BD navy submarines are at Chittagong port

[Arthur]

Doubt it (its a continous process), being one of the worlds largest deltas its constantly changing (sedimentary shifts) out to 200km from the shore. It is also very shallow 5m-20m in regions. Shallow banks make navigation difficult for large draught vessels and subs.....Unless you have really upto date hydro data (that will need updateing regularly).

No no, I meant BD did surveyed & mapped the Bay during the our case in ITCLOS. As BD had to submit hydrographic data to support their claim. BN did the survey & obviously they keep updating them. As BN is in the process to induct more survey vessels in it's fleet, we can expect they will keep up the survey of the sea bed.

And a little tid bit is BN & RN has agreement, that RN will endorse BN 's survey data & maps of the sea area.

 

[damiendehorn]

No no, I meant BD did surveyed & mapped the Bay during the our case in ITCLOS. As BD had to submit hydrographic data to support their claim. BN did the survey & obviously they keep updating them. As BN is in the process to induct more survey vessels in it's fleet, we can expect they will keep up the survey of the sea bed.

And a little tid bit is BN & RN has agreement, that RN will endorse BN 's survey data & maps of the sea area.

The ITCLOS survey data and the data needed for sub operation area very different. This is the reason why the BN is building hydrographic survey vessels, and also the reason why we didn't order new subs straight away....The Bay of Bengal is not very condusive for sub operations (I suspect you will see one of these subs to run aground on one of the banks soon) and the BN will need to build very detailed sub-surface data before they splash out on new subs.

 

[Arthur]

The ITCLOS survey data and the data needed for sub operation area very different. This is the reason why the BN is building hydrographic survey vessels, and also the reason why we didn't order new subs straight away....The Bay of Bengal is not very condusive for sub operations (I suspect you will see one of these subs to run aground on one of the banks soon) and the BN will need to build very detailed sub-surface data before they splash out on new subs.

But it's possible to produce different grade of data from the original survey, isn't it?

Like surely if BN lead the survey they will collect military grade hydrographic data for own use, but they can always customize the data for a civilian use like in a court.

It's like Google maps, you can have professional grade satellite imagery & there is a downgraded version for general consumption.

And if no data is available, then how BN will operate the two ming class, surely they will need a military grade data to operate in the bay?

And second of all why will they ride the same wheel twice? I mean it takes both time & money to survey. So why BN would do that, I mean spend valuable time & budget on doing the same thing twice!

So there is enough logic to believe that BN has the necessary hydographic data to operte in the bay, which they will of course keep improving & updating.

 

[Bilal9]

The ITCLOS survey data and the data needed for sub operation area very different. This is the reason why the BN is building hydrographic survey vessels, and also the reason why we didn't order new subs straight away....The Bay of Bengal is not very condusive for sub operations (I suspect you will see one of these subs to run aground on one of the banks soon) and the BN will need to build very detailed sub-surface data before they splash out on new subs.

This is the reason I was suggesting the use of German (HDW built) U209/210/212/214 series or Korean-German subs (Daewoo/Hyundai Chang Bogo class). These subs are purpose built to patrol shallow seas (10 to 30 meters depth) around the Kadetrinne channel seabed in the Baltic sea, which is one of the heaviest traveled route in between Russian North Sea areas and Sweden/Denmark. Very difficult to navigate without pilot vessels.

The Swedish Gotland class also has to pass this shallow sea-patrol requirement, as built by SAAB Kockums yard in Sweden. This is from Wiki:

"Kockums touts extreme maneuverability for this class due to the hull design and a well-placed X rudder. The X rudder provides four control surfaces, along with two mounted on the sail, which enables sharp turns and the ability to operate very close to the seabed. Ship automation and computerized steering allow a single operator to steer the submarine in depth and course, which also results in a smaller crew complement, leading to good accommodation standards and low operating costs.

The class has many features that enhance stealth, helping it to remain undetected. All shipboard machinery is isolated and mounted on rubber dampeners to reduce vibrations and noises; a hydrodynamic hull design reduces noise, infrared signature, and active sonar response, counteracting its magnetic signature with 27 independent electromagnets, and short circuiting extremely low frequency (ELF) electrical fields; various hull coatings reduce active sonar response, and coating the mast with radar-absorbent material. Combined with the near-silent operation of the Stirling generator and slow-turning propeller to prevent cavitation, the boats are very difficult to detect under water, especially in their normal area of operations, the Baltic Sea.

In 2004, the Swedish government received a request from the United States of America to lease HSwMS Gotland – Swedish-flagged, commanded and manned, for a duration of one year for use in antisubmarine warfare exercises. The Swedish government granted this request in October 2004, with both navies signing a memorandum of understanding on 21 March 2005.[5][6] The lease was extended for another 12 months in 2006.[7][8][9] In July 2007, HSwMS Gotland departed San Diego for Sweden.[10]

HSwMS Gotland managed to snap several pictures of the USS Ronald Reagan during a wargaming exercise in the Pacific Ocean, effectively "sinking" the aircraft carrier.[11] The exercise was conducted to evaluate the effectiveness of the US fleet against diesel-electric submarines, which some have noted as severely lacking."

As a result of these 'bogey exercises', the US Navy took up a plan to induct new quieter SSK diesel attack subs customized for littoral warfare. The Gotland class had defeated several larger US Navy SSN's and this was a wake up call.

The Korean built U209 versions are known as the Chang Bogo class (CBG class). The Indonesian Navy bought these because Indonesia is dotted with shallow littoral sea shelves around their innumerable spread out islands and peninsulas.

The Singapore Navy also bought Gotland and modified Gotland class subs exactly for this same reason. The Pulau islands around Singapore (between Singapore, Malaysia and Indonesia) have shallow littoral seas as well and they have to patrol those marine areas.

Chang Bogo and Gotland classes cost about 350 million, not the 500 million that improved Kilo class (Amur, Lada classes etc.) costs.

More discussion on coastal class SSK's here...

https://www.sinodefenceforum.com/plan-yuan-class-aip-kilo-submarine-thread.t6882/page-5

 

[rome333]

There are a lot of talks and concerns on other forums about the suitability of Thailand's S26T as a shallow water SSK. Given S26T is a 2000 ton sub. Hope BD navy willl throughly assess the Mings suitability in BOB before rewarding contracts for more subs.

 

[Arthur]

@Bilal9 @damiendehorn

The upside of the Ming subs is that PLAN extensively used these subs in Bohai & Yellow seas. The depth of Bohai Sea varies from 20m mean depth to 70m in the Bohai striat. The average depth of Yellow sea is somewhat 40m.
PLAN has good experience in shallow water with 35G. It would be beneficial for BN, if they works closely with PLAN on the issue. Considering the merit of Goatland Class & Korean German types, buying & cooperation on sub technology will benefit BN in the long run.

And another not much reported part of the ming deal was that PLAN advisors will be in BD to work & help BN to further enhance their abilities in submarine operations.

So Ming class so far was a good deal for BN. In one stone they get -

1. Operational submarines.
2. Infrastructure for submarine support operations. (Repair, maintainance & machinery, training facilities)
2. Experienced advisory in enhanced training & capability building.

So far so good.

 

[Zarvan]

Congratulations....but
Since, Bangladesh have no enemy, then why waste money on these toys? just to appease generals i guess?

This is the world my friend. As for enemies Bangladesh have serious issues with Myanmar as well as India also has killed thousands of Indians on border in last few decades. Secondly any country not building strong Armed Forces or not having strong Armed Forces thinking it doesn't has any enemy is the biggest fool on earth.

As for topic I hope Bangladesh keep building up its forces and these submarines are used for next 5 years to train its crew on operating submarines and after 3 of these submarines in Bangladesh Navy. Bangladesh orders more and new submarines. Also needs to add Anti Submarine capabilities in its recently bought corvettes from China.

 

[bluesky]

i was talking about in the long run,not short term

Is it a hundred year term or a two hundred year term? When milk is cheap and easy available, then why to buy a cow that may not give milk ultimately?

Doubt it (its a contineous process), being one of the worlds largest deltas its constantly changing (sedimentary shifts) out to 200 km from the shore. It is also very shallow 5m-20m in regions. Shallow banks make navigation difficult for large draught vessels and subs.....Unless you have really updated hydro data (that will need updating regularly).

I can see 5 to 10 m depth even near Kutubdia and Moheshkhali. I wonder how a submarine base can be built in that sea area without first making the seabeds nearby deeper by dredging and surrounding the area with the mass concrete sea walls. A true submarine base requires a draught (is it 30 m or more?) that allows a submarine to enter it when still submerged without being seen by the enemy naval intelligence. It emerges above the surface only after it has entered the base, and the water gate has been closed.

I am interested to know about the Chinese use of their know how and expertise to build such an upgraded submarine base in Kutubdia.

 

[帅的一匹]

Is it a hundred year term or a two hundred year term? When milk is cheap and easy available, then why to buy a cow that may not give milk ultimately?


I can see 5 to 10 m depth even near Kutubdia and Moheshkhali. I wonder how a submarine base can be built in that sea area without first making the seabeds nearby deeper by dredging and surrounding the area with the mass concrete sea walls. A true submarine base requires a draught (is it 30 m or more?) that allows a submarine to enter it when still submerged without being seen by the enemy naval intelligence. It emerges above the surface only after it has entered the base, and the water gate has been closed.

I am interested to know about the Chinese use of their know how and expertise to build such an upgraded submarine base in Kutubdia.

Don't worry, China will do the magic. As you know, we are the king of construction.

Padma bridge contracted to China is gonna be in operation at year 2018.

 

[bluesky]

Don't worry, China will do the magic. As you know, we are the king of construction.

Padma bridge contracted to China is gonna be in operation at year 2018.

A submarine base is not exactly as simple it may seem to be, however, the Chinese companies will probably start with the contour survey works of the seabed near Kutubdia followed by design and construction. My best wishes for them.

 

[Bilal9]

@Bilal9 @damiendehorn

The upside of the Ming subs is that PLAN extensively used these subs in Bohai & Yellow seas. The depth of Bohai Sea varies from 20m mean depth to 70m in the Bohai striat. The average depth of Yellow sea is somewhat 40m.
PLAN has good experience in shallow water with 35G. It would be beneficial for BN, if they works closely with PLAN on the issue. Considering the merit of Goatland Class & Korean German types, buying & cooperation on sub technology will benefit BN in the long run.

And another not much reported part of the ming deal was that PLAN advisors will be in BD to work & help BN to further enhance their abilities in submarine operations.

So Ming class so far was a good deal for BN. In one stone they get -

1. Operational submarines.
2. Infrastructure for submarine support operations. (Repair, maintainance & machinery, training facilities)
2. Experienced advisory in enhanced training & capability building.

So far so good.

I wasn't aware of the shallow sea operation aspect for the Mings. Thanks for updating us. PLAN help will be valuable in our undersea naval operations.

 

[Shorisrip]

Our recent naming system for our ships/subs have been outrageously elegant. It's good to see the military finally embracing the ethnic heritage instead of naming them over irrelevant personalities in relation to the nation, like 'Abu Bakr' for e.g. Jamatis may be upset over my opinion, but its a fact that we're not Arabs. Bangladesh is a majority Muslim nation, but it doesn't mean we have to embrace foreign personalities that probably have never even heard of us.

 

[mb444]

Our recent naming system for our ships/subs have been outrageously elegant. It's good to see the military finally embracing the ethnic heritage instead of naming them over irrelevant personalities in relation to the nation, like 'Abu Bakr' for e.g. Jamatis may be upset over my opinion, but its a fact that we're not Arabs. Bangladesh is a majority Muslim nation, but it doesn't mean we have to embrace foreign personalities that probably have never even heard of us.

These personalities I guarantee would not have heard of us as they would have died before BD came to be.

Naming ships on Muslim personalities strengthens the Muslim identity of the nation and is inspirational.

What on earth is an ethnic heritage? If you are defining it as against Muslim history of the land then you are claiming Islam is somehow alien to Bangladesh.


It is not. Bangladesh exists because its people are Muslim. Islam is its raison detre and primary identity.

The recent naming of ships have been idiotic. I off course do not particularly care what a ship is called but when trolls try to distinguish Islamic identity of Bangladesh as somehow distinct from ethnic identity whatever the latter may be one can not allow it to pass.

 

[Shorisrip]

These personalities I guarantee would not have heard of us as they would have died before BD came to be.

Naming ships on Muslim personalities strengthens the Muslim identity of the nation and is inspirational.

What on earth is an ethnic heritage? If you are defining it as against Muslim history of the land then you are claiming Islam is somehow alien to Bangladesh.


It is not. Bangladesh exists because its people are Muslim. Islam is its raison detre and primary identity.

The recent naming of ships have been idiotic. I off course do not particularly care what a ship is called but when trolls try to distinguish Islamic identity of Bangladesh as somehow distinct from ethnic identity whatever the latter may be one can not allow it to pass.

Not really, would Arabs or any other Muslim nation name their ships on Bangladeshi Muslim personalities? I don't think so.

Islam, like all religions should be a personal belief. Believe me, I'm a proud Muslim, but at the same time, I'm a proud Bengali.

Bangladesh is not based on the Muslim identity, but rather the Bengali identity, a nation that happens to be Muslim. If you're talking about Muslim identity, then you're thinking about the erstwhile East Bengal province or East Pakistan, not Bangladesh.

It's noble to name our ships on Bangladeshis/Bengalis, with whatever religion as long as they were commendable personalities related to military or national effort, but I don't see how naming our ships on foreigners is an inspirational thing.

 

[rome333]

These personalities I guarantee would not have heard of us as they would have died before BD came to be.

Naming ships on Muslim personalities strengthens the Muslim identity of the nation and is inspirational.

What on earth is an ethnic heritage? If you are defining it as against Muslim history of the land then you are claiming Islam is somehow alien to Bangladesh.


It is not. Bangladesh exists because its people are Muslim. Islam is its raison detre and primary identity.

The recent naming of ships have been idiotic. I off course do not particularly care what a ship is called but when trolls try to distinguish Islamic identity of Bangladesh as somehow distinct from ethnic identity whatever the latter may be one can not allow it to pass.

Are you nuts? We are Bangladeshi first and foremost. Islam is Only the religious system majority of us believe in.
Bengali is the Prime inherited imbedded value we have. Dont mix religious and cultural values, Dude.