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Bangladesh’s example: Give secularism, tolerance a chance in Pakistan

I think PK will start to improve in future and BD will go down. Just let come the BAL again. PK has batter geo-graphical importance and economical opportunities. PK is a nuclear armed country and it was bigger threats like USA, India. Moreover, they are victim of WOT. Was PK in such bad condition before 9/11? No. I think if the WOT is over and PK can make theie tribal people educated then PK will thrive.

No PK has nothing to learn from BD execpt developmental NGO activities and some rural level development activities. Rather I think BD learned more from PK when we were one country like how to run government and administration.

PK has cultutal diversity and its own class. No need to compare with BD.

BD's revenue comes from garment, remittance, shipbreaking, Pharmaceticals, textiles and now a days from outsourcing. No heavy industry yet. They reason of thriving Pharma industry is once upon a time there were many world renound phatmaceutical companise presented in BD that were acquired or leave their operations in BD later. So BD got world class experience inheriently.

PK will get money from more industies than BD's these industries including arms/defence industry.

Mate, don't sell yourself too short ! Bangladesh is a great country with a good future and you're highs have been achieved both with ingenuity and grit and thats something that anyone can learn from. I and most Pakistanis, just don't prescribe to Secularism, hence we don't believe that we can learn anything from BD in that context...otherwise, you've got some good things going on and we can and should learn from that; my personal favourite is the work done on micro-financing !
 
Whenever I see the title of this thread, this song keeps buzzing in my head,
so gentlemen lets give peace a chance and stop poking on shoulders!

 
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'Let there be no compulsion in religion' equals 'Let there be no compulsion in religion' . Period ! It talks about tolerance which is neither unique to secularity nor religiosity in political parlance ! The statement that a system of Governance derived from Islam is Secular, is an oxymoron !

Quran is meant to be used in addition to our own intelligence (67:10). One who does not do so can be called an 'oxy-moron'.

Where does the quran tell you to chose 'any' method of governance? Does the quran ever tell you to adopt "caliphate" or "islamist state" or "democracy"? No. The quran only gives you some protocols to be followed, such as grouping yourself together in community, allow for "mutual consultation" (which is basically:democracy) and "settle the disputes that arise among yourselves". Quran never says you have to be secular or islamist. According to Quran, religion is between you and God himself (again, a secular concept). You will not be held accountable for what corruption or injustice the state did or did not do.

Why? That is because God did not mean for you to be only "caliphate" or islamist or secular for that matter. Just "choose what best fits the circumstance" according to the specified protocols.

At this moment, Quranic values (not Wahhabi values) are best reflected through democracy and secularism. It is possible for an islamist state to reflect those values, but at present, it only leads to hypocrisy and remember that no specific "system" is specified in quran. You may continue to deny it but just pick up the Quran and see if the values of secularism and democracy are reflected in Quran or not?

Believe me, once upon a time i also used to believe that islamist state is good. Then when i studied the quran, my conception entirely changed.:tup: Indeed there is a reason why Europe and west is so advanced compared to the (mostly) backward east - they are following Quranic values in their state and governance for the most part. Kemal Ataturk adopted the same Quranic values, protocols and look where is Turkey today compared to pakistan.

At the end, I would not prefer to engage in any religious debate. You may not agree with me but lets not debate in religious lines. Lets just debate on the merits of democracy and secularism, compared to "islamic republic', which pakistan is now and which has failed spectacularly in most of pakistan's existence.
 
aazidane I think you are confusing 2 things.
There is no doubt that the west is much more advanced when it comes to technology and science.
And we must do everything in our power to learn from them and integrate this knowledge into our societies.

The west is, however, not more advanced when it comes to ideology or morality.
Consider this.
The greatest ideology that has come out of the west in our modern history has been socialism/communism.
While it has some ideas that are good, on the whole this ideology has failed.
Yet, our ideology, which is almost 1500 years old, is still thriving and still relevant to our modern society.

You say laws change by time, please tell me, which laws have changed.
Is murder legal now? how about rape or theft?
Laws only change when peoples morality changes.
And laws reflect that morality.
For Muslims, our Morality is firmly in Islam and thus our laws should reflect that.

Just owned that fcukin software dev exam! Now time to... Rusty and kobiraaz, you guys are so wronggg! :P

Rusty you are totally comparing apples and oranges.

Laws don't and are not supposed to "reflect that morality".

Law is a tool used by politicians and/or the governing class to maintain order and discipline in society by suppressing chaos and anarchy.

Example: under Shariah Law, thieves are punished by cutting their hands off, because that's how Arab leaders (before the Prophet's days) made sure the thief can't steal again - so when the number of hands that steal goes down, it becomes easier for the ruler to establish the legitimacy of their rule.
It has nothing to do with morality - in fact, morality tells us to forgive the thieves if they repent.

Now you might disagree with my version of morality (are thieves forgivable?), and that brings me to another point I'm going to raise: "Is the concept of morality universal? Is it the same in all societies? " No it isn't! And you all know it!

Then how come some activities, such as "raping", are considered immoral across all societies? Absolutely simple! Our ape ancestors who were more inclined to rape perished, because rape inhibits sexual selection, a very important aspect of evolution. Those apes GENETICALLY inclined to "feel guilty" formed societies where rape was discouraged - so their children had more attractive traits (looks and/or intelligence, because sexual selection was preferred). In the long run, these apes adapted better.

Most highly "immoral" activities (i.e. those considered immoral by most human races/civs) can be traced back to their origins as evolutionary obstacles that barred our ape ancestors from sustaining the survival of clans/tribes (early societies).


PS: excuse my layman language. I'm neither a lawyer nor a biologist, lol.
 
I think PK will start to improve in future and BD will go down

I don't think that's true. However, BD and Pak are really different countries, facing different problems, so the answers to them are also different. So, while secularism might work in BD, it's not going to work in Pak (and not going to be accepted either).

Our ape ancestors who were more inclined to rape perished

You're ancestors might have been apes, but mine certainly weren't.
 
Pakistan need tolerance & Unity. I wish to see Pakistanis united under one flag of great Cresent & Star:pakistan: keeping aside their ethnicity, Sect & religious/political views. Pakistan was very unfortunate when one of the Greatest leader in Muslim World & founder of Pakistan left Pakistanis alone. If M.A. Jinnah had lived for atleast 12-16 years, Pakistan story would be very very different now & i can BET you that Pakistan would be same as Turkey today (or may be much ahead of Turkey). Jinnah(R.A) was a great with strong & indepandant views & was very talented & educated.

P.S Pakistan is a very big & very diverse country & i think it doesn't need any role model only if it start following the steps of Jinnah(R.A). & still if Pakistan need a model than the most Pakistan can do is, follow the model of Turkey. As for Bdsh, with no offense i want to say that Bdsh is just doing every thing to please india(a country that no person give a fcuk about in Pakistan), sorry to say but Bdshis consider indians as Africans consider Americans, it is just like a proxy state of india & will soon reunite with india(this is my analysis & you are free to disagree).



I think you don't know much about Pakistan. Pakistan's culture is Sufism & majority people are followers of it, it teaches us tolerance.

Also the main problem in Pakistan is bad governance & lack of leadership, Pakistan can rise to the heights of sky today only if it gets a good leadership.

stop living in cuckoo land.

if we had this, if we had that, if did xyz etc
 
Quran is meant to be used in addition to our own intelligence (67:10). One who does not do so can be called an 'oxy-moron'.

Where does the quran tell you to chose 'any' method of governance? Does the quran ever tell you to adopt "caliphate" or "islamist state" or "democracy"? No. The quran only gives you some protocols to be followed, such as grouping yourself together in community, allow for "mutual consultation" (which is basically:democracy) and "settle the disputes that arise among yourselves". Quran never says you have to be secular or islamist. According to Quran, religion is between you and God himself (again, a secular concept). You will not be held accountable for what corruption or injustice the state did or did not do.

Why? That is because God did not mean for you to be only "caliphate" or islamist or secular for that matter. Just "choose what best fits the circumstance" according to the specified protocols.

At this moment, Quranic values (not Wahhabi values) are best reflected through democracy and secularism. It is possible for an islamist state to reflect those values, but at present, it only leads to hypocrisy and remember that no specific "system" is specified in quran. You may continue to deny it but just pick up the Quran and see if the values of secularism and democracy are reflected in Quran or not?

Believe me, once upon a time i also used to believe that islamist state is good. Then when i studied the quran, my conception entirely changed.:tup: Indeed there is a reason why Europe and west is so advanced compared to the (mostly) backward east - they are following Quranic values in their state and governance for the most part. Kemal Ataturk adopted the same Quranic values, protocols and look where is Turkey today compared to pakistan.

At the end, I would not prefer to engage in any religious debate. You may not agree with me but lets not debate in religious lines. Lets just debate on the merits of democracy and secularism, compared to "islamic republic', which pakistan is now and which has failed spectacularly in most of pakistan's existence.

Oxymoron - a figure of speech which is self-contradictory ! I'd love to be an oxymoron but I wouldn't know what that means ! :woot:

I think I should begin with a definition of Secularism first because we clearly understand it to mean differently ! George Holyoakes, who first coined the word 'Secularism' defines it as such :

“Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three:

The improvement of this life by material means.
That science is the available Providence of man.
That it is good to do good.

Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.”

Other definitions of Secularism that pop up are as follows :

‘that certain practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious belief’

‘…it asserts the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions’

‘…it refers to a belief that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact rather than religious influence’

‘…in European laicism, it has been argued that secularism is a movement towards modernisation, and away from traditional religious values’

‘…in political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government’

‘…secularism can also be the social ideology in which religion and supernatural beliefs are not seen as the key to understanding the world and are instead segregated from matters of governance and reasoning…and in this sense, secularism can be involved in the promotion of science, reason, and naturalistic thinking’.


Now the bold part are in direct contravention to Islamic Values. Islamic Philosophical Thought doesn't view Our Life and its very Purpose to be founded on purely human considerations without any higher purpose whatsoever for such materialism is quite the antithesis of the Islamic meaning of Life ! The Quran decrees that our sole purpose in life is to worship the One God and that worship can take the form of anything from ritual prayer to right action to an act of charity to pondering the nature of existence ! Whereas what the definition suggests is that the spiritual dimension of our lives play second fiddle to our wordily needs and not the other way around ! Furthermore the second part of the first bold part suggests that Secularism is mainly intended for people who consider 'theology to be inadequate, indefinite, unreliable or unbelievable', now as soon as a Muslim prescribes to the inadequacy, unreliability or unbelievablity of Islamic Theology...then he isn't a Muslim anymore and consequently there is little point arguing with him further on this topic !

And yes...might I even bother elucidating the incompatibility of the statement, which is a major premise behind Secularism, that 'Science is the available Providence of Man', with the Islamic concept of what or rather whom Providence is derived from ?

In the other definitions portion :

In the case of the first 3 bold statements, the first 2 are based on erroneous assumptions. The first bold statement reads 'it asserts the right to be free from religious rule and teachings'; the error, over here, lies in a failure to understand Islamic polity whereby a Muslim becomes subject to the Shariah Law as soon as he or she prescribes to the Islamic Faith. And what is the Shariah Law...well it is everything from political, economic, penal and dietary laws to those that deal with rituals, Jihad, standards of propriety and social laws of Islam. Now many of the aforementioned are concerned with one's private life but the rest concern a Muslim Community who can justify the presence of a political voice of their own and as such are supposed to regulate the affairs of the Community! As far as religious teaching is concerned; I understand the importance of having this from two facets, the first being the right of the majority to impart religious education to their children as per their own belief systems (and this is a very secular human right too) and for the Govt. to facilitate the provision of that by having proper courses on Islamic Studies so that a child is equipped not only with the tools to think critically but also to appreciate and understand the nuances of the Quran much more than he otherwise would have. And that brings me to the second reason, which is purely academic by the way : The policy of hushing up religion as a private affair between man and his God has failed miserably because in the name of that freedom so much hatred and venom filled Islam is being taught by private Madrassas to children as young as 4 or 5. The State, has a responsibility, to equip the child with a much more tempered down, much more humanistic version of Islam instead of risk letting them become the would-be extremists of tomorrow.

Onto the 3rd of the 3 bold statements which reads 'gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions’; Pray tell me...how does a Muslim individual who is supposed to help out his fellow Muslim in times of need by giving Zakat or helping him go for Hajj, reconcile that with the notion that Muslims collectively aren't supposed to do the same when they actually have more resources at their disposal to carry out those injunctions ? And isn't a Parliament and by extension the Govt, in a Muslim majority Country, a reflection of the collective will and resources of countless Muslim Individuals ?

And lastly the underlined part (to distinguish it from the rest :whistle:) implies a disassociation of the supernatural or spiritual as I would call it from the wordily and that dichotomy is not only foreign to Islamic Theology and Philosophical Thought but also the mode by which some of our Greatest Polymaths worked ! Hence why the promotion of science and reason is (or atleast was) intrinsically linked to Islam !

Lastly one must understand one other premise behind Secularism - That all religions and opinions are created equal ! Now if we were to prescribe to such a view then we'd have to negate the Islamic view point of how other religions got corrupted over time...hence the raison detre of Islam coming to Arabia ! This is not to say that its adherents are discriminated upon but simply a realization that not all view points are correct and deserving the same weightage as others. So as a Muslim it is incumbent upon us to allow other view points to have a bona fide space to express themselves but we mustn't either compromise on the Islamic injunctions that are made incumbent upon us as soon as we constitute a community with some political representation !

As for Mr.Ataturk...I do not doubt his sincerity to the Turkish Nation and so I will not comment on his person but the unbridled production and consumption of alcohol, of gambling, the absence of Islamic Family Laws etc., do not, in my humble opinion, make for a very good case for Quranic injunctions being followed !

And Pakistan's problems are, as I have incessantly alluded to before, are not because of Islam or Secularism but because of our abysmal state of Governance and 30 years of continuous conflict. Take the example of China, it isn't a Secular State, Communism by its very nature is hostile towards religion, and yet they are on track to become one of the greatest countries of the world. Similarly, the Muslim Empires of ages past were functioning with the Shariah Law as the Law of the Land, and the managed to carve out a great name for themselves in history ! So my friend...I can't stress enough that talking about Islam or Secularity...really is a moot point ! Its Governance that makes or breaks a nation !


P.S Religion was bound to come into the fray...when you're discussing Islamic State vs Secular State...because I dunno about you but 'Islam' isn't the name of my local football team...its a 'Religion' ! :woot:


And yeah...just my two cents ! :whistle:
 
So now we have to learned about Islam from a known Murtid. Murtid Shariar Kabir idea of secularism is pure mushrikism. This malaun will face death with the change of government along with secularism. Ai ****** ke to public ashta kaybor dia dibe ekdin.

Bangladeshis can learn how to dress properly from Pakistanis. People walk around half naked on the street. Disgusting

Bangladesh and Pakistan is two different animals all together. We may have similarities from personal level (Pan Islamic culture of SA) but totally different from state prospective. Bangladesh is language based whereas Pakistan is Islam based.
 
Oxymoron - a figure of speech which is self-contradictory ! I'd love to be an oxymoron but I wouldn't know what that means ! :woot:

I think I should begin with a definition of Secularism first because we clearly understand it to mean differently ! George Holyoakes, who first coined the word 'Secularism' defines it as such :

“Secularism is a code of duty pertaining to this life, founded on considerations purely human, and intended mainly for those who find theology indefinite or inadequate, unreliable or unbelievable. Its essential principles are three:

The improvement of this life by material means.
That science is the available Providence of man.
That it is good to do good.

Whether there be other good or not, the good of the present life is good, and it is good to seek that good.”

Other definitions of Secularism that pop up are as follows :

‘that certain practices or institutions should exist separately from religion or religious belief’

‘…it asserts the right to be free from religious rule and teachings, and freedom from government imposition of religion upon the people, within a state that is neutral on matters of belief, and gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions’

‘…it refers to a belief that human activities and decisions, especially political ones, should be based on evidence and fact rather than religious influence’

‘…in European laicism, it has been argued that secularism is a movement towards modernisation, and away from traditional religious values’

‘…in political terms, secularism is a movement towards the separation of religion and government’

‘…secularism can also be the social ideology in which religion and supernatural beliefs are not seen as the key to understanding the world and are instead segregated from matters of governance and reasoning…and in this sense, secularism can be involved in the promotion of science, reason, and naturalistic thinking’.


Now the bold part are in direct contravention to Islamic Values. Islamic Philosophical Thought doesn't view Our Life and its very Purpose to be founded on purely human considerations without any higher purpose whatsoever for such materialism is quite the antithesis of the Islamic meaning of Life ! The Quran decrees that our sole purpose in life is to worship the One God and that worship can take the form of anything from ritual prayer to right action to an act of charity to pondering the nature of existence ! Whereas what the definition suggests is that the spiritual dimension of our lives play second fiddle to our wordily needs and not the other way around ! Furthermore the second part of the first bold part suggests that Secularism is mainly intended for people who consider 'theology to be inadequate, indefinite, unreliable or unbelievable', now as soon as a Muslim prescribes to the inadequacy, unreliability or unbelievablity of Islamic Theology...then he isn't a Muslim anymore and consequently there is little point arguing with him further on this topic !

And yes...might I even bother elucidating the incompatibility of the statement, which is a major premise behind Secularism, that 'Science is the available Providence of Man', with the Islamic concept of what or rather whom Providence is derived from ?

In the other definitions portion :

In the case of the first 3 bold statements, the first 2 are based on erroneous assumptions. The first bold statement reads 'it asserts the right to be free from religious rule and teachings'; the error, over here, lies in a failure to understand Islamic polity whereby a Muslim becomes subject to the Shariah Law as soon as he or she prescribes to the Islamic Faith. And what is the Shariah Law...well it is everything from political, economic, penal and dietary laws to those that deal with rituals, Jihad, standards of propriety and social laws of Islam. Now many of the aforementioned are concerned with one's private life but the rest concern a Muslim Community who can justify the presence of a political voice of their own and as such are supposed to regulate the affairs of the Community! As far as religious teaching is concerned; I understand the importance of having this from two facets, the first being the right of the majority to impart religious education to their children as per their own belief systems (and this is a very secular human right too) and for the Govt. to facilitate the provision of that by having proper courses on Islamic Studies so that a child is equipped not only with the tools to think critically but also to appreciate and understand the nuances of the Quran much more than he otherwise would have. And that brings me to the second reason, which is purely academic by the way : The policy of hushing up religion as a private affair between man and his God has failed miserably because in the name of that freedom so much hatred and venom filled Islam is being taught by private Madrassas to children as young as 4 or 5. The State, has a responsibility, to equip the child with a much more tempered down, much more humanistic version of Islam instead of risk letting them become the would-be extremists of tomorrow.

Onto the 3rd of the 3 bold statements which reads 'gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions’; Pray tell me...how does a Muslim individual who is supposed to help out his fellow Muslim in times of need by giving Zakat or helping him go for Hajj, reconcile that with the notion that Muslims collectively aren't supposed to do the same when they actually have more resources at their disposal to carry out those injunctions ? And isn't a Parliament and by extension the Govt, in a Muslim majority Country, a reflection of the collective will and resources of countless Muslim Individuals ?

And lastly the underlined part (to distinguish it from the rest :whistle:) implies a disassociation of the supernatural or spiritual as I would call it from the wordily and that dichotomy is not only foreign to Islamic Theology and Philosophical Thought but also the mode by which some of our Greatest Polymaths worked ! Hence why the promotion of science and reason is (or atleast was) intrinsically linked to Islam !

Lastly one must understand one other premise behind Secularism - That all religions and opinions are created equal ! Now if we were to prescribe to such a view then we'd have to negate the Islamic view point of how other religions got corrupted over time...hence the raison detre of Islam coming to Arabia ! This is not to say that its adherents are discriminated upon but simply a realization that not all view points are correct and deserving the same weightage as others. So as a Muslim it is incumbent upon us to allow other view points to have a bona fide space to express themselves but we mustn't either compromise on the Islamic injunctions that are made incumbent upon us as soon as we constitute a community with some political representation !

As for Mr.Ataturk...I do not doubt his sincerity to the Turkish Nation and so I will not comment on his person but the unbridled production and consumption of alcohol, of gambling, the absence of Islamic Family Laws etc., do not, in my humble opinion, make for a very good case for Quranic injunctions being followed !

And Pakistan's problems are, as I have incessantly alluded to before, are not because of Islam or Secularism but because of our abysmal state of Governance and 30 years of continuous conflict. Take the example of China, it isn't a Secular State, Communism by its very nature is hostile towards religion, and yet they are on track to become one of the greatest countries of the world. Similarly, the Muslim Empires of ages past were functioning with the Shariah Law as the Law of the Land, and the managed to carve out a great name for themselves in history ! So my friend...I can't stress enough that talking about Islam or Secularity...really is a moot point ! Its Governance that makes or breaks a nation !


P.S Religion was bound to come into the fray...when you're discussing Islamic State vs Secular State...because I dunno about you but 'Islam' isn't the name of my local football team...its a 'Religion' ! :woot:


And yeah...just my two cents ! :whistle:

Very long post, as usual.:tup:

What I am saying is coming from the Quran itself. According to which, religion is a connection between an individual and God. (I will explain this below) State can only ensure that extremist scholars do not get the chance to intrude religious texts with their version of religion. This is state's responsibility. Only the parents or guardians of a person has the responsibility to educate children religiously. That is NOT state's responsibility.

Onto the 3rd of the 3 bold statements which reads 'gives no state privileges or subsidies to religions’; Pray tell me...how does a Muslim individual who is supposed to help out his fellow Muslim in times of need by giving Zakat or helping him go for Hajj, reconcile that with the notion that Muslims collectively aren't supposed to do the same when they actually have more resources at their disposal to carry out those injunctions ? And isn't a Parliament and by extension the Govt, in a Muslim majority Country, a reflection of the collective will and resources of countless Muslim Individuals ?

Isn't that an "individual" responsibility? Suppose you force everybody to give a certain % each year for charity. God says in the Quran "Charity must be intended to please God only no mattter what the sum is!". Now People will start to give charity to please you so that they don't end up in jail or are punished... How is that? That is why I said secularism will prevent all and any kind of hypocrisy. Those who will follow islam they will do so from their heart to please God. Those who don't will openly say we don't follow islam. This is the virtue of a secular state. There will be no hypocrisy or double-facedness.

Just like this, everything that you do must be intended to please God. So, if you make "islamic" laws mandatory, people will observe these laws to please you rather than God. Hypocrisy will ensue. Will you be following the Quran? No. As soon as your government falls, people will go back to their old ways of drinking alcohol and not giving charity.



And Pakistan's problems are, as I have incessantly alluded to before, are not because of Islam or Secularism but because of our abysmal state of Governance and 30 years of continuous conflict. Take the example of China, it isn't a Secular State, Communism by its very nature is hostile towards religion, and yet they are on track to become one of the greatest countries of the world. Similarly, the Muslim Empires of ages past were functioning with the Shariah Law as the Law of the Land, and the managed to carve out a great name for themselves in history ! So my friend...I can't stress enough that talking about Islam or Secularity...really is a moot point ! Its Governance that makes or breaks a nation !

That is true. But don't you think a secular state would automatically allow for a better governance? Now, you have mullahs in parliament who looks very "islamic" but actually are stealing as much as they can. Is that good? Wouldn't it be better if everybody adheres to their true personality?

As for Turkey, yes, alcohol is allowed. Those who wants to drink, does so. Everybody knows that Quran does not permit alcohol. There is no double facedness. Nobody wears religious turbans and dresses like extremists and then drinks alcohol. This is exactly what secularism prevents.

And please don't bring up the examples of medieval islamic empires. Their situation and our situation is vastly government. Abbasids did not have extremist wahhabi scholars who told all women to stay in homes forever etc. Quran is intended for all ages and all communities, not only medieval islam.
 
And please don't bring up the examples of medieval islamic empires. Their situation and our situation is vastly government. Abbasids did not have extremist wahhabi scholars who told all women to stay in homes forever etc. Quran is intended for all ages and all communities, not only medieval islam.

You see, what you're implying here is that if Pakistan is an Islamic state then all hell will break loose on minorities and those that do anything against the Quran. On the other hand I'm telling you that's not the case; in an Islamic state people are free to do what they want. In this context, Islamic state is simply a state which gives precedence/favour to Islam than other religions.
Nowhere does it say that in an Islamic state persecute those that drink, for example, does it?
The punishment for that is really Divine more than anything.
 
So now we have to learned about Islam from a known Murtid. Murtid Shariar Kabir idea of secularism is pure mushrikism. This malaun will face death with the change of government along with secularism. Ai ****** ke to public ashta kaybor dia dibe ekdin.

Bangladeshis can learn how to dress properly from Pakistanis. People walk around half naked on the street. Disgusting

Bangladesh and Pakistan is two different animals all together. We may have similarities from personal level (Pan Islamic culture of SA) but totally different from state prospective. Bangladesh is language based whereas Pakistan is Islam based.

YOu are being funny... Why you need to compare dresses? Its not all about dress, does it? I just seen last month, Zardari's wife get off from plane wearing Sari in Delhi. Is it Islamic?
More Pakistani drink alcohol in Pakistan than Bangladesh. More people get infected with HIV in Pakistan than Bangladesh. More people watches porno in Pakistan than Bangladesh. Did dress stop them committing those Murtad act? Now judge yourself.

Dari/Tupi does not make anybody Muslim but belief does. Dont be a child Al-Zakir. We talked about this thousand times already.
 
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