Battle Of Tanks: As Pakistan Inducts Chinese VT-4 Tanks, India Eyes Upgraded T-90, Next-Gen Battle Tanks

[SQ8]

I heard that deal with Russia is off, and we will be evaluating Chinese pantsir equivalents? Are they atleast as capable as Russian ones ? @PanzerKiel
Just like other weapons, do we have similar equivalents of CBUs from other countries or any resources and interest to develop in house ?

Other more informed members could comment as I have no inside links on any developments as such

PNS Zulfiqar, Yarmook, PNS Nasr, Mi17, MI26, VT4, AK, AZ, F16's of 5, 9 and 11 Sqns.... To name a few.... Direct firing weapons is another story....

Sir ab yeh to ziada ho jaye ga - kehne ko tu ham ne bhi type-21 Babur,Alamgir,Nasr,subtics simulator, eff sola, Jeff simulator,E-7/8 aur deegar safari suit aur shirt/pant se bharay howay idaron ke dono tafreehan aur kaam ke waastay chakar lagaien howay hain.

 

[SQ8]

IMO the JF-17 Block-I could be a great solution, especially if the PAF refits it with the KLJ-7A AESA radar and a good ECM pod. Unfortunately, from what I understand, there's little to zero capacity in place to enable land/air integration between the PAF and PA. Otherwise, I think the Block-I is a great potential CAS asset if we upgrade the radar add the GB6 JSOW-type and YJ-9E AGM to its arsenal (plus its BVR for addressing the Jaguar threat).

In what sense? While I was never fond of the R&S solution used by JF and Mirages - both it and the have quicks on vipers work really well with the PRC-9661 series.

Reliance on ground based radars in the age of IR based SOWs is asking for defeat. I asked @PanzerKiel if he wants me to open a thread on effective air defence for armored columns... no response. I hope that's because we have a very well thought out air defence plan already.

Agreed and including other aspects. There have also been claims on Chinese forums on integration of top armor to counter skeet weapons(which certainly adds weight at the least).

Army AD is one area where my 100% certainty of what was being done stops at 2012.The C4I aspect of it is top notch, just the assets it controls is what I am uncertain and not confident of.

 

[CriticalThought]

In what sense? While I was never fond of the R&S solution used by JF and Mirages - both it and the have quicks on vipers work really well with the PRC-9661 series.

Agreed and including other aspects. There have also been claims on Chinese forums on integration of top armor to counter skeet weapons(which certainly adds weight at the least).

Army AD is one area where my 100% certainty of what was being done stops at 2012.The C4I aspect of it is top notch, just the assets it controls is what I am uncertain and not confident of.

The modern battlefield has evolved such that enemy will be employing space and air based assets to perform surveillance across the spectrum: IR, Visual, and even Ultraviolet. And based on this information, he has the choice of utilizing a number of standoff weapons including kamikaze drones. When I analyze the threat from India, I try to imagine what they can achieve when working in very close coordination with Israel, France, Australia, and the US. This is what we need to prepare for.

America has repeatedly lost against distributed, low tech actors and it has repeatedly shown itself highly capable of destroying medium tech, organized governments. After retreating from Afghanistan, the two medium tech, organized countries in the neighborhood are Pakistan and Iran. Looks like they have ships off shore to support their retreat. What happens when D-DAY arrives and the retreat is complete? I would be asking the question: do they have any submarines lurking around in the region? Pakistan is going through tough times, and it is amazing how clueless our nation really is.

 

[Raja Porus]

PNS Zulfiqar, Yarmook, PNS Nasr, Mi17, MI26, VT4, AK, AZ, F16's of 5, 9 and 11 Sqns.... To name a few.... Direct firing weapons is another story....

Dhai tonne?

The C4I aspect of it is top notch, just the assets it controls is what I am uncertain and not confident of

Beautifully summed up.

 

[Tornado23]

PNS Zulfiqar, Yarmook, PNS Nasr, Mi17, MI26, VT4, AK, AZ, F16's of 5, 9 and 11 Sqns.... To name a few.... Direct firing weapons is another story....

Lucky....

 

[Raja Porus]

My bet is that PA isn't investing much in the AD because it wants to create a situation where they won't have to use it i.e suppressing enemy air bases;

I wonder why we are not looking into neither HQ-17 nor any CBU-105 type munition.

Due to these reasons as well as the numerical superiority of IAF, PAF will be facing serious strain in a battle of attrition. Thus we HAVE to suppress the enemy bases within 150-200km of the border at all costs. If we are able to do that we can move our armoured formations with relative ease just like the Israelis did in 67. We have to do the pre-emptive on IAF bases other wise their numbers along with decent quality will be difficult to handle and as you have pointed out our Short ranged SAMs will be useless. The bases within this range can be suppressed by A100s or Fatah which can be equipped with cluster munitions as well as the GBU-6A having a range of 120+ km, if not by PAF itself due to strong enemy AD concentration. However even that(S400 etc) can be neutralised because I bet our intel knows the locations of their AD assets which canbe then engaged by various munitions. Indians knew this aim of PA and hence one of the reasons IAF opted SU-30s( and later its integration Brahmos) was its ability to operate from air bases deeper in India,out of reach of PAF... If we are able to do this we can pretty much stop worrying about the CBU-105 problem as well. After suppressing these bases we can monitor those bases far away with ground(tps, jy27) as well as airbased radars (this point also justifies why we have more AEWACS then our commonly thought of requirements) so any package taking off from deeper enemy territory can be intercepted by PAF before reaching our armoured spearheads. I believe the current procurement of J10C (if), is not as a bomb truck or a replacement for mirages as is commonly believed, but because PAF lacks a strong capability to perform long range interception (and interdiction), deep strike missions. In short, preventing IAF from using its numbers is the key to Pakistani success both on land as well as the air.

Tbh I'm enjoying this discussion because it involves operational level discussion keeping in view the tactical level complications.

 

[SQ8]

The modern battlefield has evolved such that enemy will be employing space and air based assets to perform surveillance across the spectrum: IR, Visual, and even Ultraviolet. And based on this information, he has the choice of utilizing a number of standoff weapons including kamikaze drones. When I analyze the threat from India, I try to imagine what they can achieve when working in very close coordination with Israel, France, Australia, and the US. This is what we need to prepare for.

America has repeatedly lost against distributed, low tech actors and it has repeatedly shown itself highly capable of destroying medium tech, organized governments. After retreating from Afghanistan, the two medium tech, organized countries in the neighborhood are Pakistan and Iran. Looks like they have ships off shore to support their retreat. What happens when D-DAY arrives and the retreat is complete? I would be asking the question: do they have any submarines lurking around in the region? Pakistan is going through tough times, and it is amazing how clueless our nation really is.

Without funding, any and all speculation from folks here is pretty much that. Why I state funding as important is because even asymmetric solutions arent free - those Azeri Harop drones that blew out S-300s in Armenia are also operated by India - why wont they do the same to LY-80s or HQ-7s ? Does no Azeri care for Palestinians? They do, but they also see their own survival and dominance as more important - be able to help yourself before martyrdom on other causes.
There should be no principles when it comes to procurement of weapons and systems to literally survive in what you rightly pointed out is now a very hostile neighborhood.

America has much more powerful non-military means to make ANY Pakistani do their bidding.
but their military assets both work with and against Pakistan in a dance that goes into every possible shade between black and white.

The American gambit of assuaging India and propping it up as a counterweight to China will eventually find the Indian lacking to perform purely from a disconnect between different leadership levels. But that is an off topic and different discussion.

 

[VCheng]

The American gambit of assuaging India and propping it up as a counterweight to China will eventually find the Indian lacking to perform purely from a disconnect between different leadership levels. But that is an off topic and different discussion.

Another, thread, to be made to explore that interesting comment further, s'il vous plait?

 

[SQ8]

Another, thread, to be made to explore that interesting further, s'il vous plait?

Probably should - since I consider the drive to be a mix of think tank inputs, state dept & lobbying with the interspersed NRI all thrown into those agencies driving it. As I lament many a times, the majority Indian equivalent to your generation and prior who immigrated here was focused on education more than the average Pakistani who only got off gas stations and actually started voting in the last ten years at best.

 

[VCheng]

Probably should - since I consider the drive to be a mix of think tank inputs, state dept & lobbying with the interspersed NRI all thrown into those agencies driving it. As I lament many a times, the majority Indian equivalent to your generation and prior who immigrated here was focused on education more than the average Pakistani who only got off gas stations and actually started voting in the last ten years at best.

I look forward to that thread, and would love to see the huge disappointment Modi has proven to be for himself and the entire country, after the initial publicity blitz petered out, included in that discussion, as a manifestation of the factors you mention.

 

[PakFactor]

Probably should - since I consider the drive to be a mix of think tank inputs, state dept & lobbying with the interspersed NRI all thrown into those agencies driving it. As I lament many a times, the majority Indian equivalent to your generation and prior who immigrated here was focused on education more than the average Pakistani who only got off gas stations and actually started voting in the last ten years at best.

That and the Indians have been able to intergrade far quicker than Pakistani's besides the education angle.

 

[iLION12345_1]

PNS Zulfiqar, Yarmook, PNS Nasr, Mi17, MI26, VT4, AK, AZ, F16's of 5, 9 and 11 Sqns.... To name a few.... Direct firing weapons is another story....

Shaheen 2 and 3s TEL, they told me not to touch anything, I wonder why

 

[Genghis khan1]

Regardless of the article’s inaccuracies - Pakistani armor will be degraded in a very dispassionate way long before it makes contact with IA unless concrete steps are made to ensure air cover beyond the restricted LOMAD sphere. Can just imagine VT-4s, AK & AZ’s getting their tops blown off

Russian MLRS can deploy similarly anti-tank sub-munitions to decimate tank battalions from a safe distance . I think Pakistan is using Chinese version of those MLRS.

 

[Genghis khan1]

As far as I know the sepecat jaguar is the only capable aircraft of delivering the cbu in the iaf unless I'm wrong. Anyone know the max range of the cbu? Also also the pak ad now has the ly80 medium range Sam system which has a 40km range. I really hope they upgrade all ly80 batteries to the ly80b standard with a 70km range.

The iaf jaguars have a seriously underpowered engine. Which means a lack of maneuverability whilst it's holding its payload if a ly80 Sam is fired at it. Otherwise a amraam/sd10a/pl15

Panstir and similar system prove to be useless in Syria and Azerbaijan conflicts. Without CAS, ground units are toast.

 

[iLION12345_1]

Panstir and similar system prove to be useless in Syria and Azerbaijan conflicts. Without CAS, ground units are toast.

Syria, Azerbaijan/Armenia are rather poor examples to compare to Pakistans scenario both in terms of training and supporting elements, people also use those as examples to say drones are the future when in reality drones are quite useless in any conventional war in which either side has a competent Air Force.