religion.’

The government, however, denies that the destruction had anything to do with anti-Ahmadi sentiment in the community. The Tehsil Municipal Administration (TMA) razed the building on the orders of DCO Lodhran, Ghulam Fareed. More than 60% construction on the double storey building had been completed when it was torn down.

“The construction was not authorised nor was the building’s design approved by TMA which is why we have demolished it,” Fareed told The Express Tribune. “There is no other reason.”

It was declared as a store according to the DCO. Amir, a member of the Ahmadiya community, said they were not even given time to approach the courts. TMA officials said they had failed to follow the legal procedure which prompted the action.

Members of the Ahmadi community said they had protested peacefully before the DCO. This was confirmed by Maqbool Khalid, a journalist. Most of them refuse to come on record due to fear of death threats and live in fear of Ahle-Sunnat wal Jamaat members. They have been living in Adaa Zakheera, Kahroar Pakka, Dunyapur, Lodhran and Qutubpur. They have six places worship in the area.

Published in The Express Tribune, September 4th, 2011.

 

[53fd]

I think you are not giving enough credit to ordinary people. The Muslims of Turkey, Malaysia, and Japan are perfectly legitimate Muslims who don't buy into the Saudi (or Iranian) extremist ideologies. These Muslims retain their indigenous culture and history, while selectively adopting some Arabic customs via Islam. They are capable of distinguishing between the historical Arabian culture as it relates to Islam and the relatively modern Trojan horse of wahhabism.

Again, this is where the distinction lies: there are all kinds of Muslims. Many Muslims are even considered "Muslim by name" or "Muslims by birth". There are all kinds of Muslims: practicing ones, non-practicing ones, agnostic ones etc. There is a thought in the rest of the Muslim world that goes along the lines of "it's not good enough to be a Muslim, we should aspire to be a pious one. And: it's not good enough to be Muslim nation, we need to be a practicing Islamic one". This is where Saudi Arabia or Iran comes in. In other words, the Muslims are fallible but Islam is 'infallible' in the eyes of Muslims. Hence, the Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia, Japan; while being perfectly legitimate Muslims, are insignificant in the eyes of rest (& most) of the Muslims over the world; so it doesn't matter who they are or what they think.

You're kidding, right?

Maybe I didn't phrase it right, but Saudi Arabia is a very strategically important country, by its geographical location as well as many other aspects, especially in the West & for Western nations. How has the monarchy managing to make it through year after year, when they have instated the ideology that breeds extremism in their country & over the world, when most of the 9/11 were Saudis?

 

[53fd]

I think you are not giving enough credit to ordinary people. The Muslims of Turkey, Malaysia, and Japan are perfectly legitimate Muslims who don't buy into the Saudi (or Iranian) extremist ideologies. These Muslims retain their indigenous culture and history, while selectively adopting some Arabic customs via Islam. They are capable of distinguishing between the historical Arabian culture as it relates to Islam and the relatively modern Trojan horse of wahhabism.

The trojan horse of Wahabism might be new, but it is thought by many Muslims as 'revisionism' & a 'cleansing ideology'. To them, it 'cleanses' the religion from the "un-Islamic practices" followed by our ancestors in the name of religion. Which according to these people would include going to shrines, praising Prophet(S) in the form of qawaalis/milaad, & other many things. The fact that this extremist Salafi Takfiri 'my interpretation is right, everyone else's is wrong' ideology has managed to infest in Saudi Arabia with no protest/resistance from the people goes to show how deeply rooted the problem is.

 

[muse]

The fact that this extremist Salafi Takfiri 'my interpretation is right, everyone else's is wrong' ideology has managed to infest in Saudi Arabia with no protest/resistance of the people goes to show how severe the problem is.

This may now be the case but study the history of it in arabia - it took a lot of bloodshed (jihad) to get Wahabism as paramount.


All readers, Please review the lead article - the author poses the question to which I think none of the readers have internalized:

I will take liberty to speak for me and the third generation, I belong to too, who has the privilege to breathe in the airs of this still-not-so-pure-land and is much Pakistani now. I’m not going to mourn the Indus Valley civilization, but what is the substitute they offer me if it’s not desert? I refrain from whining about the bitter reality that I don’t have the clue of half of indigenous literature that has been written in Persian, but to say what do they have in the pipeline for me? I have nothing against whatsoever version of religion, but how would they justify the attacks on the shrines of my land? I’m all for endorsing their policies, but what is the vindication they have of myriads of dead bodies of my country-fellows? I’m ready to relinquish Khusrow, Ghalib, Bhittai, Bhulla, Rahman Baba and Gul Khan, but can they introduce me to the single one of this stature?

 

[53fd]

All readers, Please review the lead article - the author poses the question to which I think none of the readers have internalized:

The answer to your question in my humble opinion:

Societies evolve. In the past, humans were more uncivilized, they destroyed civilizations & created new ones. In today's "civilized" world, there is nothing wrong with starting 'new civilizations' through new cultures, but as long as the previous ones aren't threatened. In the case of Pakistan, I would argue that even though things have become worse, the threat of Salafi radicalization overpowering & displacing the traditional Sufi/Barelvi fabric in our society is greatly exaggerated, & it won't ever be happening, as this mindset transpires in only a few people, the extreme minority (although their numbers are increasing).

 

[Developereo]

Hence, the Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia, Japan; while being perfectly legitimate Muslims, are insignificant in the eyes of rest (& most) of the Muslims over the world; so it doesn't matter who they are or what they think.

The issue is not what Turks or Malays or Japanese think of others -- specifically Pakistanis -- but what they think of themselves.

Your argument carries an implicit assumption: that most Muslims view the Saudis as the arbiters of Islamic piety. First of all, I don't buy that. Most Muslims appreciate the importance of Saudi Arabia in Islam's history but they don't give any special importance to the current crop of Saudi rulers. I mentioned these other Muslims precisely to illustrate the point that they don't give two figs about Saudi opinion, and neither should we. If we keep chasing validation by the Saudis or Iranians, we will surely lose our way.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

due to fear of death threats and live in fear of Ahle-Sunnat wal Jamaat members.

You do realize that this group is a 'barelvi/Sufi inspired' group supposedly 'indigenous' to South Asia.

What is 'Arab' here exactly?

 

[53fd]

The issue is not what Turks or Malays or Japanese think of others -- specifically Pakistanis -- but what they think of themselves.

Your argument carries an implicit assumption: that most Muslims view the Saudis as the arbiters of Islamic piety. First of all, I don't buy that. Most Muslims appreciate the importance of Saudi Arabia in Islam's history but they don't give any special importance to the current crop of Saudi rulers. I mentioned these other Muslims precisely to illustrate the point that they don't give two figs about Saudi opinion, and neither should we. If we keep chasing validation by the Saudis or Iranians, we will surely lose our way.

Again, even if I assume your point to be true: that most Muslims don't view the Saudi people as the arbiters of piety, most Muslims see their fellow Muslims (whether they are Saudi or anyone else) as human beings: fallible, prone to sin (a Christian concept). However, Islam & Islamic society is infallible. If you were to ask most Muslims all over the world if they prefer to live in an Islamic country, as compared to a secular, non-Islamic Muslim majority one; they would opt for the first one. Hence, it is not the Saudi people that are the problem, but Saudi Arabia & the ideology it represents.

 

[RezRoll]

Hence, the Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia, Japan; while being perfectly legitimate Muslims, are insignificant in the eyes of rest (& most) of the Muslims over the world; so it doesn't matter who they are or what they think.

Excuse me, how does the thoughts of Muslims from Turkey, Malaysia or Japan mean any less than a Muslim from Iran or Saudi Arabia?

A Muslim is a Muslim, regardless of which part of the world he comes from.

Saudi Arabia isn't the definition of Islam nor is Islam all about Saudi Arabia.

 

[Developereo]

If you were to ask most Muslims all over the world if they prefer to live in an Islamic country, as compared to a secular, non-Islamic Muslim majority one; they would opt for the first one.

Separation of church and state.

There is a wide spectrum between French-style secularism and Iranian/Saudi-style theocracy. Hard to say where 'most Muslims' would want to be.

Hence, it is not the Saudi people that are the problem, but Saudi Arabia & the ideology it represents.

But ideologies don't exist in a vacuum; they are promoted by individuals -- in this case, wealthy individuals in the Gulf states. Let's focus on the problem of these ideologies, their promotion within Pakistan, and the individuals involved.

Let leave aside ancillary issues of dress and language which, due to their general nature, tend to border on racism and stereotyping.