Behave or be like North Korea: former US diplomat Zalmay Khalilzad on Pakistan

[Suff Shikan]

Barking dog seldom bites ... Thats all I can say....

 

[pakistani342]

I think Zal is Zal -- he got appointed to his positions because the Bush administration didn't have any other neocons who spoke the language of the native peoples ( he has always been at the right time at the right place but you gotta give him credit that unlike Chalabi,this dude represented some of the US's most important overseas placements, i.e. AF, IRAQ and the UN

The other was Achmed Chalabi ;-) ... the less said the better ( OK he was one was a complete fraud)

Isolation is a very strong word -- and if one day Pakistan is isolated it will not be because of anything vis-a-vis Afghanistan -- that is something Afghans need to understand. ( True, but the AF episode is probably one of the many other reasons)

Sticks yes -- the last time Pakistan was closest to isolation was post 1989 -- and we all know what the result of that was = 120 + nuclear devices ... an officer core that does not understand the US ( Which means Isolution, typical case scenario, North Korea numerous nuclear devices but isolated, even by China as well )

Divorce is not on the cards - not because the US / Pak love each other - it's because the US cannot afford to have a pivot of the Muslim world on a hostile footing. Again sticks yes - hostile, not so much

As a US citizen all my interests are in Pakistan -- how many in Afghanistan? by comparison almost zero.

If you want to understand the issue of terrorism (if you honestly believe that to be a core issue) the list is long (ahead of Pakistan):
1. Iran -- for crying out loud Iran supports Hamas and Hizbollah who target Israel -- the Taliban by comparison are little girls -- notice how the US has been treating Iran of late? ( I liked the little girl simile )
2. Saudi Arabia -- notice the multi-billion dialer arms packages? because ... you guessed it ..
3. Qatar -- ISIS
4. the other assorted Gulf states where the money for the Taliban comes from. ( All of the points 2,3,4 carry weight )

Reminder:
1. there is a 500,000 Pakistani diaspora in the US that is active -- (the Afghan diaspora is similarly large but as I've pointed out before is rather stunted) ( Active diaspora yes, but has that translated into anything tangible for Pakistan in terms of concessions ? The F 16, NSG saga are good examples of NO), Pakistan recently opted again to require services of a lobby firm.

2. there is a huge active diaspora in the UK -- heck the mayor of London is a Pakistani Brit which is an executive position not an affirmative action position like minister of equality or diversity or something like that
3. Diplomacy wise Afghanistan does not have a representative to UNESCO I think -- and you know my thoughts on Ambassador Mohib ... Pakistan has a huge diplomatic corps (compared to its size)
4. Afghanistan has a lot of good will in the US because of the 1980s and because a lot of people served there -- but good will is for the birds and bees -- in terms of realism a lot of people secretly see it a little more than Pakistan's 5th province There is a strong bi-partisan support from Afghanistan and of course the military, and terming AF as a 5th province is just an exaggeration, otherwise why invest billions, commit billions more and all other sacrifices in blood, if they are to see it as PAK province.

@pakistani342 tried to quickly respond to some of your points, more will follow when I get some time.

/Peace

My brother -- I do feel for you -- the world is a very cruel place -- and its sad that the Afghan elite have no idea how it works.

The GHQ and Pakistani elite have by getting their fingers burnet several times found out more or less how the world is.

the billions of dollars keep the ANA barely afloat - the US wants a dignified exit -- I would read what that means by studying Vietnam.

Afghanistan as Pakistan's 5th province: the euphemism is: let's out source Afghanistan to Pakistan.

The Afghans, Afghanistan, mean nothing to the US public or politicians at large. you are a country of 30 million that is poor, backward, landlocked -- what do you have in common with US values, culture or standing. :-( the sooner Afghans realize that the sooner they might begin to solve their problems.

BTW the same calculus applies to Pakistan -- the only difference is Pakistan uses asymmetric leverage -- and for now have been effective.

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On the funny idea of isolating Pakistan:

The last time Sticks were used (not isolation)

1. Pakistan developed a nuclear device -- and this is not the same as N Korea developing a nuclear device -- N Korea is not Pakistan. Pakistan is more akin to Turkey due to its tentacles.
2. The Pakistani officer core had no contact with the American officer corps -- developed a warped sense of reality -- do you think the US wants to repeat that?

There is NO US commentator who advocates Pakistani isolation -- I wonder if you are familiar with the details of the US F-16 -- most of it was political theater:
1. Yes much anger at Pakistan
2. You know that the Obama administration asked Pakistan to pay for the planes and they would direct funds from elsewhere (money is fungible) -- why Pakistan choose to be intransigent is a mystery -- perhaps to make a stupid point
3. You do know that the guy who lead the campaign to stop the funds was also the guy who was principal in making sure the f-16s got approved for Pak (not the funding but the sale)
4. You do know of the little fact of Modi's visit co-enciding -- [political theater]
5. 8 f-16s are not going to change any strategic calculus
6. The losses for the US:
a. It puts pressure on Lockheed to shut the assembly line down (you know the DOD contracts lobby for the sale of these things)
b. The senator in the state will have to account of the lost jobs
c. If the assembly line does close down we can't gift similar jets to other friendly airfares
d. But most importantly it decreases the threshold of India/Pak going nuclear -- which is what we (US) cares for
e. Basically the adults in Pakistan were missing and yes the adults in the US are also under siege these days
f. You do know I personally am opposed to Aid to Pakistan, Afghanistan and these f-16 sales -- because it stops Pakistan from making the hard decisions it need to like for having it's elites to pay taxes -- and the same for goes for Afghanistan. Plus, these funds can go to disadvantages American kids as say scholarships to keep them from competitive

On Zal ... ah Zal Zal Zal (aka Zalmay who lets loose that he is actually a Pashtun from time to time) the less said the better (A female Afghan friend of a friend -- both Georgetown SFS grads, was his personal assistant, may still be) -- the less said about Zal the better ;-) [Zal + Son (Alexander Berns -- lol -- notice the missing Khalilzad -- don't know much about his other son Maximillian (?)) + Wife actually -- lol]

3. So the US is going to isolate Pakistan so it can make it behave to help Afghanistan -- which is in principal destroying itself ;-) -- and even if it wasn't -- Afghanistan is inconsequential to the world -- that is how realism works ;-) -- read Kissinger's books if you want to know what the euphemisms actually hide.

I know you are passionate and idealistic -- the world my brother is sadly, is not so much.

 

[Jungibaaz]

OP, if we're like North Korea, then what does that make you, who still have to send millions of their compatriots to NK and rely on it for its own economic survival?

I've actually got a soft spot now for refugees, despite the fact that Pak doesn't have the system to deal with them.

 

[Spectre]

My brother -- I do feel for you -- the world is a very cruel place -- and its sad that the Afghan elite have no idea how it works.

The GHQ and Pakistani elite have by getting their fingers burnet several times found out more or less how the world is.

the billions of dollars keep the ANA barely afloat - the US wants a dignified exit -- I would read what that means by studying Vietnam.

Afghanistan as Pakistan's 5th province: the euphemism is: let's out source Afghanistan to Pakistan.

The Afghans, Afghanistan, mean nothing to the US public or politicians at large. you are a country of 30 million that is poor, backward, landlocked -- what do you have in common with US values, culture or standing. :-( the sooner Afghans realize that the sooner they might begin to solve their problems.

BTW the same calculus applies to Pakistan -- the only difference is Pakistan uses asymmetric leverage -- and for now have been effective.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

On the funny idea of isolating Pakistan:

The last time Sticks were used (not isolation)

1. Pakistan developed a nuclear device -- and this is not the same as N Korea developing a nuclear device -- N Korea is not Pakistan. Pakistan is more akin to Turkey due to its tentacles.
2. The Pakistani officer core had no contact with the American officer corps -- developed a warped sense of reality -- do you think the US wants to repeat that?

There is NO US commentator who advocates Pakistani isolation -- I wonder if you are familiar with the details of the US F-16 -- most of it was political theater:
1. Yes much anger at Pakistan
2. You know that the Obama administration asked Pakistan to pay for the planes and they would direct funds from elsewhere (money is fungible) -- why Pakistan choose to be intransigent is a mystery -- perhaps to make a stupid point
3. You do know that the guy who lead the campaign to stop the funds was also the guy who was principal in making sure the f-16s got approved for Pak (not the funding but the sale)
4. You do know of the little fact of Modi's visit co-enciding -- [political theater]
5. 8 f-16s are not going to change any strategic calculus
6. The losses for the US:
a. It puts pressure on Lockheed to shut the assembly line down (you know the DOD contracts lobby for the sale of these things)
b. The senator in the state will have to account of the lost jobs
c. If the assembly line does close down we can gift these jets to other friendly airfares
d. But most importantly it decreases the threshold of India/Pak going nuclear -- which is what we (US) care for

On Zal ... ah Zal Zal Zal (aka Zalmay who lets loose that he is actually a Pashtun from time to time) the less said the better (A female Afghan friend of a friend -- both Georgetown SFS grads, was his personal assistant, may still be) -- the less said about Zal the better ;-) [Zal + Son (Alexander Berns -- lol -- notice the missing Khalilzad -- don't know much about his other son Maximillian (?)) + Wife actually -- lol]

3. So the US is going to isolate Pakistan so it can make it behave to help Afghanistan -- which is in principal destroying itself ;-) -- and even if it wasn't -- Afghanistan is inconsequential to the world -- that is how realism works ;-) -- read Kissinger's books if you want to know what the euphemisms actually hide.

I know you are passionate and idealistic -- the world my brother is sadly, is not so much.

The punchline is that - in your post filled with insults for Afghanistan and indirect compliments for Pakistan - if we look at the results - all the losses accrued are to Pakistan. Loosing 10s of thousands of men, economy a wreck, citizens murdered at will by US drones, sovereignty violated countless times and what does Pakistan has to show for the game it supposedly plays so well?

While US keeps Pakistan happy by giving it euphemisms of ally, important partner, vital to security interests etc - all that happens on ground is destruction of Pakistani assets be they direct or proxy and still Pakistan get's a rogue reputation and daily slander. At this stage one wonders if Pakistan has any "tentacles" or just "shackles"

While Afghanistan is no worse than it was when Taliban ruled. Infact for all it is worth they have a semblance of a army, govt and economy which they didnt before.

@A-Team

 

[pakistani342]

The punchline is that in your post filled with insults for Afghanistan and indirect compliments for Pakistan - is that if we look at the results - all the losses accrued are to Pakistan. Loosing 10s of thousands of men, economy a wreck, citizens murdered at will by US drones, sovereignty violated countless times and what does Pakistan has to show for the game it supposedly plays so well?

While US keeps Pakistan happy by giving it euphemisms of ally, important partner, vital to security interests etc - all that happens on ground is that Pakistanis die and still Pakistan get's a rogue reputation and daily slander. At this stage one wonders if Pakistan has any "tentacles" or just "shackles"

While Afghanistan is no worse than it was when Taliban ruled. Infact for all it is worth they have a semblance of a army, govt and economy which they didnt before.

My dear, which part of the above required your interjecting yourself in a conversation between brothers -- interlopers not welcome ;-)

 

[Spectre]

My dear, which part of the above required your interjecting yourself in a conversation between brothers -- interlopers not welcome ;-)

Brotherly conversations can be had via other more private platforms, this is an open forum where everyone reserves the right to comment and observe.

 

[pakistani342]

Brotherly conversations can be had via other more private platforms, this is an open forum where everyone reserves the right to comment and observe.

you are shameless -- lol

 

[Spectre]

you are shameless -- lol

I hope it makes you feel better and takes away some of the may frustrations evident in your posts.

 

[pakistani342]

I hope it makes you feel better and takes away some of the may frustrations evident in your posts.

totally totally -- lol -- all frustrations -- lol

better still you win -- happy -- now let me go talk to my brother -- do stay out -- lol

 

[Spectre]

totally totally -- lol -- all frustrations -- lol

better still you win -- happy -- now let me go talk to my brother -- do stay out -- lol

No one is stopping you from talking to your "brother". You can ignore me and direct your posts to him but instead...

 

[pakistani342]

Some pretty strong words from Fmr US ambassador Zalmay Khalilzad.

@pakistani342 : What's your thoughts on the mood in the Capitol Hill? Zal seems to indicate that US Gov is probably resorting to more sticks than carrots this time.

____________________________________


http://www.firstpost.com/world/paki...may-khalilzad-former-us-diplomat-2867468.html



Today, I see in US a greater desire to isolate Pakistan. I think there is a need for a North Korea-type of isolation. We have asked China if they want Pakistan to be North Korea. We are pressing for delay in the IMF package to Pakistan. There has to be a complete suspension of all assistance to Pakistan and to make its military generals and government understand the consequences of continued support for extremist and terrorist groups.



The drone attack was a shot across the bow for Pakistan’s generals. It had a clear message. If we can do that with Mullah Mansour (the successor of Mullah Omar was killed in a US drone attack in Pakistan’s Baluchistan province in May), we can surely tackle the other Taliban leaders.


Stopping the sale of the F-16 fighter jets was another message to them. Reduction in assistance to Pakistan is another message.

one other point -- there is a phrase in Pakistan -- coined by Zulfikar Ali Bhutto -- it is called eating grass -- he said Pakistan would eat grass but build the Atom bomb.

My personal conjecture is that "desired Afghan end state" may have have become the second "eating grass" undertaking by the Pakistani deep state.

The results of the first one are now history and part of national tradition -- the second one was achieved not too long ago before the tragic events of 9/11 -- but the question is what future will be written down in the next chapter of this family feud.

Family feuds are bitter and visceral -- but sadly humanity does not seem to have evolved past them.

Another area which I'm interested in studying, and you may want to study (which I think holds parallels) -- in the process of ordering the books to read over summer -- is the establishment of the modern German state.

What lead to the Blood and Iron speech by Bismarck and what unfolded after it.

No one is stopping you from talking to your "brother". You can ignore me and direct your posts to him but instead...

yeah ... just don't butt in ... it's really rude ... don't you have anything better to do?

 

[khanz]

lol funny to see these people barking again in 2008 they said they would be isolate pakistan then again in 2011 after OBL raid they thought pakistan would be punished and nothing happened.
Let's bookmark this thread and come back 5 years later if you guys are still posting here and laugh again. Khalilzad is such a dumb shit someone should remind him there's 2+ million afghan refugees in pakistan and many of the afghans who are living in the west go abroad on pakistani passports so in isolating pakistan he would also be hurting his own people .
Pakistan is the lifeline for afghanistan, only nuclear power of muslim world, our population is now over 200 million strong and there is around 9-10 million overseas pakistanis with a huge chunk of them being in the U.S and ties with russia are also growing slowly we are just too big to be isolated. Khalilzad can go f uck himself. The UK probably has a better chance of being isolated at this point with the brexit issue

 

[pakistani342]

lol funny to see these people barking again in 2008 they said they would be isolate pakistan then again in 2011 after OBL raid they thought pakistan would be punished and nothing happened.
Let's bookmark this thread and come back 5 years later if you guys are still posting here and laugh again. Khalilzad is such a dumb shit someone should remind him there's 2+ million afghan refugees in pakistan and many of the afghans who are living in the west go abroad on pakistani passports so in isolating pakistan he would also be hurting his own people .
Pakistan is the lifeline for afghanistan, only nuclear power of muslim world, our population is now over 200 million strong and there is around 9-10 million overseas pakistanis with a huge chunk of them being in the U.S and ties with russia are also growing slowly we are just too big to be isolated. Khalilzad can go f uck himself. The UK probably has a better chance of being isolated at this point with the brexit issue.

this is a very good point -- @A-Team -- if the OBL raid didn't isolate Pakistan -- some petty matter of Afghanistan will?

 

[kasper95]

I know one thing Kashmir and strategic depth has hurt ,is hurting, and will be hurting Pakistan .just check what has Pakistan become in last 20-25 years.

this is a very good point -- @A-Team -- if the OBL raid didn't isolate Pakistan -- the matter of Afghanistan will ?

what is isolation .
no one standing with you when you need help is isolation.
you may be proud about OBL incident ,you have no idea how much it has hurt Pakistan .

 

[pakistani342]

I know one thing Kashmir and strategic depth has hurt ,is hurting, and will be hurting Pakistan .just check what has Pakistan become in last 20-25 years.


what is isolation .
no one standing with you when you need help is isolation.
you may be proud about OBL incident ,you have no idea how much it has hurt Pakistan .

oh bhai -- Kyun tang kar rahay ho -- jao aur chappan inch ki chatti waly ki sava karo