Barack Obama confirms unmanned drone programme

[VCheng]

Like I said above, sooner or later, events will prove one point of view to be correct. What's the rush to convince?

 

[Developereo]

Like I said above, sooner or later, events will prove one point of view to be correct. What's the rush to convince?

"Behold", said the Zen master, "like the sparkling stream that hides the muddy pebbles beneath, so my vague words shall hide the fact that I never actually say anything at all."

 

[VCheng]

"Behold", said the Zen master, "like the sparkling steam that hides the muddy pebbles beneath, so my vague words shall hide the fact that I never actually say anything at all."

Of course, what I say only a few can understand; I do not worry at all about those who can not.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Perhaps you missed the part about the murderous deaths of thousands of US citizens, which made it imperative on the US government to provide them with justice under the authority of the Constitution? That has been done, and will be done.

You are repeating the same argument that has already been debunked - the US could argue that Mickey Mouse is behind every violent death and crime in the US and that it needs to 'hunt it down and do what needs to be done', based on your peculiar rationale - that does not give US actions abroad any legal legitimacy in the absence of official support by the nations being targeted, and or sanction by the UNSC.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Edited..fine..but that doent change that you supported the drone strikes as long as pak enemies are killed without giving a second thought to the "innocents" killed.

I don't support them at all, period.

The very, very, very occasional instance that the drones did in fact attack TTP leaders (or try to) gave me hope that the US was in fact cooperating with Pakistan and that the effort was a joint one, but that hope soon faded as it became obvious that US withdrawals from Eastern Afghanistan (allowing shelter to TTP elements escaping military operations in Afghanistan) and overwhelming focus on the Haqqanis and not the TTP, was in effect counterproductive to Pakistani COIN goals.

Dont tell me that till that day no innocent was killed....and only after baitullah's killing it all started...

Hence my opposition to ALL drone strikes now, as becomes painfully clear that the US has little interest in assisting Pakistan in its fight against the TTP and BLA/BRA terrorists, and may even be actively and or indirectly assisting them.

who cares man...if you want to second guess the americans be my guest...i give a damn...

just remember that threat to kill (which is just murder, a crime) and terrorism are not the same...and you are not a white caucasian where the benefit of doubt will be given to him....you are pakistani..need i say how you will be viewed ? be frank..

What part of my post pertains to 'terrorism' exactly - are you suggesting that my comment 'supported terrorism', in which case I would ask you to read the comments again to comprehend them properly - my comments advance an opinion about the POTUS based on the policies being authorized by the POTUS in Pakistan, policies I and many others consider to be illegal, unethical and counterproductive to the goals of stabilizing the FATA region, not least because of the hundreds of innocent men, women and children being killed as a result of those policies.

read my post clearly admin...clearly...

i said, "prior to today's acceptance " ...surely your views did not change today after obama accepted it right...? even before obama officially accepted it today you were maintaining that usa does this, usa does that...did you wait for offficial word of usa before doing that ?..no ..because its common sense...

similarly its common sense that both establishment and govt of pak are in american pockets and will not hesitate in selling the common pakistani as long as their pockets are being filled....and one day the pak establishment will tell too...like obama did today

No, the two situations are not 'common sense' - given that the official Pakistani position has been consistent on condemning the drone strikes and calling for them to end or be brought under Pakistani control, and the fact that Pakistan does not have the technology to conduct these strikes, it was obvious that only the US or some other ISAF nation was conducting the strikes. Among NATO nations, only the US has a demonstrated technological capability to conduct these strikes, so outside of Aliens from the Planet Mungo coming in to carry out the drone strikes, it was painfully obvious who was behind them, and Obama's admission merely cemented that knowledge.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

No one -- NO ONE -- with any diplomatic experience and least of all -- the usual amount of cynicism -- believe that. Women would not believe that, and we know they have plenty of experience with lying men, do we?

Neither you, nor the US, has offered a single iota of evidence suggesting that any institution in Pakistan had any knowledge of OBL hiding where he was - that is after all the point of 'hiding in plain sight' - and your own government has admitted that Pakistan provided key elements of the intelligence that allowed the US to build on to track down OBL.

Outside of brazenly lying, and apparently offering sexist comments, you can offer no denial backed by credible facts to the above.

Osama bin Laden is no ordinary criminal. What he did, vis-a-vis 9/11, could not be possible unless it was with state support, overt or covert. Likewise, his infamy and eagerness to be on global video made his visage well known.

Hi visage was 'well known' yet no one in the neighborhood has so far indicated that they ever saw OBL, suspected OBL was there, or passed on any information indicating OBL was there. Heck, your own government indicated that after months of sophisticated, imaginative and continuous surveillance of the compound SPECIFICALLY TO IDENTIFY OBL, they were only 40% to 50% certain, with only Panetta really confident enough to go ahead with the raid, and that too only because he was confident in the ability of US SF's to get in and out safely, even if OBL was not there.

We have gone through this before. Bugti's cause and himself have considerable international support while ObL and al-Qaeda have none. Still, even if we 'give' you Bugti, do you really think that it will absolve Pakistan of the fundamental duty of a sovereign state, which is the absolute control of one's territory when one's country is nearly a party to a conflict? Bugti's cause have nothing to do with 9/11.

Whether Bugti and his cause have 'considerable international support' does not change the fact that the terrorist leader and his terrorist organization are involved in an ethnic cleansing campaign of non-Baloch settlers in Balochistan, and have been involved in massacring non-combatants (baluch and non-baloch) such as educators, laborers and government workers who support the GoP, along with attacks on security forces that also result in civilians being killed.

Arguing that such a terrorist group and terrorist leader 'enjoys international support' as justification for the US sheltering and supporting him in Afghanistan is a pathetic and intellectually dishonest excuse for US support for terrorism/terrorists in other nations.

So Pakistan is either incompetent at being a sovereign state regarding territorial control, or unwilling to the same, or both. Which is it?

Pakistan is struggling with the same set of challenges in fighting an ideological insurgency that the US is, and its fight is complicated by the fact that the TTP finds shelter in vast regions in Eastern Afghanistan abandoned by US forces.

When the US can demonstrate complete control of Afghanistan, despite having immensely more military, economic and technological resources at its disposal, then you can question Pakistan about its success/failure in COIN.

The 'due process' here is how a US President followed US laws regarding his authority and the extent thereof. But if you want to go that route, do YOU agree with Osama bin Laden's version of 'due process' under Islamic jurisprudence when he effectively offfed the heads of nearly three thousands Americans?

Again, US due process, on its own, has no international legal legitimacy.

 

[VCheng]

...............................

Again, US due process, on its own, has no international legal legitimacy.

On its own? May be not. Coupled with its sole superpower status: Heck Yeah!

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

On its own? May be not. Coupled with its sole superpower status: Heck Yeah!

No, even with 'Hyper Super Duper Power Status' US due process, on its own, has no international legal legitimacy.

The 'legitimacy' you are referring to has nothing to do with 'legal or ethical legitimacy' - it is the legitimacy of the thug/feudal lord with the biggest/most guns and money used to silence all opposition - nothing legal or ethical about it.

 

[VCheng]

................. it is the legitimacy of the thug/feudal lord with the biggest/most guns and money used to silence all opposition .................

Thank you for admitting so clearly what matters. The rest is all rendered moot. And lest you get worked up, please remember that this is how human history has always worked, even during the times of Muslim supremacy, and always shall, no matter who is ascendant.

 

[AgNoStiC MuSliM]

Thank you for admitting so clearly what matters. The rest is all rendered moot. And lest you get worked up, please remember that this is how human history has always worked, even during the times of Muslim supremacy, and always shall, no matter who is ascendant.

What you believe I 'admitted' was not the subject of discourse - that has been 'admitted' time and again in various other discussions, that US legitimacy internationally when pursuing policies unilaterally is often nothing more than the legitimacy of the tyrant.

The argument on this thread has been over you and some other posters resorted to arguing about 'US due process' etc. as offering 'LEGAL INTERNATIONAL LEGITIMACY', which, as you admitted above, does not exist in the cases being discussed.

 

[VCheng]

...................the legitimacy of the tyrant......................

............. is all that matters. That is the universal truth, and everything else is fluff. Like it or not, that is just the way it has been, is and will be.

Please learn to deal with it, and you will be better off.

 

[unicorn]

US has blatantly target those people in Waziristan who are pro governmental and pro army in those hostile regions. Pakistan just simply cannot turn a blind in these issue. Few TTP thugs killed in Pakistan are not a big tactical or material advantage to us as they are hiding in the safe heavens in Afghanistan . And if we look at the stats it perfectly supports this logic as US drones have been mainly focused in North Waziristan where TTP is not dominant, infact more than 70 percent of drone strikes are in North Waziristan and US have killed majority of the pro government people TRIBAL ELDERS in South Waziristan. Few drones in our area of interest is only a deception by a false show of confidence in our interest which is to kill TTP. Clearly USA purposely wants TTP to attack Pakistan Army.

 

[Developereo]

............. is all that matters. That is the universal truth, and everything else is fluff. Like it or not, that is just the way it has been, is and will be.

Please learn to deal with it, and you will be better off.

I don't understand you.

We have been saying all along that US actions have no international legitimacy and are a case of "might is right". After 100 posts of laila majnoo, you finally accept it.

So what was the fuss all about?

 

[unicorn]

ONe of the notable incidents in 2011

80 people reportedly killed in U.S. drone strike in Pakistan

ISLAMABAD, March 17 (Xinhua) -- At least 80 people were killed in U.S. drone strikes launched Thursday morning in different parts of Pakistan's northwest tribal area of North Waziristan, reported local state-run Urdu TV channel PTV, but the report failed to give details other than saying 12 missiles were fired at different targets in the afore-said area.

Late Thursday morning, there came in the news that U.S. drones launched a strike in the Datta Khel area of North Waziristan. Initial reports by most of the local media said that two missiles were fired at a house in which militants were said to be holding a meeting inside, killing 4 people and injuring several others.

But the death toll has kept rising as more information came in from the remote area with inadequate communication facilities. Some local media reports said the target of the U.S. drones is a house at a village in the Datta Khel area in which a meeting was being held by local Taliban militants while others reported that the target was actually a tribal "jirga" or council of elders to resolve dispute over the ownership of minerals in the mountains in North Waziristan tribal region.

According to a tribal elder who asked to remain anonymous in a telephone interview from Miranshah, center of North Waziristan, the tribesmen from Madda Khel tribe were holding a meeting at Nawai Adda area, some 25 kilometers from Miranshah, when two U.S. drones fired four missiles at the participants of the tribal council at 11:30 am (local time)

The elder said that the strike killed 41 people including six tribal elders and some children.

The injured were later transferred to the hospital in Miranshah and some of them were in critical condition, said hospital sources.

The tribal elder rejected the reports that the target was a meeting held by militants. He said that all were local tribesmen. He said that the Madda Khel tribe had sold a chromite mine on 8.8 million rupees (slightly over 100,000 US dollars) to a man and both parties later disagreed over the payment method and the jirga was called to settle the dispute.

Member of National Assembly from the region, Kamran Khan, condemned the drone strike and said that mostly innocent people were killed and injured in the Thursday's strike.

Residents said that they had seen four drones hovering over the area before and after the attack. They said two aircraft fired missiles.

Thursday's strike is the 23rd of its kind in Pakistan since 2011 and also one of the most deadly strikes in the country over the last few years. To date, at least 187 people have reportedly been killed in such strikes since this year.

Even Pakistan Foreign office and Pakistan Ambassador to USA at that time protest and demand the apology.

In a rare statement, Governor Khyber-Pakhtunkhwa Masood Kasur, who also oversees the tribal belt on behalf of the president, condemned the attack. A press statement quoted the governor as saying that a tribal jirga was targeted in the attack and it had killed many tribal elders and Khasadar force personnel. “The Pakistani government and people will not tolerate such attacks. They are against the country’s sovereignty,” the statement added.

Ambassador Hussain Haqqani has also been asked to make a similar strong demarche with the US State Department.”

Pakistan furious as US drone strike kills civilians – The Express Tribune

80 people reportedly killed in U.S. drone strike in Pakistan

 

[VCheng]

I don't understand you.

We have been saying all along that US actions have no international legitimacy and are a case of "might is right". After 100 posts of laila majnoo, you finally accept it.

So what was the fuss all about?

You are only part way to understanding that might confers legitimacy. THAT is what I have been saying all along.

US actions ARE legitimate because of its MIGHT. The rest of the intellectual pooh-pooing doesn't matter.

I hope you can now get it.

Read my "admission" again, carefully:

On its own? May be not. Coupled with its sole superpower status: Heck Yeah!