Battle Of Tanks: As Pakistan Inducts Chinese VT-4 Tanks, India Eyes Upgraded T-90, Next-Gen Battle Tanks

[serenity]

FD-2000 is long range surface to air missile and pantsir is short range. Totally different things. Pakistan long ago took delivery of FD-2000 already.

I don't think China has Panstir copy at all. At least the PLA does not use one and many some small private companies in China built a Pantsir like short range system. This is useless for PLA which has much better HQ-7A and already its better performing HQ-17A. The CIWS gun system is already used but not combined with modified man launched short range missiles. I don't think Pakistan would buy some Pantsir like system from China if it is just a small private company who offer a copy of Pantsir which PLA has no interest in.

 

[iLION12345_1]

FD-2000 is long range surface to air missile and pantsir is short range. Totally different things. Pakistan long ago took delivery of FD-2000 already.

I don't think China has Panstir copy at all. At least the PLA does not use one and many some small private companies in China built a Pantsir like short range system. This is useless for PLA which has much better HQ-7A and already its better performing HQ-17A. The CIWS gun system is already used but not combined with modified man launched short range missiles. I don't think Pakistan would buy some Pantsir like system from China if it is just a small private company who offer a copy of Pantsir which PLA has no interest in.

Pakistan does not have FD2000 in service yet as far as I’m aware, but they were definitely tested here and will eventually come, unless they have already and the military is keeping them secret.

Yes PLA has no directly comparable system to pantsir, but it has other systems can that fill the same role, some that can do it even better.
PAs short range AD needs are still there and they will eventually find a new system, i think it will likely be Chinese too but there is a chance for it to be Turkish or European.

The LR and SR SAM acquisitions are different and PA will eventually do both.

 

[serenity]

Pakistan does not have FD2000 in service yet as far as I’m aware, but they were definitely tested here and will eventually come, unless they have already and the military is keeping them secret.

Yes PLA has no directly comparable system to pantsir, but it has other systems can that fill the same role, some that can do it even better.
PAs short range AD needs are still there and they will eventually find a new system, i think it will likely be Chinese too but there is a chance for it to be Turkish or European.

The LR and SR SAM acquisitions are different and PA will eventually do both.

Okay I thought those tests of FD-2000 in Pakistan was already delivery. I guess they will not say if they have them. The satellite photo showing FD-2000 was in Pakistan so I assumed they use it for nuclear attack to protect some sites for second strike in response to India in case India starts a surprise strike.

Pantsir is wheel truck mounted I think HQ-7A and HQ-17A are both got better mobility. We all use new phased array radars and they are all integrated with rest of air defence now anyway. Pantsir would be quite pointless for PLA if it is less mobile and heavier but no improvement at all. Russians use Pantsir for low level threat but still think new Tor system is better for short range which is basically HQ-17 but HQ-17A redid whole electronics and integration. New radars computers and everything even missiles have changed a bit like seekers, fins, and fuel type to improve energy and range.

So I doubt a small private company if they try and copy pantsir just for selling to other countries will be a very successful one. They will not have depth of knowledge and resources that government developers have. Definitely much less funding and will require investors. In the end, much better missile for purchase is available as HQ-7A or HQ-17A if something for short range is required. At least these can keep up with IFV and tanks on battlefield which the Pantsir cannot. All can perform air defence on the move as well. Anyway all these things are a problem of money.

 

[redtom]

Okay I thought those tests of FD-2000 in Pakistan was already delivery. I guess they will not say if they have them. The satellite photo showing FD-2000 was in Pakistan so I assumed they use it for nuclear attack to protect some sites for second strike in response to India in case India starts a surprise strike.

Pantsir is wheel truck mounted I think HQ-7A and HQ-17A are both got better mobility. We all use new phased array radars and they are all integrated with rest of air defence now anyway. Pantsir would be quite pointless for PLA if it is less mobile and heavier but no improvement at all. Russians use Pantsir for low level threat but still think new Tor system is better for short range which is basically HQ-17 but HQ-17A redid whole electronics and integration. New radars computers and everything even missiles have changed a bit like seekers, fins, and fuel type to improve energy and range.

So I doubt a small private company if they try and copy pantsir just for selling to other countries will be a very successful one. They will not have depth of knowledge and resources that government developers have. Definitely much less funding and will require investors. In the end, much better missile for purchase is available as HQ-7A or HQ-17A if something for short range is required. At least these can keep up with IFV and tanks on battlefield which the Pantsir cannot. All can perform air defence on the move as well. Anyway all these things are a problem of money.

In tests, the PLA found that the 35MM AA gun had the higher defensive efficiency. Short-range AA missiles are the least effective.

But even harder to believe is that the fixed-position 35MM AA gun is the true king of low altitude defense. They just can't move with the armor.

 

[serenity]

In tests, the PLA found that the 35MM AA gun had the higher defensive efficiency. Short-range AA missiles are the least effective.
View attachment 768880


But even harder to believe is that the fixed-position 35MM AA gun is the true king of low altitude defense. They just can't move with the armor.

AA gun is cheaper and that's where the efficiency comes from. AA gun is not as good against aircraft especially fast moving and turning aircraft which usually is at longer range is even at within range of guns. So guns effective range is much worse than something like HQ-7A and the further away a target is the worse its performance.

With these AA guns, they are okay for intercepting missiles that are coming towards something the gun is defending so the range is not a problem and the movement of the missile is not as great as aircraft. However modern missiles are very stealthy and quite small in size. This makes them harder to detect in time and hit. So AA guns is really not quite that good since it doesn't cover so many areas that missiles can cover but AA guns definitely useful for lower level threat and much cheaper.

 

[iLION12345_1]

In tests, the PLA found that the 35MM AA gun had the higher defensive efficiency. Short-range AA missiles are the least effective.
View attachment 768880


But even harder to believe is that the fixed-position 35MM AA gun is the true king of low altitude defense. They just can't move with the armor.

AA gun is cheaper and that's where the efficiency comes from. AA gun is not as good against aircraft especially fast moving and turning aircraft which usually is at longer range is even at within range of guns. So guns effective range is much worse than something like HQ-7A and the further away a target is the worse its performance.

With these AA guns, they are okay for intercepting missiles that are coming towards something the gun is defending so the range is not a problem and the movement of the missile is not as great as aircraft. However modern missiles are very stealthy and quite small in size. This makes them harder to detect in time and hit. So AA guns is really not quite that good since it doesn't cover so many areas that missiles can cover but AA guns definitely useful for lower level threat and much cheaper.

PA already has plenty of fixed AA guns in the form of Orliekons, very good systems indeed.
PA has also tested SPAAGs in the form of the Turkish Korkut, so they’re aware that these systems are an option too, that’s why I believe they may test similar Chinese systems too. But at the end of the day they will want a SR missile based SAM to move with armored columns.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I asked @PanzerKiel if he wants me to open a thread on effective air defence for armored columns... no response.

Well, what else you should expect from me.... As per your opinion, I'm already being used as a tool by someone for a specific agenda.... As per you, I'm also being used to clear up Imran Khan image since I'm being fed information by someone......

Zaheer Ahmad Babar appointed new Chief of Pakistan Air Force

Sorry for the long post - but you may hopefully from this get my point. Persons stating that Zaheer Ahmad Babar is not at good choice just because he does not have x flying hours or did not flew a particular fighter plane are looking at one element that per se do not tell whether he is / will...

defence.pk

People like me hold onto such things for a long time.

 

[CriticalThought]

Well, what else you should expect from me.... As per your opinion, I'm already being used as a tool by someone for a specific agenda.... As per you, I'm also being used to clear up Imran Khan image since I'm being fed information by someone......
View attachment 768931

Zaheer Ahmad Babar appointed new Chief of Pakistan Air Force

Sorry for the long post - but you may hopefully from this get my point. Persons stating that Zaheer Ahmad Babar is not at good choice just because he does not have x flying hours or did not flew a particular fighter plane are looking at one element that per se do not tell whether he is / will...

defence.pk

People like me hold onto such things for a long time.

I stand by what I said because it is not a personal attack on you. I even clearly stated that you are only fulfilling your duty. Now, you can argue with me that my words are an attack on your leadership, in which case I will open a thread and share what I know. What I know isn't much, I'll accept that openly, but it gives me reason to say what I say. And then you can give your opinion on whether I am right or wrong. But I don't feel there is any reason for hard feelings between us on a personal level. Even then, if I have caused any consternation to you personally, I sincerely apologize for that.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I stand by what I said because it is not a personal attack on you. I even clearly stated that you are only fulfilling your duty. Now, you can argue with me that my words are an attack on your leadership, in which case I will open a thread and share what I know. What I know isn't much, I'll accept that openly, but it gives me reason to say what I say. And then you can give your opinion on whether I am right or wrong. But I don't feel there is any reason for hard feelings between us on a personal level. Even then, if I have caused any consternation to you personally, I sincerely apologize for that.

I've never defended anyone... I'm in a habit of calling spade a spade.... You must have assessed me wrong.... There is a chance that I'm having more information about my profession than most of the people around here, but how you take it is purely your call.

 

[CriticalThought]

I've never defended anyone... I'm in a habit of calling spade a spade.... You must have assessed me wrong.... There is a chance that I'm having more information about my profession than most of the people around here, but how you take it is purely your call.

But your sources of information are not under your control. You are duty and honor bound to say only that which you hear. I am questioning those from whom you hear.

 

[PanzerKiel]

I've never defended anyone... I'm in a habit of calling spade a spade.... You must have assessed me wrong.... There is a chance that I'm having more information about my profession than most of the people around here, but how you take it is purely your call.

You may not find many people here who have sat in a F16 Blk 52 and driven a VT4 as well....
Much more....

 

[Maarkhoor]

You may not find many people here who have sat in a F16 Blk 52 and driven a VT4 as well....
Much more....

Iss Husn e Mujasam se kiyoun dartey ho bachoo...
Abhi Bachay hien husn ki pehchaan nahien hai.

 

[Bilal Khan (Quwa)]

Regardless of the article’s inaccuracies - Pakistani armor will be degraded in a very dispassionate way long before it makes contact with IA unless concrete steps are made to ensure air cover beyond the restricted LOMAD sphere. Can just imagine VT-4s, AK & AZ’s getting their tops blown off

IMO the JF-17 Block-I could be a great solution, especially if the PAF refits it with the KLJ-7A AESA radar and a good ECM pod. Unfortunately, from what I understand, there's little to zero capacity in place to enable land/air integration between the PAF and PA. Otherwise, I think the Block-I is a great potential CAS asset if we upgrade the radar add the GB6 JSOW-type and YJ-9E AGM to its arsenal (plus its BVR for addressing the Jaguar threat).

 

[Goenitz]

You may not find many people here who have sat in a F16 Blk 52 and driven a VT4 as well....
Much more....

Mara tum koi cheaph choph (chief) tau nahi.
On topic (no idea why it is drifting): Is there any mobile Oerlikon gun type solution available in friendly country? Tunguska performance is same as swiss guns?

 

[Signalian]

You may not find many people here who have sat in a F16 Blk 52 and driven a VT4 as well....
Much more....

Cobra ki front seat, F-22P ka commander's deck

Btw, Ignore button has been made for a reason, makes life easy.

I almost stopped reading when they called the Arjun capable.

VT-4 induction has not been digested by India.