Best BVR Capable Fighter in South Asia

[rockstarIN]

There won't be any surprises since both ave early warning systems..and there is no stealth air craft.

 

[Taha Samad]

Agree to all your points, in fact BVR won't be one to one anyways.

And regarding PAF BVR capability in 2008, as you said it is still not clear and I was debating about the platform for this only, you need considerable modifications in the jet to incorporate the BVR with its radar and communication systems. You need to guide the BVR into the target.

Rgds,

If the BVR news is true most probably Mirage III F-7PG would have been equipped to launch them.As their radars were being manufactured in Pakistan. But since no information is out there we can only speculate.But as of now PAF has AIM 120's and sooner or later SD-10's will be integrated if they have not already been integrated. About old F-16's MLU includes integration of AIM-120 along with many other systems and weapons.Basically old Blk-15 will have similar avionics capability(after MLU) as our new F-16's.Only difference will be in no. of hard points,engine and weapons load.

14 embargoed F-16 that PAF received were actually F-16 Block 15 OCU so I think they should already have the capability to fire AIM-120.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html

 

[rockstarIN]

First of all a request to all the the 14 embargoed F-16 that PAF received were actually F-16 Block 15 OCU so I think they should already have the capability to fire AIM-120.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html

I heard somewhere that BVR comes with Blk 52 only? You can do it with modifications i think

 

[Taha Samad]

I heard somewhere that BVR comes with Blk 52 only? You can do it with modifications i think

read the link in the prev post F-16 Block 15 OCU had AIM 120 capability.

 

[SBD-3]

I heard somewhere that BVR comes with Blk 52 only? You can do it with modifications i think

The APG-66 radar fitted to the F-16A/B was not originally intended to have the capabilities of handling BVR missiles such as the Sparrow or the AMRAAM. Indeed, the whole concept of the cheap, light-weight fighter excluded fitting of SARH or ARH missiles. However, the need for a BVR capability became apparent soon after the F-16A/B entered service. The long-term solution was to be the AMRAAM missile, which was originally scheduled to enter service in the mid-1980s, but was delayed by a protracted series of developmental difficulties. Possible interim solutions were considered, amongst others the British Aerospace Skyflash or the Raytheon AIM-7 Sparrow. The first tests of a Sparrow-armed F-16 were made by General Dynamics with inert rounds attached to the wingtip, to the underwing pylons, and even to a pylon being attached to the mainwheel door. The undercarriage door location was used for some test firings with the Sparrow in November of 1977, and a test launch with a BAE Skyflash was made a year later. Ultimately, F-16A/B aircraft were modified into the F-16A/B ADF aircraft, and were capable of firing the Sparrow.
When the MSIP Stage II was approved for the F-16, AMRAAM was far from ready. However, the associated ECP350 (Engineering Change Proposal) included changes to the wiring of the wings and aircraft structure, so that the AIM-120 could be retrofitted easily later on. block 10 introduced the stronger wing structure necessary to carry the missile, the wiring and software came later. Some Block 10 and 15's got retrofitted with the software/wiring, but others didn't. So basically all F-16s from Block 10 onwards are structurally AMRAAM-capable, although some A/B models lack both the wiring and the software, and although the C/D models have the wiring, some of them do not have the necessary software. The latter depends on whether the customer is subject to export restrictions or not.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_armament_article3.html

I wont like to use the word again

 

[sancho]

If the BVR news is true most probably Mirage III F-7PG would have been equipped to launch them.As their radars were being manufactured in Pakistan. But since no information is out there we can only speculate.But as of now PAF has AIM 120's and sooner or later SD-10's will be integrated if they have not already been integrated. About old F-16's MLU includes integration of AIM-120 along with many other systems and weapons.Basically old Blk-15 will have similar avionics capability(after MLU) as our new F-16's.Only difference will be in no. of hard points,engine and weapons load.

14 embargoed F-16 that PAF received were actually F-16 Block 15 OCU so I think they should already have the capability to fire AIM-120.

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html

PAFs Mirage 3 and F7s have no BVR capability, because it once need a radar and also the integration of a BVR missile into it and you can't simply integrate AMRAAM, or SD 10 without the neccesary source codes.
Hasnain0099 based it only an a picture of a mock up with SD 10 and on a wiki entry without any ref, or source, so that's not a reliable proof.
On the other hand there are Chinese sources that clearly says that PAFs:

F-7PG is fitted with an I-band Italian FIAR Grifo-7 pulse-Doppler fire-control radar (37km range), which was optimised to fire the U.S.-made AIM-9L all-aspect short-range AAM, making a lethal combination in air-to-air combat.

Jian-7 (J-7, F-7, Fishbed) Interceptor Fighter - SinoDefence.com

That once shows that SR missiles were integrated to Grifo radar not BVR and according wiki (if we stay with it):

A beyond-visual-range missile usually refers to an air-to-air missile that is capable of engaging at ranges beyond 20 nautical miles (37 km)

Beyond-visual-range missile - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Which means that the Grifo radar is hardly BVR capable and even if, PAF has no missile integrated to it with neccesary ranges. Which also proves the wiki entry for Mirage 3 Rose upgrade as wrong, because it claims BVR capability with the same Grifo radar, but Mirage 3s are only able to use AIM-9, Matra, or Magic missiles which are WVR missiles with less range, which btw the wiki entry of the Rose upgrade also said, that's why it's likely that the part of BVR capability was added later.

Also as you pointed out too, several senior Pakistani members already confirmed that H-4 is an A2G glide bomb/missile, not an A2A BVR missile:

http://www.defence.pk/forums/military-aviation/48729-pakistan-inducts-bvr-missile-h-4-a.html


That leaves PAFs fighters with SD 10 and AMRAAM for JFT and so far the F16 B52s only, because the older are not upgraded yet, just like Mirage 2000 aren't in IAF.
IAF also don't have Astra, AMRAAM, or METEOR yet, only from 2014 onwards. The only BVR missiles in Indian fighters at the moment are Derby, R27 and R77, available on around 300 x Su 30 MKIs, Mig 29 and 29Ks, as well as Mig 21 Bisions and Sea Harriers.

There should be a little doubt about the clear advantage of Indian forces in BVR at the moment, but PAF will be able to reduce it with the induction of F16 B52, JFT and the upgrade of F16 B15 in the mid term, not to mention the addition of AWACS. That's why JFT mainly will be a game changer, not because it is a very capable fighter (no offense!) but it is a good BVR platform in combination with AWACS and will come in high numbers. That's the same advantage Bisons offered to IAF guided by MKI, however, the most capable fighters are still F16 B52 and the MKI (Mig 29K for the IN).

The most capable BVR fighters in South Asia are MKI, F16 B52 (later MLU too) and Mig 29Ks, with long range radars, missiles and good EW suites. I also believe that the F16s will be pretty equal in detecting MKI, but only till the upgraded versions arrive around 2014, because they will feature longer range AESA radar and RCS reductions (no internal weapon bays, or such myths, but more RAM and composites).

 

[aanshu001]

good observation boss, other things to be noted hear that IAF had already induct these missile and had practiced in various in various war games at home and abroad and for PAF, I had never come to any news that they had practiced any BVR exercise.

 

[rockstarIN]

I wont like to use the word again

The Block 25 F-16C/D aircraft were originally all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan, but they have since been upgraded to the -220E standard.

Structure & Avionics
The implementation of the MSIP Stage II changes in the F-16 production line, resulted in the second generation of F-16 aircraft. Starting with Block 25, the F-16C and F-16D (as the one-seat and two-seat variants were designated) featured several improvements:

■Northrop Grumman ESSD (previously known as Westinghouse) AN/APG-68(V) radar, offering increased range, expanded operating modes, improved ECCM capability and sharper resolution. The AN/APG-68(V) is a considerable advancement over the APG-66 of the F-16A/B. The planar array in the nose provides numerous air-to-air modes, including range-while-search, uplook and velocity search, single target track, raid cluster resolution, and track-while-scan for up to 10 targets. Beyond-visible-range capability has been added in the form of a high-PRF track mode to provide continuous-wave (CW) illumination for guidance of the AIM-7 Sparrow semi-active radar homing missile

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article5.html

BVR capability added to F-16 from Blk 25 onwards, read the above link.

Rgds,

 

[nightcrawler]

@Sancho

The only BVR missiles in Indian fighters at the moment are Derby, R27 and R77, available on around 300 x Su 30 MKIs, Mig 29 and 29Ks, as well as Mig 21 Bisions and Sea Harriers

I am confused at these two points

1. The ranges of R27-77 extremely vary from 20---170km (online resources); simply because they have huge spectrum of variants; whch variants Indians are using??
2. Like to know if R27/77 are incorporated in Sea-Harriers; a picture will do the job??( as far as I know only Derby can be incorporated in Harriers)

 

[rockstarIN]

PAFs Mirage 3 and F7s have no BVR capability, because it once need a radar and also the integration of a BVR missile into it and you can't simply integrate AMRAAM, or SD 10 without the neccesary source codes.
That leaves PAFs fighters with SD 10 and AMRAAM for JFT and so far the F16 B52s only, because the older are not upgraded yet, just like Mirage 2000 aren't in IAF.

PAF can use SD-10 with JFT only. Itegrating AMRAAM into JFT and integrating SD-10 into F-16 requires US technical assistance and approval.

Rgds,

 

[notorious_eagle]

PAFs Mirage 3 and F7s have no BVR capability, because it once need a radar and also the integration of a BVR missile into it and you can't simply integrate AMRAAM, or SD 10 without the neccesary source codes.

We do have a BVRAAM, its called the "T Darter" and was acquired from Denel on full TOT contract. Over the years Pakistan has acquired several products from Denel. The BVRAAM is Fire and Forget, it was further improved by Pakistani/Chinese engineers and has a reported range of 120KM. Its seeker, maneuverability and agility were further improved. I know that for sure Mirage III's with their upgraded Grifo Radars have the capability to fire these weapons and have been tested several times. I am not sure about the PG's but i do know that during HM 2010 they took simulated shots against the opposing aircrafts. Sir Parvez Shamim and Usman Shabbir have confirmed the existence of the Darters in our inventory, PAF has named it it "Crescent Arrow". A lot of PAF's capabilities are kept under the radar, so here you learned something new today .

You guys are saying only your "6th Gen F-7" locked on the MKI.

Without BVR, proper radar how will that creapy machine lock on to it.

Just like how the Bisons locked on the F15's; so according to your logic a BVR capable radar would be needed to lock on the MKI , what sort of weird logic is that? I know the Indian ego was hurt when they found out their beloved MKI got locked on, but this is not going to change the facts. Maybe you are not aware of this fact but PAF has mastered its Anti BVR Tactics, and to set the record straight the MKI was locked on in WVR engagement over Kashmir. Over Lahore Sector, Mirage III's attacked a strike package of Mirage 2000's and successfully locked on them.

then saying Mirage is BVR capable and F-16, at the time(2008) there were no BVR in PAF, admit it.

Read my reply to Sancho, and whats with this obsession with BVR engagement. When your enemy is right next to you and trying to penetrate your airspace, the chances are that engagements are going to be in WVR mode.

All these MKI locked on and nearly shot down is just day dreams to up the confidence of PAF men, nothing else.

Sure , whatever makes you happy but PAF knows what the truth is because they have the HUD videos of the incident

This board is a wealth of information; but instead of going back and conducting your research, all you have done is post BS, so SHAME ON YOU.

 

[rockstarIN]

@Sancho



I am confused at these two points

1. The ranges of R27-77 extremely vary from 20---170km (online resources); simply because they have huge spectrum of variants; whch variants Indians are using??

1. 
   
   
   the Vympel R-77 has a stated range of 100 km against a head-on target at high altitude, but only 25 km in a stern chase. At low altitude it can fire at head-on targets at 20 km, from which we can guess range in a stern chase is 5 km
   
   Air-to-air missile non-comparison table
   
   GO thru the above link.
   
   
   
   [*]Like to know if R27/77 are incorporated in Sea-Harriers; a picture will do the job??( as far as I know only Derby can be incorporated in Harriers
   
   
   
   Updated Sea Harriers employ EL/M-2032 radar.
   
   The EL/M-2032 is an advanced pulse Doppler, multimode Fire Control Radar intended for multi-role fighter aircraft originated from the Lavi project. It is suitable for air-to-air and air-to-surface modes
   
   Sea harriers, Indian Mig-21 Bison & the first versions of LCA will be using the same radar. In Sea harriers, the BVR missiles is derby, whereas in Bison, it is R-77 & in case of LCA, probably it is Astra and/or Derby.
   
   In this case, Sea Harrier can be added with R-77 like Mig-21.
   
   Rgds,

 

[rockstarIN]

We do have a BVRAAM, its called the "T Darter" and was acquired from Denel on full TOT contract. Over the years Pakistan has acquired several products from Denel. The BVRAAM is Fire and Forget, it was further improved by Pakistani/Chinese engineers and has a reported range of 120KM. Its seeker, maneuverability and agility were further improved. I know that for sure Mirage III's with their upgraded Grifo Radars have the capability to fire these weapons and have been tested several times. I am not sure about the PG's but i do know that during HM 2010 they took simulated shots against the opposing aircrafts. Sir Parvez Shamim and Usman Shabbir have confirmed the existence of the Darters in our inventory, PAF has named it it "Crescent Arrow". A lot of PAF's capabilities are kept under the radar, so here you learned something new today .

Do you have any proof on this? may be it is kept under the radar as told by you. But which was the platform for using BVR in 2008? as infomed by Sancho, Grifo Radars have 37 Km range & F16s was blk 15s. You might have A-Darter which is infrared horming, not active radar.

Just like how the Bisons locked on the F15's; so according to your logic a BVR capable radar would be needed to lock on the MKI , what sort of weird logic is that? I know the Indian ego was hurt when they found out their beloved MKI got locked on, but this is not going to change the facts. Maybe you are not aware of this fact but PAF has mastered its Anti BVR Tactics, and to set the record straight the MKI was locked on in WVR engagement over Kashmir. Over Lahore Sector, Mirage III's attacked a strike package of Mirage 2000's and successfully locked on them.


Read by above reply, Migs are carrying R-77 with a radar able to track well from 250 km, Indian Sea harriers are using the same, but the missile is Derby.
Read my reply to Sancho, and whats with this obsession with BVR engagement. When your enemy is right next to you and trying to penetrate your airspace, the chances are that engagements are going to be in WVR mode.

Coz all experts say that future combat will be mostly BVR, for E.G MKI carry 6-8 BVR, you need to escape all of them to come close. Very less chance.Sure , whatever makes you happy but PAF knows what the truth is because they have the HUD videos of the incident

This board is a wealth of information; but instead of going back and conducting your research, all you have done is post BS, so SHAME ON YOU.

Read all the posts, its your guys pasting information without valid back up. like reverse engineering of source codes etc etc. When somebody ask for proof/source, you guys change gears and started trolling, not me.

 

[SBD-3]

The Block 25 F-16C/D aircraft were originally all powered by the Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-200 turbofan, but they have since been upgraded to the -220E standard.

Structure & Avionics
The implementation of the MSIP Stage II changes in the F-16 production line, resulted in the second generation of F-16 aircraft. Starting with Block 25, the F-16C and F-16D (as the one-seat and two-seat variants were designated) featured several improvements:

■Northrop Grumman ESSD (previously known as Westinghouse) AN/APG-68(V) radar, offering increased range, expanded operating modes, improved ECCM capability and sharper resolution. The AN/APG-68(V) is a considerable advancement over the APG-66 of the F-16A/B. The planar array in the nose provides numerous air-to-air modes, including range-while-search, uplook and velocity search, single target track, raid cluster resolution, and track-while-scan for up to 10 targets. Beyond-visible-range capability has been added in the form of a high-PRF track mode to provide continuous-wave (CW) illumination for guidance of the AIM-7 Sparrow semi-active radar homing missile

http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article5.html

BVR capability added to F-16 from Blk 25 onwards, read the above link.

Rgds,

was that a counter post???....or an attempt to restore pride...? dont make arguments unless you cant bear them
anyways i guess that too wont help you as you are constrainted by your own "technical facts"
well since you've worked so hard (I guess this would be out of those few posts before which you would have gone through reading though) but here goes

Block 15OCU
214 aircraft from Block 15Y onwards received upgraded systems starting late-1987. Designated Block 15OCU (Operational Capability Upgrade), these aircraft are powered by the more reliable F100-PW-220 turbofan. These aircraft also have structural strengthening and are provided with the enlarged HUD that was first introduced on the F-16C/D. Also incorporated are the capability to fire the Norwegian Penguin Mk.3 anti-shipping missile (built by Kongsberg, US designation AGM-119) and the AGM-65, provisions for the AIM-120 AMRAAM, radar altimeter, expanded computer capacity, data transfer unit, wide-angle HUD, AN/APX-101 IFF, Tracor AN/ALE-40 chaff/flare dispenser and provisions for the AN/ALQ-131 ECM pod. These modifications increased the max. TO weight to 37,500lbs (17,010kg). The first Block 15OCU was delivered in January 1988, and from 1988 onwards, all Block 15's were built to OCU specifications.
http://www.f-16.net/f-16_versions_article3.html

and here is the case study

Royal Thai Airforce
Inventory
rogram Model Block Qty. Serials Delivered
Peace Naresuan I F-16A Block 15OCU 8 10305/10312 1988
F-16B Block 15OCU 4 10301/10304 1988
Peace Naresuan II F-16A Block 15OCU 6 10313/10318 1990-1991
Peace Naresuan III F-16A Block 15OCU 12 40307/40318 1995-1996
F-16B Block 15OCU 6 40301/40306 1995
Peace Naresuan IV F-16A Block 15ADF 15 10202/10216 2002-2003
F-16B Block 15ADF 1 10201 2002
F-16A Block 10OCU 2 ? 2002
Singapore donation F-16A Block 15OCU 3 10323/10325 2005
F-16B Block 15OCU 4 10319/10322 2005
Armament

Little is known about the weapons inventory of Thai F-16s. Standard air-to-air armament is the AIM-9 Sidewinder. In 1995, the RTAF acquired a number of Python 3 missiles, followed by AIM-120 AMRAAM missiles in 2003. In the air-to-ground role standard equipment is made up of Mk. 82 and Mk. 84 bombs possibly supplemented with a number of AGM-65 missiles.

so do some more labour to find a counter argument to restore your "technical facts"

 

[rockstarIN]

was that a counter post???....or an attempt to restore pride...? dont make arguments unless you cant bear them
anyways i guess that too wont help you as you are constrainted by your own "technical facts"
well since you've worked so hard (I guess this would be out of those few posts before which you would have gone through reading though) but here goes

and here is the case study

so do some more labour to find a counter argument to restore your "technical facts"

See, whatever I'm saying here, I post a "link" not like your claims "suppose to be", "this guy confirmed" "under the wrap", "secret", "a replica picture".. etc.etc.

And regarding F-16 block details, its is not a counter claim or so. I paste the link which you only put first, and you HAVE NOT read the same, as I can understand,

And about lost pride, he he he, read most of the post and you will come to know that who has baised claims and are trolling. Do some research dude before just trying to defend yourself

It was a nice thread and you made this very dirty.