I have some strong views here but not extreme
You are the one to talk. What right do you have over Kashmir to decide the fact that they need to live side by side with half a million of your troops.Maybe you should try living in a Police state before deciding the fate of Kashmir.Sounds like another sideline cheerer.
1. Why do you think Indian troops were posted in Kashmir in early 90s while they were completely absent before that?
2. What about Ikhwan, the brigade of surendered militants who are involved in counter-insurgency?
3. What about those people who vote in election?
4. What about the killings of non-Sunni Kashmiris at the hands of Jihadis?
5. Do you know how many innocents are killed and injured by Jihadi attacks?
6. Do you know how many surrendered militants fight alongside Indians against Jihadis? and do you know how many surrendered militants and their family members are killed by Jihadis?
7. Are pro-Pakistani kashmiris innocents and Pro-Indian Kashmiris non muslims? are those killed by Jihadis non-innocents? are those terrorists killed by Counter-insurgents innocents?
8. Do you believe media to be unbiased when it comes to Kashmir?
Even if Kashmiris were disillusioned with India for neglecting them thanks to the so-called freedom struggle they have become IMO fed up with Pakistan too.
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Concept of militant outfit is wrong.
They should join the Pakistan army and go on covert missions into Kashmir.
I just can't imagine militants not doing things wrong once or twice. They have no fear of court martials. I can't imagine them knowing good hand to hand combat like the army is trained for. Heck probably the only criteria needed to join them is "I want to kill Indians!!!" Missions are not accomplished like this. Sure we can drag this thing for eternity, but you have to ask yourself are we winning? I know India is spending millions onto Kashmir but still its not yet upto the amount where India can't afford it. I'm not against fighting it out with India when it comes to taking Kashmir. But we need to do things that work. Out of all the groups mentioned above, I think only Hizb has had some decent success rates, but nothing like what we need.
Asim,
I think Pakistan and Pakistanis can support all the terrorism/freedom fight it wants but these monsters are already creating problems in Pakistan and will continue to. The seeds of violence that Pakistan is hoping to plant in India are sprouting in Pakistan itself.
It would rather prefer if Pak supports terrorism against India because of enmity rather than so called sympathy with Kashmiri or Islam card. I have read some of your posts in WAB where you eloquently quoted Bulleh Shah yet here you support Terrorism and hate against Indians.
I would be pretty astonished if the Indian Muslims launch their Jihad, and hindus, sikhs etc. their version of Jihad against Pakistani Jihadis.
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Democracy has a funny way doesnt it? Are you saying Indians only sympathize for the minority Pundits, while the majority Kashmiri Muslim population has to live suppressed?
Not supporting violence, but supporting 700 000 of your troops to police the Muslim majority state is an oxymoron.
UnitedPak you are blissfully unaware of the demographics of Kashmir. Kashmiri Pundits are miniscule when compared to other Hindu(non-muslim) groups (Read today's news article where the nonmigrant Kashmiri Pundits have criticized the PM) . In fact the population of Kashmiris is little above the Dogras yet the seats are alloted in such a way the Dogras get less representation than they ought to get.
But how can you not sympathise with Kashmiris? they are being killed by freedom fighters/terrorists a freedom struggle which they have largely rejected and which is being fought in their stead by many foreigners? It is surprising to see donation boxes in Pakistani Muslim owned establishments asking for donation for Kashmir's freedom struggle/Jihad.
I put quite a bit of blame on Kashmiri Muslims who didn't object nor protect the non muslims when the militants came and started killing them and now they too live in the fear of the same terrorists.
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you guys seem seriously frustrated. Is that upon realising that Pakistan will never give up on Kashmir, even if you decide to cram another half a million troops in there?
Go on though, miss the whole point of this argument and steep down to more insults on Pakistan and its politicians. I love to see desperation.
Unitedpak you are missing the whole point of putting Armed forces there.
First Police is incompetent in counter-insurgency second as per the legal framework GoI is responsible for Defence in Kashmir third Kashmiri Police can be compromised.
Remember Lal masjid where the Jihadis were allowed to go scot free and look how much force was required. Balochistan, FATA etc. are areas which are now seeing massive deployments when situation is quite out of control.
Prevention is better than Cure.
PS: Kashmir has around 100,000 soldiers not 700,000 soldiers which is a ridiculously high figure IMO
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Keep in mind, there are many more muslims besides pakistani's who support the kashmiri freedom struggle. We know that afghani's, or should I say Mujahideen, gave you quite a shocker in Kargil. I'm sure they are willing to do it again.
They are giving more shocks to you and killing more Pakistani people.. Power to the Mujahideen anyone?
Not to mention, the vast influx of foreign arab fighters who are just itching to draw your blood.
Of course who is not afraid of the Pious arab Mujahideen who fight for Islam in Allah's Jihad.
Keeping sarcasm aside, this is just fanaticism which will affect Pakistan more than India...
I hope not too many Kashmiris are martyred in defending their motherland against foreigners fighting for their twisted agendas by quoting such high ideals as enshrined by the Prophet and the Quran.
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Vinod, some leaders have openly claimed that " a nation's terrorists can be another nation's freedom fighters." I think the world is starting to see through this WoT deception.
Bugti and Mehsud are freedom fighters too? Truth always triumphs.
Besides, no matter how much pakistan has tried to improve its image, it just doesn't look any better. foreigners still have the same opinion of pakistan as before. I'm guessing the pak strategists have no choice but to support these struggles.
Then Pak must work harder.. and society must fight the cancer.
People always thought of India as a poor and backward nation.. action speak louder than words... the results are in front of you...
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Oh ho ho as you are forgotting the Terrorism India is funding and supporting in Balochistan and Nepal and Sri Lanka just for fulfilling own agenda.
Nepal? Balochistan? Sri Lanka? you missed Bhutan, Bangladesh, Maldives, Mauritius, Seychelles, Indonesia, Myanmar ... and why not China, Afghanistan and Iran?
AS far as Indian Held Kashmir is concerned everyone knows the brutalities your sick army is committing in the Indian Held Kashmir.
How do you know? Every Kashmiri knows the brutalities the sick terrorists are committing in Kashmir...
The fake killings of innocent Kashmiris at hand of Indian Brutal Army Soldiers have become a normal thing.
You claim there are 700,000 Indian Soldiers in Kashmir..
Kashmir has population of 10million with around 6million Muslims..
If 1 Kashmiri Muslim is shot per annum by every Indian Soldier would mean that within a decade Kashmir would be empty of Muslims.
This is just absurd.
Please refer to the questions I have asked at the top...
PS: If those who were killed happen to be terrorists or their sympathisers I wouldn't shed crocodile tears..
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Vinod, I'm honest, but I will say this much that kashmiri muslims do not want indian rule.
I think the amount of people who vote in elections is proof of that even under the threat of being shot they vote.. Even in 47 65 71 and 99 Kashmiris helped GoI fight Pakistan why was that? there were four golden opportunities.
India COULD have had a chance to appease kashmiri's. they could have offered a lot more to the people and somehow have managed to convince the people that india would have been better for them.
What? Lot more? Kashmir gets funding worth billions of dollars per annum the day this stops the Kashmiris would start appeasing GoI IMO.. Kashmir has the least poverty in India and the least industrialization, agriculture etc.
Yet, it is the irresponsibility of your soldiers and psychological warfare that lost the support of the kashmiri people. Soldiers literally, walk in and take girls away for raping. So many people have dissappeared and are probably dead now, as the mass grave suggests.
Mass graves?? How do you know those mass graves are not built by terrorists? or had corpses of terrorists?
Existence of mass graves means people were killed and if those people are not located that means those were probably foreigners..
PS: There are verifiable records of terrorists abducting large number of Kashmiri women...
Indian soldiers who did what they did were punished for what they did...
Besides that, most of the indian public approve of holding on to kashmir while the pakistani public would rather let go for the sake of kashmiri's. this shows the kashmiri's, exactly who has the wrong views on their future.
This speaks of Pakistanis realising the folly of pursuing Kashmir.. I bet none of the Indians want to go get hold of Kashmir under Pak...
Unlike the pak army in balochistan, where we are focusing on pleasing the balochi people with relief. it will take a while, but the baloch are looking more for autonomy rather than independence.
I think the reports differ but what relief? Balochistan is one of the poorest state of Pakistan whereas Kashmir one of the richest...
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No one is supporting spiling blood.
uhhm,... have you read this thread? Asim, Assad, Dabong's views?
As far as stance of our political and military people is concerned we had done everything to bring peace and even we had put forward proposal for conducting Referendum in Azad Kashmir too to know if the entire region of Kashmir wants to be independent we are even ready for that just beacuse we want whatever the Kashmiris want.whereas India is not ready to accept any soultion to the Kashmir Issue and wants to continue with killing the innocent Kashmiris.
Till early 90's why wasn't Indian army killing innocent Kashmiris?? why the sudden passion for killing now??
Plebiscite cannot be held in the entire Kashmir region as per UN resolutions. if you have read them you will be aware..
Even if the referendum in Azad Kashmir declared it to be pro-India, GoI would still not like to have it as is clear from their stance.
There is no need for referendum in J&K as elections are held which have a very significant level of polling higher than many mainstream Indian areas(esp as compared to metropolitan cities) which is a referendum enough. If you want election result details I can google them or have someone file an application on your behalf as per RTI act if its possible and feasible.
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"Terror" has become such a loose word. You think the Kashmiris weren't terrified when your troops killed them and threw them in mass graves?
How do you know those being thrown in the mass graves were not terrorists or better foreign terrorists?
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I beg to differ, militancy is not the solution for lasting peace and I'm conviced if we allow freedom fighters to revive Kashmiri Jihad it will backfire on us.
Many muslims countries like Egypt, Bosnia, Yemen, Sudan, Somalia, Saudi Arabia and many CAR countries sent thousands of islamists to Afghanistan for juhad against the Sovjets. Doing this they actually exported extremism to save their own society. Look where they stand now, many of these extremists have returned to their countries with combat experience.
I'd hate to see Pakistani recruits in Kashmir, they'll come back to haunt us once they're done in Kashmir.
Have you closely read your rebuttal? You can't even spell correctly and now you claim intellectual superiority?
